WS specific AAD?

[d123 1]

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As for the flaring device, it already exists and is being used on cargo drops for military applications, check out Airborne systems(para-flite),Strong's web site or google JPADS.

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Finally I believe the automatic flare device proposed above has been made totally unnecessary by a new and radical reserve parachute that does not require any flaring. I believe a picture of it can be found on 6.2.14 of the poynter manual. I believe this new invention was named the Piglet XL-30.

I don't know how DSE feels about this but for me is like "Crap!! There goes my retirement plans! Wait ... maybe I can get my job back." I want to take the time to thank you both for destroying my dream.

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You should go ahead and try it.

I'll rather take my chances with my newbie flare than landing something with no flare
Back to the topic. Is cool to learn new stuff everyday so this thread, IMMO, is really good.

Lock, Dock and Two Smoking Barrelrolls!

[skybytch 259]

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There is no cure for human stupidity.

Even the best, most experienced jumpers out there that can screw up - and most of them will freely admit that they have in the past and could easily do so again. If making a mistake in the air equals stupidity then we are all idiots.

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So, what is broken here?

The same things that were broken when audibles, RSL's and AAD's were originally developed. Somebody got tired of hearing about people dying and decided to come up with a way to prevent further deaths from the same causes. Luckily for those who are still alive because they had an audible/RSL/AAD, the people who originally developed them didn't listen to the folks who were saying these items weren't needed and/or would never work.

[gjhdiver 0]

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The same things that were broken when audibles, RSL's and AAD's were originally developed. Somebody got tired of hearing about people dying and decided to come up with a way to prevent further deaths from the same causes. Luckily for those who are still alive because they had an audible/RSL/AAD, the people who originally developed them didn't listen to the folks who were saying these items weren't needed and/or would never work.

I believe this to be a fallacious argument. When you try to make somehting idiot proof, nature just develops a better idiot. Back when I started, the most common cause of fatalities was the no pull, either of the main, or more commonly, of the reserve after a cutaway. We solved that with reliable AADs.

Now, it's dolts flying themselves into the ground under good canopies. That's going to prove harder to stop.

When I was a student, we didn't have AADs. We were essentially told to "pull or die". We had to reply on being very heads up on our procedures. There's nothing wrong with the new safety improvements, but over the years, we have fostered a generation or two of jumpers who have replaced common ideas of currency and piloting with an over reliance on the magical properties of mechanical devices. I meet many jumpers with thousands of jumps who last practised emergency procedures on their first jump course.

But I digress.....

[skybytch 259]

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I believe this to be a fallacious argument.

Why is it fallacious? Wasn't the Cypres (first mostly reliable AAD) developed because somebody got tired of people dying from no-pulls? Wasn't the dirt alert first developed because someone got tired of people dying because they lost altitude awareness?

[gjhdiver 0]

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I believe this to be a fallacious argument.

Why is it fallacious? Wasn't the Cypres (first mostly reliable AAD) developed because somebody got tired of people dying from no-pulls? Wasn't the dirt alert first developed because someone got tired of people dying because they lost altitude awareness?

Indeed. The point I was making is that really what they have done is just allowed dumb people to move their accidents to another part of the skydive.

[fcajump 153]

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I believe this to be a fallacious argument.

Why is it fallacious? Wasn't the Cypres (first mostly reliable AAD) developed because somebody got tired of people dying from no-pulls? Wasn't the dirt alert first developed because someone got tired of people dying because they lost altitude awareness?

Indeed. The point I was making is that really what they have done is just allowed dumb people to move their accidents to another part of the skydive.

And given the rest of us the chance to come home on a day when everything went wrong (or just brainlock) and reconsider our choices in life.

I have never had an AAD save, and don't intend to. But I just bought my third Cypres and prefer to jump with one. It is no substitute for EP (practice and use), and has its limitations. But I want the added chance to come back and reconsider.

I am NOT a WS flier, but I think that if I were getting into it, I would evaluate the entire market of AAD's, their features and limitations and then decide whether or not I would be safer (or at greater risk) with an AAD on a WS specific rig.

Nothing is without risk. Even wearing a reserve introduces risks that do not exist without it (no reserve = no chance of a double deployment). But most of us have concluded that the benefit outweighs the introduced risk.

