EXTremeWade 0 #1 March 31, 2009 Students and Audible Altimeters… Hello you all. I have never posted a question in this forum as I have not had a real concern up until now and I would like some advice. The question goes into two parts, but primarily, I ask, “should student skydivers be allowed to use audible altimeters during this immense learning phase or not”? When I mean learning phase, I mean AFF, from 0 jumps until they hit student status or A license. I feel that altitude awareness should be one of the most important factors during the learning phase and as I write this so much more comes to mind, but I will try and keep the question blunt. I feel that if the student relies on a BEEP to let them know where they are, they will become accustomed to not looking at their altimeter as much when they leave AFF and get with a coach. I know of a skydiver with a few jumps (>50) and he has problems pulling at the correct altitudes per the SIM and BSR’s requirements for his jump numbers. People know he has been pulling low, and although we are aware of it, it is now getting me to say something, and speak up as a Coach, and D licensed skydiver. I know it does not matter what rating you have, or what license you have, safety is paramount, so please help me keep on track here. I am coming to this post for honest help and advice. This man has been pulling low, and has multiple ditters, and just seems to have that “lost” look in the sky as if he just got there through sheer luck and monetary freedom. I feel that because of the audible he was allowed to use during the critical beginning phase, he has not been reliant upon his wrist mount like he should. I know that pulling at the correct altitude is a personal responsibility that a ditter wont do for you, or wrist mount, you have to do it yourself, so this is why I am troubled. To tie this one off, again, should students be allowed to use audibles in the AFF/Student phase? And the part where I said it ties off into two different questions, “what can we do about someone who shows signs of early negligence like pulling low, and not really surprised about it when confronted. I am ready to confront someone about it, but want some shoulders to lean on as I am not an AFFi so again ,thanks for you all lending an ear. Thanks you all. ~extreme Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
pilotdave 0 #2 March 31, 2009 I personally don't recommend an audible for at least 200 jumps. People love toys though, so if they NEED an audible to log their jumps for them, I recommend setting the breakoff and pull alarms 100 feet low. If they hear it and haven't already acted, they messed up. If they mess up every jump, it's probably time to put it away for a while. EDIT: For the record, an experienced AFF instructor once told me "that's dumb." Dave Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
EXTremeWade 0 #3 March 31, 2009 Yeah..like I said monetary freedom is something real here. This individual seems to have funding for what he wants, sees, and what everyone else raves about... Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
tombuch 0 #4 March 31, 2009 I don't like the idea of an audible for students because it does create a dependency on technology, rather than the eyes and a conventional altimeter coupled with ground based visuals. When I teach beginners, altitude awareness is very much front and center. We use the standard Circle of Awareness with a cycle of heading, altitude, look left/right. I teach the heading part as a visual check on the ground to both determine heading and altitude. The idea is to look at the ground then the visual altimeter and begin to build an "encyclopedia" of what the ground looks like at various altitudes, a bit of knowledge that will be especially helpful in the event of an altimeter failure (visual or audible). Using an audible would detract from this important learning process. If somebody really needs/wants an audible for logging of jumps, they are always welcome to carry it in a pocket. As for the second part of your question, if a low time jumper is consistently opening low it should be brought to the attention of the S&TA or DZO. That's not tattling, it is safety related and essential. The S&TA or DZO will then be able to explore the issue with the jumper, and if necessary provide remedial training or perhaps even ground the person for a short spell.Tom Buchanan Instructor Emeritus Comm Pilot MSEL,G Author: JUMP! Skydiving Made Fun and Easy Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
councilman24 37 #5 March 31, 2009 To pilotdave,, 100' is a little tight. 1/2 second or so. But as to audilbles for students. I've only really been involved in s/l progression training. In our case we decided to use them as a litteral dirt alert. I honestly don't remember what they were set at. 1500' I think with the training if you hear this pull your reserve without any delay or other action. Stability, cutaway. etc. Just pull the reserve. The intent was that a student NEVER heard the audible. To people that seem 'lost' in freefall or always a few seconds behind the decicion tree, I've delt with several students and low time jumpers like that. One, well off student status, fought for stability until 500' and lived. Even when I saw her bag leave I thought she was dead. Her Fury opened faster than ever. Other completely forget the dive plan, the opening altitudes or order. One almost killed me on a ballon jump by exiting early but before I could change my mind about letting go and opening underneath me. The same jumper failed on separation and hit another friend from above during the friends opening. Cutaway and reserve on the aware jumper. Broken femur, main deployment and landing (in that order) for the lost jumper. He finally decided that he wasn't quite sharp enough for skydiving. Usually these lost souls are older. But not always. They are dangerous to themselves adn others.I'm old for my age. Terry Urban D-8631 FAA DPRE Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
