everymansaved 0 #1 June 4, 2007 Hey all, my canopy is in need of a healthy lengthening of the lower steering lines. The wing is fairly new to me, and has had this problem since I got it. The problem is not shrinkage, as the lines are vectran, so I would have to assume that they were probably replaced inapropriately. So here's the dilemma: Which section do I add length to? If I add it between the cascade point and the brake setting loop, i change the opening charachtaristics, etc... because the tail isn't pulled down as much on opening. Oh, and it already oens pretty softly, so I think lenghtening them by a lot would create an uncomfortably long snivel. However, if I add all the length I need between the brake setting loop and the toggle, I'm stuck with 8" more line to stow when setting the brakes. To add to the problem, the canopy mfg is not willing to release line specs. Any ideas, comments, questions???God made firefighters so paramedics would have heroes...and someone can put out the trailer fires. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
dragon2 0 #2 June 4, 2007 QuoteI'm stuck with 8" more line to stow when setting the brakes Eh, so what? That is where they generally need to be lengtened, assuming the part above the loop is in-spec. However, 8 inches is a LOT. Are you sure? I'd start a bit shorter myself and adjust as needed (you need to be able to pull the frontrisers down without pulling the tail). ciel bleu, Saskia Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
ZigZagMarquis 8 #3 June 4, 2007 Quote To add to the problem, the canopy mfg is not willing to release line specs. Any ideas, comments, questions??? What type of canopy and what mfgr are we talking about here? Sounds like you've already been in contact with them. Good. Why is it, specifically, you think the steering lines need to be lengthened? For example... generally speaking... when in full flight (toggles un-stowed), there should be a slight amount of slack (bow in the steering lines) when you're looking up at them / your canopy. Yes, there could be other factors, but if that's where you're at now, why do you think they need lengthening?? Try getting in contact with them again. Tell them what you think the problem is and why it is you think your lower control lines need lengthening and ask them what they think / should be done. Try asking them the same question, but in different words, "I have this canopy such and such. The length from the cat's eye on steering lines to where the toggles are tied off is "X" inches (centimeters), what should it be?" Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
diablopilot 2 #4 June 4, 2007 What manufacturer won't release specs?---------------------------------------------- You're not as good as you think you are. Seriously. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
everymansaved 0 #5 June 4, 2007 The canopy is an Icarus Safire 169, and I'm quite sure they need to be lengthened. There's no slack in them in full flight, and the tail majorly deflects when I front riser., causing an alarming amount of buffeting. I've gotten the brake-toggle setting from them, but they won't give out anything else because they don't want people making their own linesets for their canopies.God made firefighters so paramedics would have heroes...and someone can put out the trailer fires. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
everymansaved 0 #6 June 4, 2007 Oh, and as for the 8", that's what I'm planning on adding and then adjusting them as needed by moving the toggle knot.God made firefighters so paramedics would have heroes...and someone can put out the trailer fires. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
dragon2 0 #7 June 4, 2007 QuoteOh, and as for the 8", that's what I'm planning on adding and then adjusting them as needed by moving the toggle knot. I'd start with 3-4", myself. I'd advise against 8" in one go. Practice the flare a couple times before you land, brake line settings matter a lot. BTW is it a Spanish-made safire? These generally come with quite long steering lines, not sure about USA ones. But if someone didn't shorten them and they shrunk that much, very probably the entire lineset is due replacement. ciel bleu, Saskia Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
everymansaved 0 #8 June 4, 2007 I'm just going by what I can see for the length. I won't add the entire length at once either. I'm going to add that much to them, but tie the toggle on so as to only use 3-4 of it to start, then adjust as nesecarry. I'm not sure of where it was made, but the lines haven't shrunk, they're vectran. My working theory right now is that someone didn't like how far they had to pull the toggles to flare, so they shortened them, but it was just too much.God made firefighters so paramedics would have heroes...and someone can put out the trailer fires. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
DougH 270 #9 June 4, 2007 I had the lower lines replaced on my hornet and now there is a lot of excess. After I get the toggles where I was them I am going to get my rigger to sew an extra loop of tape on the back of the riser to stow the increased amount of excess."The restraining order says you're only allowed to touch me in freefall" =P Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
everymansaved 0 #10 June 4, 2007 yeah, this is what I'm thinking I'll do. I don't want to mess with those deployment brake settings.God made firefighters so paramedics would have heroes...and someone can put out the trailer fires. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