Reserves = YES
Square reserves = No*
Square reserves = YES*
(*depends on when/who you are)
2nd Reserve = No
AAD's in the 80's = No
AAD's in the 90's = YES
Altimeter = yes
Dytter = no/yes (argument found in other threads)
Anti-gravity boots = YES

Thanks to those who have learned and built gear in time to let me come along to enjoy the relatively conservative life of large ram-air mains, large ram-air reserves, modern AAD's, dytters, altimeter(s) on each jumper, etc...

I do want to jump, I understand the risk, but I don't wish to push the edge until I fall off if I can use the tools to avoid it.

JW

Always remember that some clouds are harder than others...

[The111 0]

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The true value of an AAD is in the freefall lost altitude awareness realm. The "in case I get knocked unconsious" argument is statistically insignificant, and often compromised with reserves that would be unsurvivable without pilot input.

You may be right about statistical insignificance, but I could also tell you that double mals are statistically insignificant, and I am pretty sure I remember you writing about living through at least one of those.

In my short time in the sport, I have never pulled significantly lower than planned due to loss of awareness (outside of AFF)... however I have on three different occasions been less than 18 inches away from a collision with closing speeds that would have knocked me out if they didn't kill me (and unfortunately 1 of those 3 was my fault). No, those "near misses" should not be occuring, but they have. Bigway wingsuit events are still a relatively new thing and the closing speeds we have in wingsuits can be silly as you know. More than once I've been hanging out 100 feet above a formation shooting pictures only to have somebody dive bomb just past my head trying to put on their brakes before they plow into me or the formation they're arriving at late.

Whether it's a significant risk or not, and whether anybody else deems it silly or not, the primary reason I jump an AAD is for when I can't pull, not for when I don't. And for this purpose I am fairly confident my AAD will work with or without a wingsuit.

To whomever asked if we know for sure that unconscious wingsuit freefall is greater than 78mph... I guess we don't know, for sure. I have found however that the "flat spin" is a bit of a myth as I have never observed or experienced one (not counting the intentional) truly "flat" spin. Most out of control maneuvers are tumbles... and if you are in a flock descending at 75mph, and somebody gets burbled and tumbles out, watch how FAST they drop away from the flock, and that is a person who is still conscious and trying to recover. Even if he does recover 2 seconds later, he'll be 500 feet low. I've seen it dozens of times.

www.WingsuitPhotos.com

[pilotdave 0]

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I have found however that the "flat spin" is a bit of a myth as I have never observed or experienced one

I can't watch it right now, so I hope this is the video I'm thinking it is...

http://www.skydivingmovies.com/ver2/pafiledb.php?action=file&id=3107

Dave

[The111 0]

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I can't watch it right now, so I hope this is the video I'm thinking it is...

http://www.skydivingmovies.com/ver2/pafiledb.php?action=file&id=3107

Dave

Not sure if that is the video you wanted... it is first person POV and is hard to tell exactly what's happening but it definitely looks like a tumble-spin to me.

The thing is, I've seen video of AFF students in a "flat spin"... it's something that can happen to anybody in any apparel if they make the wrong mental and physical inputs and get stuck in a certain rut. It's kind of like when you're learning to sitfly and you do a 2-way and end up orbiting each other. User input is actually adding to the "downward spiral" (literally). It's a self-perpetuating condition. I have no proof (and don't intend to try to get it), but I really doubt an unconscious person would be in any sort of recognizable "spin", wingsuit or not.

www.WingsuitPhotos.com

[LouDiamond 1]

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but I really doubt an unconscious person would be in any sort of recognizable "spin", wingsuit or not.

I have spoken to that woman in that video personally and online about that jump and it is apparent that she is in a violent flat spin( the thread on this can be seen here . I have also seen a tandem in a flat/side spin to the point where the people were unconscious and subsequently died( Strong tandem sidespin video) and I personally watched it happen to Chris Martin.

My point is that it can happen in a wingsuit, on a tandem and even under a canopy so it is not unheard of or outside of the parameters of possibility for an unconscious person to be in a spin. In fact, if they are already in a spin,once they go unconscious, their limbs are pulled outward, away from their body and held in that position by the G forces generated from the spin. The speed of the spin actually increases once they go unconscious and they loose control of their limbs. The key factor in all of these situations is that there has to be a initiating incident that starts the spin/instability. A person knocked completely unconscious, say by a violent dock on a RW jump, falls similar to a dead person,which is back to earth,limbs above the torso similar to backflying, rotation and slight tumbling can occur.