peregrinerose 0 #6 March 31, 2009 I won't let students jump with them, for the reasons you already outlined. If a student has an audible and wants it to log jumps, that's fine, it can go in a pocket. Your individual doesn't sound like a problem with regard to audibles, he sounds like a problem in general. Have you talked to the DZO? S&TA? AFFIs? How low is he pulling? Personally, I'd ensure that he gets grounded for a day the next time he pulls low, and grounded for even longer should the probelm persist (and I don't take groundings lightly... I've only pushed for a grounding once in 2 years of being an AFFI) Do or do not, there is no try -Yoda Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Fast 0 #7 March 31, 2009 If a student is incapable of maintaining proper altitude awareness without an audible altimeter, they don't belong skydiving. The thing about visual altimeters is that in most cases you can see that it is malfunctioning and revert to using your eyes to look at the ground. In the case of audibles, you don't know it isn't working until you have blown through the appropriate action altitudes. Don't get me wrong, I use one as an experienced skydiver, but in any type of learning phase I don't like the concept. I would rather not have to teach my students that "if you hear the thing screaching in your ear pull your reserve" cause it's one more thing they have to remember and I trust the AAD to keep them from hitting the ground at freefall speeds should I fail as an instructor.~D Where troubles melt like lemon drops Away above the chimney tops That's where you'll find me. Swooping is taking one last poke at the bear before escaping it's cave - davelepka Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
EXTremeWade 0 #8 March 31, 2009 You all thank you so much for the great info. To answer your questions... No, I have not yet spoken up about it. I called someone about him this morning, and we both are in agreement that it is going to happen now and esp. after you alls experience in the matter and the comments that are all in the same in nature. I am going to speak up, please don’t worry. I know who to talk to and how. That is easy. His pulls are from what others say form their own deployments in reference to his, and from the ground observations, he is getting it out around 2,000 AGL. I know. It’s awful, and it’s going to cease. Those ditters have saddle altitudes and I am going to use those nifty pieces of technology to prove the safety concern here. To all thank you. This post will be printed out, and used for my defense for highlighting this individual, and grounding him is something that I won’t blink twice about. After going to safety day, and then reading the wonderful article in Parachutist in the April addition of this year, the statistics speak for themselves, and low pulls are problems that create more as they go along. Thank you all again for this help, advice, mentorship in the issue. ~Wade Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
pilotdave 0 #9 March 31, 2009 Quote100' is a little tight. 1/2 second or so. That's the idea. It's low enough that if it surprises you, you messed up. But it's high enough that you can still break off or pull safely, very close to your assigned altitude. I'm not talking about for students. IMO, audibles for students are completely out of the question, except like you suggested set very low as a last resort backup. I'm talking about newly-licensed jumpers, anyone new to audibles, or anyone that got an audible because of a problem with altitude awareness. Dave Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Reginald 0 #10 March 31, 2009 QuoteYour individual doesn't sound like a problem with regard to audibles, he sounds like a problem in general. Have you talked to the DZO? S&TA? AFFIs? Well said."We've been looking for the enemy for some time now. We've finally found him. We're surrounded. That simplifies things." CP Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
DanG 1 #11 March 31, 2009 I don't like audible altimeters for students. They build bad habits. I'd also be a little scared of giving them to static line studens like you described. I've had audibles go off under a perfectly good canopy. I'd be worried that the student thought the audible knew something they didn't and at the best get freaked out, and at the worst start pulling handles. - Dan G Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
wmw999 2,334 #12 March 31, 2009 If a student has enough things to keep track of that they need an audible to help, it might be smarter to give them fewer things to keep track of. That's the whole purpose of being a student, is to incorporate knowledge that is needed to be automatically accessible. If they can't manage skydiving without an audible (and it's not because they're special-needs), then it might not be the best sport for them. When things go to shit, it's best to have the basics down pat. Wendy W.There is nothing more dangerous than breaking a basic safety rule and getting away with it. It removes fear of the consequences and builds false confidence. (tbrown) Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