rehmwa 2 #11 June 4, 2007 I makes sense to get the size right as you are planning. I think stating 8" some people thought you're making an 8" extension, not "adding 8" so have some to work with. Once you find your sweet spot, I still like it finished as a trapped loop instead of a knot. Add to the lower bit, really. You can always stow a little bit more and the brake setting is important. My new lineset on my Stiletto has quite a bit of slack in full flight and I couldn't be happier about it. I get full drive as a result - and plenty of energy to finish results in nice flares. Better than when I had them set with just (what I had thought was) just a little slack. (Thanks, Mark - aka, one of the world's best riggers) Important to 'finish' the flare. Most people don't, then think they need to shorten the lines to land better, then have further issues. All would have been fixed by leaving the lines alone and learning to do a complete finish to the full stop. ... Driving is a one dimensional activity - a monkey can do it - being proud of your driving abilities is like being proud of being able to put on pants Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
everymansaved 0 #12 June 4, 2007 Exactly. That's more of what I want out of it. And my appologies for not explaining myself 100%. I do intend to just add 8" of line, but not use all of it. I'll find where i like them, and they fingertrap it and finish it. I just don't want to be picking stitches, and re-doing it after 2 jumps, 'cause it's not enough slack, etc...God made firefighters so paramedics would have heroes...and someone can put out the trailer fires. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
DougH 270 #13 June 4, 2007 We only stitched my lower on the top where it is attached to the brake setting loop. I am only going to finger trap the excess on the bottom because it drove me nuts when I spent all the time picking the bar tack from the original lowers only to find that there wasn't much slack in there to play with!! "The restraining order says you're only allowed to touch me in freefall" =P Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
za_skydiver 0 #14 June 4, 2007 QuoteOh, and as for the 8", that's what I'm planning on adding and then adjusting them as needed by moving the toggle knot. I almost guarantee that you will not need more than 2 inches max, Whatever you think, you can quarter, I had my brakes lenghtened recently, because my canopy was buffeting when i pulled on my front risers, I asked the rigger for 4 inches more, and he lenthened it by 2 inches, and i could not get to the bottom of my flare, I had to have it shortened by another inch before i could fly it properly. Just something to think about...Some dream of flying, i live the dream... Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
DrewEckhardt 0 #15 June 4, 2007 QuoteI almost guarantee that you will not need more than 2 inches max, Whatever you think, you can quarter, I had my brakes lenghtened recently, because my canopy was buffeting when i pulled on my front risers, I asked the rigger for 4 inches more, and he lenthened it by 2 inches, and i could not get to the bottom of my flare, I had to have it shortened by another inch before i could fly it properly. Just something to think about... If you're jumping Spectra lines you're going to need a lot more than 2". I added about 6" the last time I changed the steering lines on my Stiletto 120 and had no problems with it flaring right. When I later checked the trim I found that the outer lines (apart from the steering lines) had shrunk up to 6" and inboard lines less than 1.5". While other materials don't shrink you don't know what previous owners did to the canopy. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
za_skydiver 0 #16 June 4, 2007 Quote If you're jumping Spectra lines you're going to need a lot more than 2". I added about 6" the last time I changed the steering lines on my Stiletto 120 and had no problems with it flaring right. When I later checked the trim I found that the outer lines (apart from the steering lines) had shrunk up to 6" and inboard lines less than 1.5". While other materials don't shrink you don't know what previous owners did to the canopy. Give the manufacturer a call. They should be able to give you lower steering line (from the cascade to the cat-eye) and brake toggle (from the cat-eye to the toggle) lengths. If that fails, you should be able to buy new steering lines for ~$25. I jump a Sabre1 135. My comments are based on my experience, on a canopy with line trim that is in spec. Maybe if you need more than 2 inches, your should consider having your line trim looked at...Some dream of flying, i live the dream... Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
everymansaved 0 #17 June 4, 2007 In any case, I'm pretty sure 6-8" will be more than enough. I'm going to add the 8", but only utilize about 3"of it, and then adjust it from there as nesecary.God made firefighters so paramedics would have heroes...and someone can put out the trailer fires. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
jumper03 0 #18 June 4, 2007 Quote but they won't give out anything else because they don't want people making their own linesets for their canopies. They better stop selling canopies then. Every new canopy that comes through our loft, I measure all the lines and record it - (trick I learned from a smart master rigger) and soon I will have my own line trim charts Scars remind us that the past is real Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
