Here's a point of view to discuss.

[Muenkel 0]

This is an Editorial written by an American citizen, published in a Tampa Newspaper. (This was forwarded to me via email and I do not know the person's name. This also is not necessarily my opinion, but I do think the person makes some very valid points)

IMMIGRANTS, NOT AMERICANS, MUST ADAPT.

I am tired of this nation worrying about whether we are offending some individual or their culture. Since the terrorist attacks on Sept. 11, we have experienced a surge in patriotism by the majority of Americans.

However, the dust from the attacks had barely settled when the "politically correct" crowd began complaining about the possibility that our patriotism was offending others.

I am not against immigration, nor do I hold a grudge against anyone who is seeking a better life by coming to America. Our population is
almost entirely comprised of descendants of
immigrants. However, there are a few things that those who have recently come to our country, and apparently some born here, need to understand. This idea of America being a multicultural community has served only to dilute our sovereignty and our national identity. As Americans, we have our own culture, our own society, our own language and our own lifestyle. This culture has been developed over centuries of struggles, trials, and victories by millions of men and women who have sought freedom. We speak ENGLISH, not Spanish,
Arabic, Chinese, Japanese, Russian, or any other language. Therefore, if you wish to become part of our society, learn the language!


"In God We Trust" is our national motto.
This is not some Christian, right wing, political slogan. We adopted this motto because Christian men and women, on Christian principles, founded this nation, and this is clearly documented. It is certainly appropriate to display it on the walls of our schools. If God offends you, then I suggest
you consider another part of the world as your new home, because God is part of our culture. If Stars and Stripes offend you, or you don't like Uncle Sam, then you move to another part of this planet. We are happy with our culture and have no desire to change, and we really don't care how you did things where you came from.

This is OUR COUNTRY, our land, and our lifestyle.

Our First Amendment gives every citizen the right to express his opinion and we will allow you every opportunity to do so. But, once you are done complaining, whining, and griping about our flag, our pledge, our national motto, or our way of life, or our God, I highly encourage you to take advantage of one other great American freedom, THE RIGHT TO LEAVE.

_________________________________________
Chris

[kallend 1,672]

150 years ago citizens were saying things like this in support of slavery. It sounds good but it's stupid.

...

The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one.

[billvon 2,464]

>As Americans, we have our own culture, our own society, our own
>language and our own lifestyle. This culture has been developed
> over centuries of struggles, trials, and victories by millions of men
> and women who have sought freedom. We speak ENGLISH, not
> Spanish, Arabic, Chinese, Japanese, Russian, or any other
>language.

Now that's funny! We have our own culture, independent of other countries, and the evidence of that is that we took our language from another country?

> Therefore, if you wish to become part of our society, learn the
> language!

Not sure of the point here. If you can't speak english, you are not welcome as part of US society?

>If God offends you, then I suggest
>you consider another part of the world as your new home, because
> God is part of our culture.

He is part of our culture in all his forms. Sometimes he's absent (atheists) sometimes he's there (christianity) sometimes he's there in several forms (hinduism.) He is not part of our government. This is basic to our constitution.

>We are happy with our culture and have no desire to change . . .

We have changed, radically and completely, several times in our history. We had slavery, we abolished it. We did not allow women to vote, now we do. We banned all alcohol and brought it back. Change is part of life for people here in the US.

> But, once you are done complaining, whining, and griping about our
> flag, our pledge, our national motto, or our way of life, or our God,
>I highly encourage you to take advantage of one other great >American freedom, THE RIGHT TO LEAVE.

Ah yes. "America, love it or leave it, pinko commie scum!" Funny how the details change but the words stay the same.

[bbarnhouse 0]

*sigh*

[PhreeZone 15]

>Therefore, if you wish to become part of our society, learn the language!

The UN uses French as its international language. More people speak chinese then any other language. What does this mean? Nothing...

This is just once again the Anglo-Saxon supiority complex kicking in and saying that just because they are the ones that started something they retain complete control over it. If this was true all over Greeks would be the only ones that could read and write, the Chinese would be the only ones with paper.

Every person and every culture has something to contribute to the nation. International relations requires people to speak a wide viarety of languages and know thier cultures. Are we more focused on becoming a "patriotic" nation, or a world citizen?