RafaelYP 0 #13 March 31, 2009 In S/L when we began to command we counted for open: 1001, 1002, 1003… At certain moment we start to open watching the altimeter and we used audible so that if one goes of the established height, sound. For example, we jump from 6000 and we open to 4500, but we put the audible at 4000. And it serves to the instructor to know the height what the student opened if not jump with him.Quote Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites phoenixlpr 0 #14 March 31, 2009 I was really sure what to do as a student when I heard my Pro-track screaming on a high speed mal..... Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites DougH 270 #15 March 31, 2009 QuoteI was really sure what to do as a student when I heard my Pro-track screaming on a high speed mal..... I can see a benifit in that situation. I do wonder what possible reactions a student might have if they activate their audible while they are under a good canopy."The restraining order says you're only allowed to touch me in freefall" =P Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites EXTremeWade 0 #16 March 31, 2009 Thank you all so much! Great information. Great knowledge! Experience is evident in these posts. Kudos. Glad to be here! ~Wade Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites chuckakers 419 #17 March 31, 2009 Quote His pulls are from what others say form their own deployments in reference to his, and from the ground observations, he is getting it out around 2,000 AGL. You are really asking two very different questions. On Mr. Low Pull, given your statement above, I'd say this guy needs some pretty serious intervention before being allowed back in the jump plane. In fact, it surprises me that the DZO hasn't fixed this guy already. Anyone with such a severe loss of time and altitude will almost certainly get hurt sooner or later, probably sooner - like this weekend. Additionally, if he can't keep track of time during the skydive, you have to wonder what else is getting past him, like almost everything almost all the time. I'm not sure if giving the guy audiables is helping or hurting. He may be waiting to hear something and never does. Not hearing an audible can also be a sign of someone who is overwhelmed on a skydive. Making things more complicated is very seldom affective in skydiving, and it sounds like adding audibles may just be requiring more thought than this guy can muster. On the audibles on students in general: I would NEVER use an audible on a student as an altitude monitoring devise. As you well know from your low pull dude, temperal distortion (losing track of time) is one of the most dangerous things that can plague a jumper. Students must learn to use their internal clock along with reference visuals and altimeters to develop a keen sense of altitude awareness. Allowing them to use an audible to monitor various altitudes will only create a dependency on them, and adds a degree of complexity to the jump that many students may not be ready for. With that said, we did use audibles at the DZ I owned (Skydive USA, aka party central) as a "possible emergency alert". They were set for an altitude well below the students primary AND secondary canopy deployment altitudes (1500 feet if I remember right). Students were taught that if they heard the audible, they were to immediately check for a good canopy (in case it went off by accident while the student is already under a good canopy), then take the appropriate action. We also found them to be a pain in the ass to keep up with and eventually ditched them. Ahhh, simplicity.Chuck Akers D-10855 Houston, TX Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites EXTremeWade 0 #18 March 31, 2009 Chuck...thanks my man. You are right. I did branch off and say that I would ask 2 different questions. I just had a talk with key personnel at my DZ and we are on board about this guy. It’s been noted, and like I said earlier today in the thread, that I was coming here sooner than later, and getting what was paramount addressed-safety. I don’t know if all he does in life slips him by, but his altitude awareness does, and this weekend is coming up, he will be there for certain, and the brakes are already being applied to his adventurous lifestyle as a "skydiver" You all have been great! You guys are people I look up to, and respect. Know that I am doing something about it! I already have! You all's strong convictions have paralleled in concurrence with my original beliefs about this whole ordeal and it is nice to see that. Thanks again you all! Thanks Chuck! Backing me up as well as the others fuels a productive, and safe fire for the guy in mind, and the people around him on the DZ! B/S ~Wade Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites riggerrob 613 #19 April 1, 2009 Audible dirt alerts are useless for the worst students, because when people get scared, they go deaf. