Just got to try a spectre 170...

[hackish 8]

Ok, I know this wasn't a beginner canopy and I've always been conservative about making sure that I take the appropriate sized steps. I work in the auto industry and the last thing I want to be in that 16 year-old who takes his dad's viper out for a spin...

So I've been flying a sabre 210. One of the guys at the DZ let me try his spectre 170 as there was no time to repack between jumps. For the record I'm 185lbs without gear.

While it did fly a little faster and land with a little more toggle sensitivity the one thing I really appreciated about this canopy is that it did what I told it to do without feeling like I had to coax or sometimes provoke it into what I wanted. Now I didn't try any quick spirals or front riser stuff as it was my first ride.

Unlike the 210 I was able to get a little more reaction from hip motion and I did notice that as Brian Germain's book the canopy and its pilot said you do need a little opposite toggle to stop a turn. All in all it seemed to be a comfortable and fun thing.

Now what I do wonder is in the natural progression of moving up on performance what comes next? Or is a spectre a good medium level performance canopy? Personally I want to exploit the sabre 210 a little more first but I'm thinking something like this could be a good first canopy for me for next year?

-Michael

[mrken 0]

If you're 185 without gear, im guessing you're weighing in around 210 with student gear on. Jumping a 170 canopy would put you at around a 1.2 WL.

I'd watch the following:

http://www.uspa.org/safety/fly_to_survive.htm

[DSE 3]

A 280 to a 210 to a 170 in 25 jumps? There is nothing "conservative" in doing this, not at your weight.
Consider yourself lucky. The guy that loaned you the 170 isn't your friend.
There is already a thread on the Spectre, it's a very gentle canopy on opening, and easy to fly; Personally I found it sluggish but there are some serious pros that fly the Spectre, Tony Hathaway being one of them.
If you're reading Brian Germain's book, read the section on downsizing.

[Chris-Ottawa 0]

Hey Mike,

I love my Spectre...jumped it for the last 85 jumps, now I've got my new one that i'm off to jump in about an hour. I'm not saying what it is on here to save the hassle, but I think you remember when we talked about 2 weeks ago...

The Spectre is a phenominal canopy. You won't get a canopy that treats you quite the same. Best opening, best flying 7 cell out there. Just be careful, that is a fairly high W/L at your progression level. I say that but I am doing something similar, but I only weigh 115 without gear. The only reason I'm getting rid of the Spectre, other than because I want to downsize, is because I want to switch to a 9 cell for the better flare performance. Don't get me wrong, the Spectre flares great and I've stood every landing perfectly, but it's a very short flare unless you swoop it. (See: Tony Hathaway). If you look in the para-gear catalogue at the Spectre, that's Tony swooping the shit out of a Spectre. He also personally sent me a small clip of him swooping the Spectre. (msg me if you want it)

It's a great canopy, and I HIGHLY recommend it, but you must be careful on the 170...not to mention that the Spectre is "semi-elliptical" and will be more responsive than the Sabre you're jumping.

And when you're ready....I've got a Spectre 135 that will be up for sale shortly...you'll be moving under that....haha. You might need just a few more jumps before I'd let you jump it though....

Chris

"When once you have tasted flight..."

[phoenixlpr 0]

Quote

It's a great canopy, and I HIGHLY recommend it, but you must be careful on the 170...not to mention that the Spectre is "semi-elliptical" and will be more responsive than the Sabre you're jumping.

So? Apples or Oranges.... I think he should be careful anyway.

[hackish 8]

Everyone agreed that I would be able to handle the 170, that included my instructor and several others with a lot of experience. They all gave me a detailed briefing on how to handle it and indeed, while it was a step up from the sabre 210 it wasn't this amazingly fast or uber-hard to fly.

I'm not anxious to switch to a 170 for a while yet - maybe a 190 next year but I'm wondering how that spectre compares - intermediate -> expert -> insane. I guess I was just surprised after all I've read on here about jump numbers and downsizing that it wasn't hard to fly or land - you just had to pay attention to what you were doing.