I hate to bring this one up already but the third reich told its citizens that they all had to adapt and lose many of their unique cultures in order to fit in with the masses. The gypses were at first only persicuted then they were executed for their own culture. I'd like to think that the average US citizen is more tolerant then the third reich was. How would you like it if your great grand parents or who ever was denied entrence to the US since they did'nt have a complete mastery of the language and the new culture? The only ones that have a ligitimate complaint here are the Native Americans... but thats another thread.

Yesterday is history
And tomorrow is a mystery

Parachutemanuals.com

[Muenkel 0]

I know this is a radically right piece and like I said, I don't agree with some of it, or actually most of it, but I do think there is a middle of the road. We really have gone to such an extreme about possibly offending someone.

_________________________________________
Chris

[quade 3]

Quote

"In God We Trust" is our national motto.
This is not some Christian, right wing, political slogan. We adopted this motto because Christian men and women, on Christian principles, founded this nation, and this is clearly documented.

Not correct.

See THIS and THIS.

quade -
The World's Most Boring Skydiver

[Muenkel 0]

Great, Now I just spent $50 bucks on a bunch of coins! Thanks Quade.

_________________________________________
Chris

[Muenkel 0]

I think the reason we get letters like this, is because the pendulum of political correctness has swung to such an extreme. Political correctness came about for a reason (whole other thread), but we have used and abused it to death.

_________________________________________
Chris

[SBS 0]

The UN uses French as its international language. More people speak chinese then any other language. What does this mean? Nothing...
------------------
Of course it means something...it means that when you go to the UN, everything will be in French. That is exactly the point with the language here...what is being said is not that English is better than any other language, just that it is OUR language, which contributes to our culture.

The United States has a culture...every group has a dynamic and a culture. It may not be as "rich" as European culture, etc., but to deny it is a tragedy. Hell, different states have different cultures and traditions.

I agree that this is extreme, but when you consider the middle road, like was pointed out, it's not all that far fetched.

This isn't a "believe like I do or leave", but to respect our country. When I go to live in a foreign country, I respect that country, its culture, and its people, by learning the national language, not expecting them to adapt to me and mine.

I am by no means against immigration...that is the basis of our society here in the US. At the same time, though, by moving into a new country, I believe that one takes on the responsability of respecting the place into which he or she is moving, as well as holding onto and valuing their own heritage.

So, should someone want to move into the United States, I believe that they should be required to have a working knowledge of the English (American) language before entering, or attend classes regularly to attain the knowledge.

As far as believing in God, although the founding fathers based this country on their religious beliefs, they did understand that there would be others that should be free to worship and believe how they wished.

Learn our language to live here? Yes. Believe in God to live here? No.

Just my point of view.

Steve

_____________
I'm not conceited...I'm just realistic about my awesomeness...

[Muenkel 0]

Thanks Steve for so eloquently stating what I was unable to put in words.

I guess the thing that pisses me off is all the lawsuits because some kid is offended or has hurt feelings. Big freakin deal, get over it! I am not in anyway condoning cruelty. Compassion and tolerance needs to be taught to our children. But on the flip side, you have to teach your kids that this is not a perfect world and sometimes you're going to have your feelings hurt.

When I was in High School, I had really bad acne. I took alot of shit for it and it made me feel really self conscious. My parents didn't sue anybody. Instead they took me to a dermatologist every week for several years and paid for it with their own money.

_________________________________________
Chris

[Dumpster 0]

I have neice who has just spent the last four years teaching English, in France, to help pay her way through school in France- One observation she made- When people go to Germany, they speak German, when they go to france, they speak French - The only places you'll see signs or anything in more than one language is in the tourist locations -
I spent some time in France myself, on military business - I did my best to communicate in French, and was quite pleased when, the harder I tried to speak the language, the more accomodating the locals were- Same holds true here for the most part- My company hold English classes for out many Spanish workers, and the interpersonal relations have improved dramatically -
Food for thought--

Easy Does It

[PhillyKev 0]

Quote

This is not some Christian, right wing, political slogan. We adopted this motto because Christian men and women, on Christian principles, founded this nation, and this is clearly documented.

Really? Where is this documented? Actually the majority of them were Deists, which is a monotheistic religion, but definitively NOT Christian.