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites riggerrob 613 #20 April 1, 2009 Maybe you can use his fancy electronic gadget against him. When the DZO and S&TA confront him, they should ask to read the last few dives on his audible altimeter. If the fancy electronic gadget says that he consistently pulled low, they have "hard" evidence. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Para5-0 0 #21 April 1, 2009 It appears you have gotten a wealth of information that I agree with whole heartily. I do not allow students at our DZ to use Audibles and our pro-shop knows it. (For all of the reasons above). As a key note, I do have an audible that I intentionally remove every so often for a period of time. Remember it is an aid not a concrete solution. The reason I remove it is due to the fact I become used to it so it is not alarming. I like ground references backed up by wrist and/or chest mounted altimeters to be my primary deterrent from the surface. If a beep helps out to confirm the aforementioned, great. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites erdnarob 1 #22 April 1, 2009 Better yet riggerrob, if you use a Vigil II and a Vigil interface you can download the data of any suspect jump in your computer and show the person on a graph (in color) and with printed figures what really happened in the air with a lot of precision (time, altitude, speed...) That can even be used as an evidence in case of lawsuit. This is the way I used to determine that my Katana was opening with an average of 600 ft on ten jumps. Coming back to the use of a beeper for a student, it seems to me that one set up at 1500 feet therefore well above the student altitude opening is a good solution. Personnally, I jump with two beepers, one Time Out which really wakes me up and the Protrack as a computer. First warning is set most of the time at 5000' after that I used my altimeter.Learn from others mistakes, you will never live long enough to make them all. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Chubba 0 #23 April 1, 2009 I definitely do not think a audible is good for AFF/students, I got mine @ 50 jumps and nearly regret it. I wanted to build my altitude awareness for a 100 - 200 before I got one, but the CI insisted VERY strongly that I require one for backfly's/backtracks and my first attempts at sitflying. I set my optima at 4500,3500,2000 I always check my visual alti during the skydive and before breakoff. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites EXTremeWade 0 #24 April 1, 2009 Get rid of it then man...you just answered your own concerns, and get that 100 jumps in then...you don't need to nearly do something...DO IT Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites EXTremeWade 0 #25 April 1, 2009 Quote Maybe you can use his fancy electronic gadget against him. When the DZO and S&TA confront him, they should ask to read the last few dives on his audible altimeter. If the fancy electronic gadget says that he consistently pulled low, they have "hard" evidence. EXACTLY....that is the move I make this Saturday Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Prev 1 2 Next Page 1 of 2 Join the conversation You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account. Note: Your post will require moderator approval before it will be visible. Reply to this topic... × Pasted as rich text. 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phoenixlpr 0 #14 March 31, 2009 I was really sure what to do as a student when I heard my Pro-track screaming on a high speed mal..... Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
DougH 270 #15 March 31, 2009 QuoteI was really sure what to do as a student when I heard my Pro-track screaming on a high speed mal..... I can see a benifit in that situation. I do wonder what possible reactions a student might have if they activate their audible while they are under a good canopy."The restraining order says you're only allowed to touch me in freefall" =P Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
EXTremeWade 0 #16 March 31, 2009 Thank you all so much! Great information. Great knowledge! Experience is evident in these posts. Kudos. Glad to be here! ~Wade Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
chuckakers 419 #17 March 31, 2009 Quote His pulls are from what others say form their own deployments in reference to his, and from the ground observations, he is getting it out around 2,000 AGL. You are really asking two very different questions. On Mr. Low Pull, given your statement above, I'd say this guy needs some pretty serious intervention before being allowed back in the jump plane. In fact, it surprises me that the DZO hasn't fixed this guy already. Anyone with such a severe loss of time and altitude will almost certainly get hurt sooner or later, probably sooner - like this weekend. Additionally, if he can't keep track of time during the skydive, you have to wonder what else is getting past him, like almost everything almost all the time. I'm not sure if giving the guy audiables is helping or hurting. He may be waiting to hear something and never does. Not hearing an audible can also be a sign of someone who is overwhelmed on a skydive. Making things more complicated is very seldom affective in skydiving, and it sounds like adding audibles may just be requiring more thought than this guy can muster. On the audibles on students in general: I would NEVER use an audible on a student as an altitude monitoring devise. As you well know from your low pull dude, temperal distortion (losing track of time) is one of the most