-Michael

[phoenixlpr 0]

Quote

I'm not anxious to switch to a 170 for a while yet - maybe a 190 next year but I'm wondering how that spectre compares - intermediate -> expert -> insane.

If you dedicate some time to learn how to fly that thing you could be OK.

[DSE 3]

I forgot, you have mad skills.
Good luck to you. 30-odd jumps and you're at a 1.2 wingloading.
You have Germain's book, see what it says.
It'll show you that at your weight and experience, you shouldn't be on a 170 of any kind.
But the guys at your DZ know better than anyone.

The Spectre can range anywhere from Novice (which you are) to Expert, depending on the wingloading. it's not a crazy swoop machine if that's what you're asking.
For your published exit weight, PD recommends you be on a 230. According to this chart you shouln't be considering a 170 for a long time.
Sounds like you're managing on a 210 just fine. but stepping down to a 170 this soon? Again...the guys at the DZ aren't your friends, not if they're telling you that you can manage a 170 at sub 40 jumps, or even sub 200 jumps.
But, you did suggest you have incredible skills for a low-number jumper in another thread, so....

[hackish 8]

Let's skip the useless comments on my canopy skills I can apparently fly and land well enough on the 280's and the 210 not to get myself hurt. I also successfully flew this 170 without any scary moments.

Every time I've read about it online everyone said no, don't do that, you'll surely die. There's no way you could ever land that at your experience level. Yet in real life it was more touchy and yes I flew it conservatively but it was no super-hard uber-skills needed.

So that leaves me with trying to understand more about the little exposure I gained. Yes it reacted quickly and no you don't want to do the wrong thing with the toggles and yes you have to be careful with the flare.

Is it only on this basis that the canopy is not appropriate for a novice? Or is there a big can of worms that could have been opened if I had tried some crazy spirals or hard toggle inputs?

For the record I don't feel that my instructors put me in danger nor do I feel that I was up past my bedtime under this thing. Kinda like the 18 year-old who got to take the ferarri for a putt putt around the block. I just do want to understand what the comments are based on.

-Michael

[skybytch 259]

Quote

I also successfully flew this 170 without any scary moments.

Would you have been equally successful if you'd had to land off the dropzone due to a bad spot or an aircraft emergency? How about if someone cut you off on final? How about if you'd had to land downwind for some reason?

Most people who go thousands of jumps without injury do so because they dress for the crash. Not for the cruise.

[2shay 0]

I started with the student mantas and such then moved onto a triathlon 190 for my first canopy and weighed the same as you do. Maybe you should try jumping a 190 for a feww hundred jumps. Think about the worst possible landing situation and ask yourself if you could confidently and safely land your canopy there. Forget the whole idea of jumping a canopy justto show people that you won't kill yourself on it. I know that I could land a 99 safely, but given the question above I would choose not to waste my time right now jumping that canopy.

don't try your bullshit with me!!!

[wmw999 2,148]

Quote

I'm not anxious to switch to a 170 for a while yet - maybe a 190 next year but I'm wondering how that spectre compares - intermediate -> expert -> insane.

a. I really like that first sentence. It shows good judgment. Really.

b. The spectre, when loaded conservatively (which would be about 1.0 or so -- about a 210 for you) is an intermediate canopy in my opinion.

A 190 next year is a good goal if you want to learn how to get the most out of a canopy. A big problem with downsizing too fast is that you can end up scared of your canopy, and you can't try things that you might be able to on a larger canopy. Which means that there's a whole lot of canopy piloting stuff that you never had the opportunity to learn.

You can hurt yourself with any canopy. But a bigger one will generally forgive more mistakes than a smaller one. And learning is all about learning from small mistakes, and others' mistakes.

Wendy W.

There is nothing more dangerous than breaking a basic safety rule and getting away with it. It removes fear of the consequences and builds false confidence. (tbrown)

[Scubadivemaster 3]

Quote

Let's skip the useless comments on my canopy skills I can apparently fly and land well enough on the 280's and the 210 not to get myself hurt. I also successfully flew this 170 without any scary moments.

-Michael

Write that comment in your logbook and come back and read it in 200 jumps.