"It's just skydiving..additional drama is not required"
Some people dream about flying, I live my dream
SKYMONKEY PUBLISHING

[The111 0]

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it is apparent that she is in a violent flat spin

Why do the ground and sky keep switching places then, the horizon inversion? Either she has a more flexible neck than any human I've ever met, or she is tumbling in addition to spinning.

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I have also seen a tandem in a flat/side spin to the point where the people were unconscious and subsequently died( Strong tandem sidespin video) and I personally watched it happen to Chris Martin.

A person under canopy and tandem pair under drogue both have center of pressure far above center of mass. This is something which contributes a very very large stabilizing force in one direction. Neither of these are really comparable to a single person in freefall, without a canopy above his head. In neither of these examples is it even possible to "tumble"... spinning about a vertical axis is the only kind of dynamic instability physically possible when you are suspended in a harness.

I do agree that it is possible that an unconscious non-wingsuited person could end up in a back to earth orientation with a somewhat stable "spin". A non-wingsuited person, however, is much much more inherently stable than a wingsuited person. A person in a wingsuit is much less dynamically stable. Regardless of whether or not the wings/limbs are pinned outward by centrifugal force, an unconscious person in a wingsuit is still very dynamically unstable. Even MORESO, with all the wings fully extended. With no conscious stabilizing force to keep the wingsuit in a certain orientation, it will almost certainly experience "tumbles" mixed in with the spins (and during a tumble, the changes in air pressure direction will likely collapse wings). It may "spin" for certain observable time periods (just as the falling cars in Good Stuff were in a "stable oscillation" for periods of time), but these spins are not sustainable indefinitely (just as the falling cars eventually changed to a new mode of instability).

The only way to truly solve this debate would be to build a dummy with the exact same weight distribution and stiffness (impossible) as an unconscious person, put it in a wingsuit, dump it, and observe. Besides being a ridiculous thing to try to do, the results would vary from:

a) body type
b) wingsuit
c) test to test, even with all other variables held constant, simply due to nature of dynamic instability

Also, the speeds would be very tough to measure, although average fallrate over a given altitude would be easy to obtain (and would be relatively constant between tests, averaged over a large sample set).

Bottom line is if I had to guess, I would easily exceed 78mph fallrate if I were unconscious in my wingsuit, regardless of whether or not I started in a spin.

www.WingsuitPhotos.com

[pilotdave 0]

Nope, not the video I was thinking of then. There's at least one or two on there somewhere that show an outside view of a really fast flat spin.

Dave

[mnskydiver688 0]

Isn't the attitude "If it ain't broke, try harder!"?

Sky Canyon Wingsuiters

[The111 0]

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Nope, not the video I was thinking of then. There's at least one or two on there somewhere that show an outside view of a really fast flat spin.

I've seen videos of flat spins, but they do NOT show:

1) Fallrate during the spin
2) How long the spin is maintained for without tumbling

And most importantly, the person is conscious. When an AFF person is on their belly spinning, it's in part due to their own consciousness. They are getting half of their stability correct: they are arching hard at the hips and preventing themselves from rolling or pitching over... but they have not yet figured out how to control the yaw, so all that's left is to spin about that axis. Unconscious, they'd have 2 more axes without stability (no more hip arch since that takes muscle).

www.WingsuitPhotos.com

[LouDiamond 1]

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Why do the ground and sky keep switching places then, the horizon inversion?

She was moving her head around while trying to stop the spin. When she stops moving her head around, it can be seen and heard on the video how fast she is rotating.

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Bottom line is if I had to guess, I would easily exceed 78mph fallrate if I were unconscious in my wingsuit, regardless of whether or not I started in a spin.

That is correct, if you were not also spinning. The video of a wingsuiter in a flat spin,filmed by another wingsuiter on the dive can be seen HERE. Note that her decent rate is actually slower than the other wingsuiter. Also note the rotational speed she generates by not following proper flat spin procedures from the onset of the instability.


I do not debate that tumbles can and do occur during the fall at some point. My point is, if you are in a flat spin and go unconscious it is possible to fall slower than the AAD activation speed.

"It's just skydiving..additional drama is not required"
Some people dream about flying, I live my dream
SKYMONKEY PUBLISHING

[The111 0]

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Note that her decent rate is actually slower than the other wingsuiter.

And I have no idea who that "other wingsuiter" is, or how fast he/she is falling. I do notice, however, that the third person, NOT in a flatspin, is also falling much slower than the camera. It seems like the camera guy sunk out on both of them, for whatever reason.