"One of the embarrassing problems for the early nineteenth-century champions of the Christian faith was that not one of the first six Presidents of the United States was an orthodox Christian."--The Encyclopedia Brittanica, 1968, p. 420

"Christianity...(has become) the most perverted system that ever shone on man. ...Rogueries, absurdities and untruths were perpetrated upon the teachings of Jesus by a large band of dupes and imposters led by Paul, the first great corrupter of the teaching of Jesus." --Thomas Jefferson, _Six_Historic_Americans_ by John E. Remsberg

"I contemplate with soveriegn reverence that act of the whole American people which declared that their legislature should 'make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof', thus building a wall of separation between church and State."--Thomas Jefferson, letter to Danbury Baptist Association, CT. _The_Complete_ Jefferson_ by Saul K. Padover, pp 518-519

"Whenever we read the obscene stories, the voluptuous debaucheries, the cruel and tortuous executions, the unrelenting vindictiveness with which more than half the Bible is filled, it would be more consistent that we call it the word of a demon than the word of God. It is a history of wickedness that has served to corrupt and brutalize [hu]mankind." -- Thomas Paine, _The_Age_of_Reason_

"All national institutions of churches, whether Jewish, Christian, or Turkish, appear to me no other than human inventions, set up to terrify and enslave mankind, and monopolize power and profit."--Thomas Paine, _The_Age_of_Reason

"Ecclesiastical establishments tend to great ignorance and all of which facilitates the execution of mischievous projects. Religious bondage shackles and debilitates the mind and unfits it for every noble enterprise, every expanded project."--James Madison, _2000_Years_of_Disbelief_ by James A. Haught

[rgoper 0]

let's reflect for a moment, if we can, about all that has been said, and views expressed and think about it, with the benifit of retrospective view.

i don't care where you go, what you do, everybody has a different perspective on "what is, and isn't" the continuence of disscussion on these matters is an exercise in futility, no one is going to change anybody's mind about how they feel about the issues.

this is america, "land of the free, home of the brave" i respect each and everyone of your opinions, but we're "beating a dead horse" here.

i'm proud to live in a country that allows such diversity, and allows each and every faith, color and creed seek their own beliefs under the protection of the constitution. although i don't go along with a lot of it, it is nonetheless their right, and i'm good with that.

--Richard--
"We Will Not Be Shaken By Thugs, And Terroist"

[PhillyKev 0]

Quote

i'm proud to live in a country that allows such diversity, and allows each and every faith, color and creed seek their own beliefs under the protection of the constitution. although i don't go along with a lot of it, it is nonetheless their right, and i'm good with that.

Thank you. That's the attitude I wish everyone would have. I've just been thoroughly mortified by those arguing against people having that right. It is insulting to my patriotism.

I also agree that the horse is officially dead. I'm done harping on this subject as I'm sure you're all sick of seeing me post about it.

[SBS 0]

disscussion on these matters is an exercise in futility

----------------

I disagree

----------------

but we're "beating a dead horse" here.

----------------

If it were a "dead horse", the discussion would not be so prominent in society today. It is not just here that these things are being discussed, but everywhere you turn.

---------------------

although i don't go along with a lot of it, it is nonetheless their right, and i'm good with that.

-------------------------

So am I...I just want the same respect to be reciprocated.

Steve

_____________
I'm not conceited...I'm just realistic about my awesomeness...

[Muenkel 0]

Quote

Really? Where is this documented?

I can't answer this. As I stated above, I am not the author of this letter.

_________________________________________
Chris

[dreamsville 0]

I think it's great that you posted this as a means to draw everybody into a debate, although I observe that this is never very difficult where my Anglo-Saxon buddy John Kallend is involved (he is a noted skydive physicist and philsopher).

As for politcal correctness, it is a sometimes self-defeating attempt at enforcing decency where it may be lacking. The world's not always fair nor does it always speak kindly, and people ought to be prepared for this and not present too soft a shell. However, I believe there is hope. As we learn to better get along with each other (through our religion or what ever else we have chosen), maybe the didactic aspects of political correctness will die of their own weight. I cite the skydiving community as a place where many different kinds of people get along well, are largely honest, and present a good example.

So here's to all you altitude addicts! Be safe and prosper this weekend (no, I have not started drinking yet).

I don't drink during the day, so I don't know what it is about this airline. I keep falling out the door of the plane.

Harry, FB #4143

[AndyMan 7]

Quote

Political correctness came about for a reason (whole other thread), but we have used and abused it to death.