I made roughly the same transitions you have and at the same wingloadings. I started with Mantas (288 F111), switched to a spectre 230. Put maybe 50 jumps on it, had good consistent landings, even in slightly turbulent conditions. Was able to dig out of late flares, make lower than perfect turns to avoid other canopies, etc. and never had any real problems. I stitched to a Spectre 170 next. I flew it and landed it fine. Had a big time. Put about 25 jumps on it and my wife wanted to jump it, so I traded her for her 190 Spectre. I still occasionally jumped her 170. All of these canopies are pretty forgiving and seem almost docile but if pushed can give you a good time. I never learned the true limits of any of these canopies, because I kept downsizing (mainly because I love the speed). I felt completely comfortable under all of them. Didn't listen to anyone telling me that I was progressing too fast because I was flying and landing just fine. Never had a hint of trouble. My instructors thought it was fine.

One of my instructors (whose 170 I originally jumped) caught my inevitable bounce on film. (Under the 170.) I never had any problems until I got it into a corner and didn't know how to get it out. Hell, I didn't realize I was IN a corner until I was bouncing off the turf. I had probably 50 jumps on it by then and landed it consistently and perfectly. I spent 2 months this spring watching my friends jump while I sat on my butt. What happened? I was jumping something too small and highly wingloaded for my experience level.

What you are not taking into account is that when everything goes wrong you have three things to fall back on: Training, Experience, and Square feet over your head. You want as much of all three as possible.

Clearly, you are working on the training if you have Germaine's book. That's commendable, keep it up. That will help keep you safe and assist in your advancement.

Your experience (assuming the 33 jumps in your profile is correct) probably totals much less than 120 minutes of canopy time. C'mon! Two hours! At two hours of driving experience, you leave the new driver in a station wagon, you don't give him a Mustang. Once he has learned how to really push the limits of the station wagon, then he moved to something sportier (and that offers less protection.)

There is no substitute for square feet over you when the shit hits the fan, which it inevitable will.

My last 125 jumps have been under the 190 Spectre. I still haven't touched everything it is capable of doing, and I'm pretty aggressive with it.

For the past couple of weeks I've been jumping a F111 Troll 290 in preparation for a "Special" jump and can't believe how much fun I am having with it. Why didnt I just stick with the Manta for a 100 jumps?? You can make these things fly backwards! There are all sorts of tricks you can learn on huge canopies safely that will translate well into the more aggressive canopies and wingloadings. I even got a little swoop out of the 290 last week.

Don't get too touchy. The majority of people here are trying to help. We're not criticizing your skills. Your skills are probably exactly where they should be for 33 jumps. You may be a natural, we've all seen people who are. If so, we'd like to keep you whole so that you reach your potential. Either way, I encourage you to burn the tires off your daddy's buick before you take the Ferrari around the block for a spin.

Your body will thank you, and you will be a more competent pilot for it.

[mrken 0]

I had to raise my WL the other way. Lost 20 lbs. Surprised how much easier the landings are now!

[hackish 8]

Thanks guys, I appreciate the good advice. Even though I did like the way the 170 obeyed my commands very quickly I felt the need to fly it conservatively. Ever walk on eggshells around a bitchy woman? Same idea. I was still able to put it where I wanted and land 20 or so meters from the target. I don't think as some were suggesting that I'm an idiot with a death wish.

The 210 I'm flying does not belong to the DZ and after this year it will become unavailable. There are 2 more weeks of jumping so I may be able to make 50 jumps before things shut down for the winter. After that comes the difficult decision of finding the rig I will buy and fly for a good amount of time.

My rigger has already indicated that he feels I would be okay trying his sabre 2 190 so I may also try that. It was important for me to try something a little more sporty - I'm not interested in proving anything to anyone else - only that I'd like to see where I stand in the progression of things so I can choose the correct canopy.

The spectre 170 is too agressive, the sabre 210 has some annoyances that push me away - namely the PITA dual brake lines crappy toggles and inconsistent openings. There has to be a good middle ground in here and that's what I'm working on finding. It would be nice to have something bigger and slower that still responds as well as the spectre.