Also, for 90% of that video you do not have a clear view of the girl in the spin. However, from the very beginning when you can see her clearly it does appear to be a spin, but not a "flat" spin... more of an incredibly steep diving corkscrew generated by the legwing.

A bit of thread drift, but I have talked to several people who say they were in spins "so intense that they could not pull their arms in." When I ask how they got out alive, they say they pulled.

???????????????????

How on earth can you pull, if your arms are "stuck out"?

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My point is, if you are in a flat spin and go unconscious it is possible to fall slower than the AAD activation speed.

Yeh, I'll give you that much, it probably is possible depending on body type and suit. I don't think the average will be below 78mph, but it might be possible to hit that for some period of time, and I guess if you happen to be in the "slow" period of your dynamic fallrate as you go through Cypres activation deck, you may be screwed. I still don't think it's very likely, not enough to worry me at least.

www.WingsuitPhotos.com

[hackish 8]

If one really wanted to test out the limp body theories then you just need a friend who works with crash test dummies. Unfortunately they're very expensive but they do have all the proper skeletal and joint structures to act like a knocked out human.

-Michael

[LouDiamond 1]

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Also, for 90% of that video you do not have a clear view of the girl in the spin. However, from the very beginning when you can see her clearly it does appear to be a spin, but not a "flat" spin... more of an incredibly steep diving corkscrew generated by the legwing.

Go back and go through it frame by frame or on slowmo. It should be quite apparent that she is flat on her back spinning and fighting to grasp her arm cutaways from the moment she goes unstable.

"It's just skydiving..additional drama is not required"
Some people dream about flying, I live my dream
SKYMONKEY PUBLISHING

[The111 0]

Her back is toward the ground, but she is not "flat", rather inclined head low, spinning in a way that kind of reminds me of head down carving in a wind tunnel.

www.WingsuitPhotos.com

[billvon 2,400]

>If you need an AAD in case you "forget" to pull, you should not be jumping.

That may be true - but most AAD saves are people who forget to pull. So it is used for that purpose quite often.

[LouDiamond 1]

She is not completely flat because she is trying to bend forward to grasp her arm cutaways and has a slight butt low attitude. I find it hard to believe you cannot see what I am talking about. At any rate, I think this horse has been beaten enough.

"It's just skydiving..additional drama is not required"
Some people dream about flying, I live my dream
SKYMONKEY PUBLISHING

[brianfry713 0]

I'm a B.A.S.E. jumper that uses an AAD on the skydiving rigs I normally jump, but I would jump without one and I would turn mine off if I was planning a jump that would be safer without an AAD. Such as a planned low pull or I'm sure there are other situations, such as if I ever think I'm going to do a big enough swoop where I might activate it (I don't think I'm anywhere near that now).

Perhaps someone wants to start a poll of the percentage of B.A.S.E. jumpers who use AADs while skydiving, if it hasn't been done already and enough B.A.S.E. jumpers respond. Of course, the ones who do respond are the ones who spend more time online.

As a wingsuit skydiver, I normally use an expert Cypres or Cypres 2 because I am confident that it will not fire if I deploy my main at around 2,000 feet or higher, as I normally do. I do think I could fly all the way to the ground without pulling or my AAD firing, but I don't plan on it. Part of strapping on a wingsuit requires taking that added risk. I think it's even mentioned in the wingsuit owners manuals that your AAD may not fire. I also plan on pulling on all the other skydives and B.A.S.E. jumps that I do.

I think my chances are better with a Cypres than without one on a wingsuit jump if I forget to pull or I'm unable to, but I don't count on it saving me, that's what the handles are for. Yes it is possible that it won't save me with or without a wingsuit, but I feel it's worth jumping with one on almost all of the skydives that I do.

Some CReW jumpers tend to avoid using AADs, especially if they plan on doing downplanes close to the ground. Maybe someone wants to try to invent one that they want to use, in case they hit the airplane or something.

Don't forget about the Astra, which is normally mounted on the mud flap so you can turn it off manually after opening.

There's more info about fallrates AADs (which he wasn't using) and Chris Martin's death here
http://www.dropzone.com/cgi-bin/forum/gforum.cgi?post=1333486#1333486

If you want to find out how fast an unconscious wingsuiter would fall, just go out and go limp and measure it. I guess you might always be unconsciously flying though.