dangerous things that can plague a jumper. Students must learn to use their internal clock along with reference visuals and altimeters to develop a keen sense of altitude awareness. Allowing them to use an audible to monitor various altitudes will only create a dependency on them, and adds a degree of complexity to the jump that many students may not be ready for. With that said, we did use audibles at the DZ I owned (Skydive USA, aka party central) as a "possible emergency alert". They were set for an altitude well below the students primary AND secondary canopy deployment altitudes (1500 feet if I remember right). Students were taught that if they heard the audible, they were to immediately check for a good canopy (in case it went off by accident while the student is already under a good canopy), then take the appropriate action. We also found them to be a pain in the ass to keep up with and eventually ditched them. Ahhh, simplicity.Chuck Akers D-10855 Houston, TX Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
EXTremeWade 0 #18 March 31, 2009 Chuck...thanks my man. You are right. I did branch off and say that I would ask 2 different questions. I just had a talk with key personnel at my DZ and we are on board about this guy. It’s been noted, and like I said earlier today in the thread, that I was coming here sooner than later, and getting what was paramount addressed-safety. I don’t know if all he does in life slips him by, but his altitude awareness does, and this weekend is coming up, he will be there for certain, and the brakes are already being applied to his adventurous lifestyle as a "skydiver" You all have been great! You guys are people I look up to, and respect. Know that I am doing something about it! I already have! You all's strong convictions have paralleled in concurrence with my original beliefs about this whole ordeal and it is nice to see that. Thanks again you all! Thanks Chuck! Backing me up as well as the others fuels a productive, and safe fire for the guy in mind, and the people around him on the DZ! B/S ~Wade Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
riggerrob 613 #19 April 1, 2009 Audible dirt alerts are useless for the worst students, because when people get scared, they go deaf. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
riggerrob 613 #20 April 1, 2009 Maybe you can use his fancy electronic gadget against him. When the DZO and S&TA confront him, they should ask to read the last few dives on his audible altimeter. If the fancy electronic gadget says that he consistently pulled low, they have "hard" evidence. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Para5-0 0 #21 April 1, 2009 It appears you have gotten a wealth of information that I agree with whole heartily. I do not allow students at our DZ to use Audibles and our pro-shop knows it. (For all of the reasons above). As a key note, I do have an audible that I intentionally remove every so often for a period of time. Remember it is an aid not a concrete solution. The reason I remove it is due to the fact I become used to it so it is not alarming. I like ground references backed up by wrist and/or chest mounted altimeters to be my primary deterrent from the surface. If a beep helps out to confirm the aforementioned, great. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
erdnarob 1 #22 April 1, 2009 Better yet riggerrob, if you use a Vigil II and a Vigil interface you can download the data of any suspect jump in your computer and show the person on a graph (in color) and with printed figures what really happened in the air with a lot of precision (time, altitude, speed...) That can even be used as an evidence in case of lawsuit. This is the way I used to determine that my Katana was opening with an average of 600 ft on ten jumps. Coming back to the use of a beeper for a student, it seems to me that one set up at 1500 feet therefore well above the student altitude opening is a good solution. Personnally, I jump with two beepers, one Time Out which really wakes me up and the Protrack as a computer. First warning is set most of the time at 5000' after that I used my altimeter.Learn from others mistakes, you will never live long enough to make them all. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Chubba 0 #23 April 1, 2009 I definitely do not think a audible is good for AFF/students, I got mine @ 50 jumps and nearly regret it. I wanted to build my altitude awareness for a 100 - 200 before I got one, but the CI insisted VERY strongly that I require one for backfly's/backtracks and my first attempts at sitflying. I set my optima at 4500,3500,2000 I always check my visual alti during the skydive and before breakoff. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
EXTremeWade 0 #24 April 1, 2009 Get rid of it then man...you just answered your own concerns, and get that 100 jumps in then...you don't need to nearly do something...DO IT Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
EXTremeWade 0 #25 April 1, 2009 Quote Maybe you can use his fancy electronic gadget against him. When the DZO and S&TA confront him, they should ask to read the last few dives on his audible altimeter. If the fancy electronic gadget says that he consistently pulled low, they have "hard" evidence. EXACTLY....that is the move I make this Saturday Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
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