On the sabre 210 today I managed to come in carrying a bit of speed (no I wasn't trying). Carried about 25' with my feet brushing in the grass and ran out the last little bit. That was fun and I enjoyed it but I'd be in heaven if I could get something to fly like this that didn't feel sluggish.

-Michael

[DSE 3]

Quote

Let's skip the useless comments on my canopy skills I can apparently fly and land well enough on the 280's and the 210 not to get myself hurt. I also successfully flew this 170 without any scary moments.

Like I said, you indicated you have mad skills in another thread, just as in this one you discuss a 25' surf and how great it was. Yup, they're great...but there is a lot of learning between just getting an A license and swooping.

You'll get away with downsizing your wingloading slightly better than some folks, due to your altitude, but if you want to be conservative (as you've also indicated) it's good practice to follow the curves of the various manufacturer wingloading charts.

The wingloading charts referred to are generated by people who have forgotten more about skydiving than 99.9% of skydivers will ever know. There definitely are exceptional skydivers, and maybe you're one of them. I thought I was exceptional, until I broke my heel landing a canopy too small for my ability at the time. But heck...I'd jumped that canopy at least 20 times without hurting myself. I know I can fly a 107 and land it 99 out of 100 times without being hurt. It's that one that I can't land that hurts.

[NewGuy2005 51]

Downsizing is not a skydiving requirement.

[kallend 1,647]

Ask your instructor.

Advice obtained from the internet (including this) may not be worth the paper it's written on.

At my instructor's recommendation I was jumping a 150 by my 15th jump, and a Stiletto by my 40th, and the inevitable injury never happened. Your mileage may vary.

...

The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one.

[hackish 8]

I agree whole-heartedly with that. I still do take the time to listen to what the e-structors have to say but at the end of the day my instructor has seen me progress through 38 of my 39 jumps and his years of experience and judgment of what he has seen hold a lot more weight.

I got to try this 170 under ideal conditions and flew it conservatively. I set it down safely within a few meters of the target after flying the proper pattern in a safe manner. I'm not planning to jump it regularly but that was my experience with it and I wrote about it and asked my questions of the members here.

Many people have had injuries under similar and larger canopies. I keep that in mind every time I jump. The ground doesn't care how many jumps you have. I may end up injuring myself I may not - that is the nature of skydiving - if I'm not willing to challenge myself what's the point of doing it?

For the future I want to try the sabre2 190 and see if the rig fits. If it's close enough in flight characteristics to the 210 and the rig fits then I may consider purchasing it over the winter and spending 100 or so jumps on that. If not then I'll see what else there is out there and try a few before committing to buy something.

-Michael

[AggieDave 6]

You know, I had "mad skills" too. Then I nearly died.

Looking back now, I would have become a MUCH better canopy pilot much sooner if I had backed off and gone slower with better canopy choices. I went too small too fast.

I wish I would have bought a Sabre2 210 instead of a Heatwave 170.

Unfortunately people with the same attitude I had sometimes get super lucky, but more often then not they get seriously hurt or killed.

Since then I've worked very hard to learn about canopy flight and ended up having to go back to the basics and relearn everything I should have learned on a larger slower canopy.

--"When I die, may I be surrounded by scattered chrome and burning gasoline."

[JeepDiver 0]

Quote

Many people have had injuries under similar and larger canopies. I keep that in mind every time I jump. The ground doesn't care how many jumps you have. I may end up injuring myself, I may not - that is the nature of skydiving - if I'm not willing to challenge myself what's the point of doing it?

Not to rain on your parade my friend but your thinking is simply flawed. You just don't get it. What is your rush?

Not to sound harsh but it not a matter of injuring/hurting yourself that I worry about. "If your going to be dumb you have to be tough" as a friend of mine said after I watched him bounce 90to110 feet across the ground in slow mo.

It's up to you to live with the pain after an injury. I am sure you can do that. The problem is with all the people who have to live with the pain after a fatality of a loved one.