If you want to be academic, the term Political Correctness came from a bunch of white men who objected to new thoughts about relating to different ideas (specifically western ideology in communist countries, that's part of history).

"Politically correct" does not describe the attempt to be kind to different people or create change, it describes an easy way to ignore people that ARE creating change. The only "true" usage of political correcness is "I don't care what you're saying, you're just being politically correct."

I have this well documented in my socialogy texts, but I'm having trouble finding good URL's

Dismissng people who try to change things as being "politically correct", only hurts your argument. In short, you've got to do better then that.

_Am

__

You put the fun in "funnel" - craichead.

[Muenkel 0]

Quote

bunch of white men

Why does the word "white" have to be in there. It kind of gives it a negative connotation. Like their is something evil about a group of "white" men.

Quote

only hurts your argument.

This is not my argument. Actually it is not even an argument. This is merely a discussion on issues that are very apropo today. I am quite impressed with the different point of views addressed here.

_________________________________________
Chris

[rgoper 0]

**i don't care where you go, what you do, everybody has a different perspective on "what is, and isn't" the continuence of disscussion on these matters is an exercise in futility, no one is going to change anybody's mind about how they feel about the issues.**

anybody NOT see this? even though i made this remark, disscussion continues, and is as i said, to my observation, an exercise in futility.

is there anything anyone can say to change your mind in the matters that you believe in? i would venture to guess not. no one can force their beliefs, philosphies, religion(s) etc...on anyone else, unless of course that is their wish.

i stated before, america, land of the free, home of the brave. it is a land where each and everyone of us is afforded the right to have our own beliefs, whatever they are. i'm glad we live here, but we're still "beating a dead horse"

"can't we all......just get along?"
Rodney King

--Richard--
"We Will Not Be Shaken By Thugs, And Terroist"

[SBS 0]

even though i made this remark, disscussion continues

-------------------

Maybe there are those of us who did not see your comment as being as profound as you did.

------------------

and is as i said, to my observation, an exercise in futility.

---------------------

That is your observation, so if you would not like to participate in the conversation, then that is your perogative. It is ours, though, if we choose to continue the conversation and share our points of view on this and other subjects.

---------------------

is there anything anyone can say to change your mind in the matters that you believe in?

----------------------

Yes, I believe that they can. More importantly, though, even if your point of view does not change, it offers access to ideas and philosophies to which one may not have previously given thought.

-----------------

i'm glad we live here, but we're still "beating a dead
horse"

-------------------

Actually, we are simply having a discussion in which we are interested and you are not. You are welcome to participate, but if your purpose in continuing to post is soley to end the thread when we choose to continue, it is you, sir, who is beating a dead horse.

Steve

_____________
I'm not conceited...I'm just realistic about my awesomeness...

[skybytch 259]

Quote

even though i made this remark, disscussion continues, and is as i said, to my observation, an exercise in futility.

Not interested in the discussion? Use your freedom of choice and choose not to read the rest of the thread. What's so difficult about that?

I happen to think that all of the points being made in this thread have already been made in other recent threads, but I'm not going to lock or delete this one as long as everyone keeps the discussion above the level of personal attacks.

[Muenkel 0]

Richard,

I also agree that alot of the points have been made in other threads. However, this really is just a discussion and in "real" life discussions often bring up previous points made. This really is a civil discussion and should remain as such.

I also like Steve's point that, yes, points of view can be changed. I don't consider myself to be all knowing. Many times I hear a different perspective and if it makes sense to me, I may change my mind.

I really believe discussion and healthy debate brings out new, creative ideas. Some are bad and some are good. But we need to be fed to continue to grow.

Do you know who is one of my favorite people on this forum? Billvon! That's right! He may lean left where I tend to lean right! We disagree on alot of issues, but they are only opinions. The reason he is one of my favorites is because he actually lives what he preaches and believes in. I truly respect that in a person.

_________________________________________
Chris

[billvon 2,464]

>anybody NOT see this? even though i made this remark, disscussion
> continues, and is as i said, to my observation, an exercise in futility.

Well, odd as it may seem, some people decide on their own whether a topic is worthy of discussion, rather than wait for you to declare the discussion over. This is a discussion group.

>is there anything anyone can say to change your mind in the matters
> that you believe in?

Nope. Does that mean that all classes in religion and philosophy are wastes of time? I know what I believe; I am interested in seeing what other people believe. Threads like this are one way to see that.