ZigZagMarquis 8 #19 June 4, 2007 Quote The canopy is an Icarus Safire 169, and I'm quite sure they need to be lengthened. There's no slack in them in full flight, and the tail majorly deflects when I front riser., causing an alarming amount of buffeting. I've gotten the brake-toggle setting from them, but they won't give out anything else because they don't want people making their own linesets for their canopies. So they've told you the brake-toggle setting... how does your canopy compare to that? Assuming this mesurement is correct per what they say, have you then gone back to them and said, "Okay, I've got the correct brake-toggle setting, but my steering lines are still too long... " ... blah blah, as per your description above. What do they (have they said) to that? For what its worth... buy PD... they have much better customer service... but that's a different topic. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
mnskydiver688 0 #20 June 5, 2007 I just recently had my steering lines lengthened. In full flight the tail was pulled down a bit and I would hit a stall during my flare. So I talked with a rigger and he added 8 inches below the catzeye and it is a lot better. Flares are very nice and front riser turns don't buffet anymore. Oh it is a 170 sabre1. I would say talk to a rigger and get his/her opinionSky Canyon Wingsuiters Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
everymansaved 0 #21 June 5, 2007 I'm going to start measuring trim on new canopies, I just haven't had a lot of experience with any yet. Maybe I'll try calling Icarus tomorrow instead of emailing.God made firefighters so paramedics would have heroes...and someone can put out the trailer fires. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
JONWBROWNE 0 #22 June 5, 2007 i just added 8 inches to the steering lines on my safire 169- took a wrap around my hand for landing 1 knts of wind and no issues on the final flight path and landing Quote Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites masterrigger1 2 #23 June 5, 2007 Sean, On a Safire I-169, the toggle should be 37 cm below the brake set loop. That is the stock location. Are your lines Spectra or Vectran? Cheers, MELSkyworks Parachute Service, LLC www.Skyworksparachuteservice.com Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites rehmwa 2 #24 June 5, 2007 QuoteWhen I later checked the trim I found that the outer lines (apart from the steering lines) had shrunk up to 6" and inboard lines less than 1.5". And how do you like your new reline then? (that delta of shrinkage is more than enough indicator for a reline) ... Driving is a one dimensional activity - a monkey can do it - being proud of your driving abilities is like being proud of being able to put on pants Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites riggerrob 558 #25 June 5, 2007 ... but they won't give out anything else because they don't want people making their own line sets for their canopies. >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> A lame excuse, if I ever heard one! Keeping field riggers in the dark only guarantees a long list of problems. For example, every time I tried to order line kits from the old Aerodyne (Diablo, Triathlon, etc.), they told me long stories about all the mistakes made by field riggers re-lining their canopies in the past. blablablabla!!!!! I had to tell them repeatedly: "If you just send me factory specs, I will reline Aerodyne canopies in accordance with factory specs." The old Aerodyne had such a hard time grasping that concept that they went out of business. Fortunately, the New Aerodyne (Bushman, A2, Icon, Pilot, Smart, Solo, Triathlon, Vision, et al.) are far more open, even publishing line trim specs on their web site. ... which makes work WAAAAAAAY easier for field riggers. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
masterrigger1 2 #23 June 5, 2007 Sean, On a Safire I-169, the toggle should be 37 cm below the brake set loop. That is the stock location. Are your lines Spectra or Vectran? Cheers, MELSkyworks Parachute Service, LLC www.Skyworksparachuteservice.com Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
rehmwa 2 #24 June 5, 2007 QuoteWhen I later checked the trim I found that the outer lines (apart from the steering lines) had shrunk up to 6" and inboard lines less than 1.5". And how do you like your new reline then? (that delta of shrinkage is more than enough indicator for a reline) ... Driving is a one dimensional activity - a monkey can do it - being proud of your driving abilities is like being proud of being able to put on pants Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
riggerrob 558 #25 June 5, 2007 ... but they won't give out anything else because they don't want people making their own line sets for their canopies. >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> A lame excuse, if I ever heard one! Keeping field riggers in the dark only guarantees a long list of problems. For example, every time I tried to order line kits from the old Aerodyne (Diablo, Triathlon, etc.), they told me long stories about all the mistakes made by field riggers re-lining their canopies in the past. blablablabla!!!!! I had to tell them repeatedly: "If you just send me factory specs, I will reline Aerodyne canopies in accordance with factory specs." The old Aerodyne had such a hard time grasping that concept that they went out of business. Fortunately, the New Aerodyne (Bushman, A2, Icon, Pilot, Smart, Solo, Triathlon, Vision, et al.) are far more open, even publishing line trim specs on their web site. ... which makes work WAAAAAAAY easier for field riggers. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