I see no need for your great haste to downsize. You have the rest of your life to acquire the skills to fly whatever you want in a reasonable mature amount of time.

Why not do this, acquire the skills necessary to resist peer pressure to downsize so quickly.

Your first post in this threads sound reasonable. Master the canopy you fly before moving down to the next size smaller. You will be surprised by what you learn and how well you fly in the long run. Read this.

http://www.dropzone.com/cgi-bin/safety/detail_page.cgi?ID=47

[kallend 1,647]

Well, the reason I said "your mileage may vary" is that I was already a licensed glider pilot and had a whole lot of unpowered flying time and landings under my belt. I suspect your mileage does vary.

...

The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one.

[Fast 0]

Quote

Ask your instructor.

Advice obtained from the internet (including this) may not be worth the paper it's written on.

At my instructor's recommendation I was jumping a 150 by my 15th jump, and a Stiletto by my 40th, and the inevitable injury never happened. Your mileage may vary.

I agree with the ask your instructors part. I don't have any of the "other" experience that kallend has but I was jumping a 170 by jump 20. I weighed between 185 and 195 depending on the day back then. I did sprain an ankle landing though! I put like 400 jumps on the 170 then 400 on a 150 then 400 on a 139 and I have a couple hundred on my velocity 103 now.

There was my progression. Understand that more risk is involved with higher wingloading. You are more likely to get hurt or killed. I got lucky a few times, you might not! You might learn slower too. All up to you what are willing to accept and your DZ as to what they are willing to let you do!

Just try to not get hurt, ya?


Edit to clarify, since people are probably gonna get pissy at me over that post and cause I have somewhat come out on the "you're an idot for downsizing fence" in the past. I am not suggesting that you downsize. Only that you evaluate how much risk you are willing to accept. That is a big part of this sport. Don't forget about all the people who have to deal with shit if you do in fact make a bad decision.

~D
Where troubles melt like lemon drops Away above the chimney tops That's where you'll find me.
Swooping is taking one last poke at the bear before escaping it's cave - davelepka

[hackish 8]

Quote

Not to rain on your parade my friend but your thinking is simply flawed. You just don't get it. What is your rush?

The point was not to rush. The point was to try out a different canopy and see how much more aggressive it was than the 210. The point of this post was to get ideas for a canopy. Here I hoped to get the suggestions and impressions of dozens of other canopies. I wrote about what I liked and didn't about the 210 and 170. The latter is too fast but I liked the way it handled.

Quote

I see no need for your great haste to downsize. You have the rest of your life to acquire the skills to fly whatever you want in a reasonable mature amount of time.

Why not do this, acquire the skills necessary to resist peer pressure to downsize so quickly.

Your first post in this threads sound reasonable. Master the canopy you fly before moving down to the next size smaller. You will be surprised by what you learn and how well you fly in the long run. Read this.

http://www.dropzone.com/cgi-bin/safety/detail_page.cgi?ID=47

I dislike the 210 I'm flying. The dual brake lines are a pain, it does not ever seem to open on heading. Since I started packing it like PD said it's at least opening in less than 1200' but usually opens off heading unless I'm really aggressive in the harness and with the toggles. Sometimes I feel like I'm wrestling a bull as it opens.

The student rigs will probably be the only thing available for rental next year and there just doesn't seem to be anything else to do on those blimps.

Overall I loved the way the spectre 170 responded to my inputs it was just too fast and I'd like something in the middle of the 210 and that.

For the downsizing article I can already do most of what they list. The only opportunity I had for a downhill landing was under a raven reserve so I don't know if that counts but I did set down well enough.

I haven't tried the front riser landing swoop they suggest as I think it's beyond me. I have been playing around front-risering little cloud whisps when they are available... softer than the ground :P

All said and done I'm still having lots of fun under the 210 but need to find something new for next year. This post was never intended to be about me buying a spectre 170 more about what middle ground there is.

-Michael

[Couloirman 0]

a middle ground between the 210 and the 170, hmmm...... wait for it, wait for it......... It comes in a 190, Eureka!

Sorry to be so sarcastic, long day...