Moving Violations... Fight them or Accept Them?

[jlmiracle 7]

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Thats bullshit. They are there for safety, no ones gets a buzz out of issuing tickets and no officers
are on commision or have to fill a quota.

See my post above. It isn't for the officer's ego. It's for the city's revenue. Gawain is right; go ask your city hall.

So what you and Gawain are saying is Speed Limits are not for safety and just for revenue? Just think driving though a neighborhood at 55 mph with little kids playing outside and a ball rolls into the street, are you gonna be able to stop in time going 55 when the speed limit is say 30?

j

No, I need to explain a little better...of course they are going to set the speed limit according to safety. They will enforce it based upon revenue.

And no I have never driven 55 through a neighborhood with children.

So if the town doesn't need the revenue do you believe they would let everyone drive as fast as they want?

j

No, read what I wrote again. I'll highlight it.

I did. and it says they only pull people over for revenue, not safety. The speed limits are there but only as a way to "trap" you into breaking the law and collecting your money.

j

Be kinder than necessary because everyone you meet is fighting some kind of battle.

[AggieDave 6]

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less than ethical pressures placed on officers and departments to produce the expected numbers.

Quotas are illegal. Have been for some time actually.

In many departments if an officer writes zero traffic citations, nothing happens, if an officer writes 20 then many times the Sgt. wants to know why that officer wasn't taking calls for service and running so much traffic.

There are also quite a few officers that refuse to write for anything that wasn't 10mph or more over or other safety violations such as child safety seat use, red lights/stop signs and the similar.

There is a lot of misconception about the police and traffic citations. Much of it is lore as well as misconceptions from the 1960s-1970s and how things were done back then.

Personally I say fight the citation if you want to, many times officers get paid overtime to show up since court is rarely scheduled when the officer is on duty (not by fault, just because the courts don't really care what the officer's work schedule is).

If you fight it I think you loose your ability to take defensive driving for the citiation, though. Personally on the handful of citations I've recieved over the years I just took defensive driving to keep it off my insurance. That's just me and YMMV.

--"When I die, may I be surrounded by scattered chrome and burning gasoline."

[Scoop 0]

I liken people get off with offences on a technicality to the kid in the playground playing tag coming up with excuse for not being 'it'. 'Nuh-uh, I had my legs crossed, I wasn't touching the ground, you touched my shirt but you didn't touch me!'

Whatever happened to being honest and accepting the result of your actions. If you killed someone you'd have the rest of your life to realise why its dangerous and no amount of excuses would make it easier to live with yourself.

How do you react when people down drive your road really fast, you got kids and what if they play out the front. What if the difference of 5mph, which equates to about 30 seconds off your total journey time or something equally pathetic, is all the driver was doing that killed your child?

[ACMESkydiver 0]

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Who 'enforces' it based on revenue. Tickets are issued at officers discretion.

Yes but sending an officer out to a location isn't at the officer's discretion, is it? All I know is the police department and city hall would not send an officer out to patrol a dangerous situation because it would not generate enough revenue for the city. Read post #8 above.

You keep reading this like we're saying that it's the police officer that's getting the money from it. That's not what has been posted. Police officers are just employees. You have to follow their instructions, just like the rest of us in our jobs. And if the city tells you NOT to patrol an area, you aren't going to do it.

~Jaye
Do not believe that possibly you can escape the reward of your action.

[ACMESkydiver 0]

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I liken people get off with offences on a technicality to the kid in the playground playing tag coming up with excuse for not being 'it'. 'Nuh-uh, I had my legs crossed, I wasn't touching the ground, you touched my shirt but you didn't touch me!'

Whatever happened to being honest and accepting the result of your actions. If you killed someone you'd have the rest of your life to realise why its dangerous and no amount of excuses would make it easier to live with yourself.

How do you react when people down drive your road really fast, you got kids and what if they play out the front. What if the difference of 5mph, which equates to about 30 seconds off your total journey time or something equally pathetic, is all the driver was doing that killed your child?

I'm not arguing with someone that isn't reading my posts.

~Jaye
Do not believe that possibly you can escape the reward of your action.

[Zenister 0]

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less than ethical pressures placed on officers and departments to produce the expected numbers.

Quotas are illegal. Have been for some time actually.

agreed.

but they still exist, are still used and continual revenue expected. There are lots of 'legal' methods to induce higher revenue (when otherwise legal citations dip) that are simply a quota in sheeps clothing.

I've had two relatives switch from city to county (sherriff's dept doesnt do traffic citations except in cases of obvious public safety issues) for exactly those reasons. Formal Complaints do nothing but get you blackballed...

____________________________________
Those who fail to learn from the past are simply Doomed.

[ACMESkydiver 0]

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Thats bullshit. They are there for safety, no ones gets a buzz out of issuing tickets and no officers
are on commision or have to fill a quota.

See my post above. It isn't for the officer's ego. It's for the city's revenue. Gawain is right; go ask your city hall.

So what you and Gawain are saying is Speed Limits are not for safety and just for revenue? Just think driving though a neighborhood at 55 mph with little kids playing outside and a ball rolls into the street, are you gonna be able to stop in time going 55 when the speed limit is say 30?

j

No, I need to explain a little better...of course they are going to set the speed limit according to safety. They will enforce it based upon revenue.

And no I have never driven 55 through a neighborhood with children.

So if the town doesn't need the revenue do you believe they would let everyone drive as fast as they want?

j

No, read what I wrote again. I'll highlight it.

I did. and it says they only pull people over for revenue, not safety. The speed limits are there but only as a way to "trap" you into breaking the law and collecting your money.

j

That's ridiculous, now you're just trying to put words into my mouth. I'm done with this.

~Jaye
Do not believe that possibly you can escape the reward of your action.

[LisaM 0]

Time is money. :)

~ Lisa
~ Do you Rigminder?

[Scoop 0]

If the police are sent to patrol a fast road then that seems reasonable to me. I've done the same in my downtime but I much prefer lurking in the housing estates looking for shitbags.

I assure you there isn't a single officer in that police station, including supervisors who is thinking 'YES!, this will generate some nice money, maybe we'll get that new patrol car next year after all!'

I only dish out tickets if...

1) The persons actions are dangerous (automatically qualify talking on a mobile phone/running red light as dangerous)
2) After trying to give verbal advice they fail my 'attitude test' - normally by trying to tell me the law (incorrectly) Still don't know why people do this
3) They really are taking the piss with regards speeding. ie 15mph or more above the limit.

I say any police officer not taking action in these circumstances is not fulfilling their duties as a constable.

The other point of course, is that if you are caught speeding you are obviouslly not observing the road ahead of you. A person with a speed gun, a fixed camera, a police vehicle behind you or a vehicle parked are all easy things to spot

[AggieDave 6]

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but they still exist, are still used and continual revenue expected. There are lots of 'legal' methods to induce higher revenue (when otherwise legal citations dip) that are simply a quota in sheeps clothing.

I've had two relatives switch from city to county (sherriff's dept doesnt do traffic citations except in cases of obvious public safety issues) for exactly those reasons.

I won't disagree with you, I didn't see it, I wasn't there. I will say that its really not the norm now days (in TX atleast), having spoken with a lot of officers from across TX, infact its a severe minority of departments that are like that (semi-legal quotas). The pesky thing about doing things like that is it seems to generate lawsuits from citizens, that costs the city money and the money lost means the city takes it out of the police budget. That means less officers, less training, old worn out equipment and a severe black eye in terms of the department.

--"When I die, may I be surrounded by scattered chrome and burning gasoline."

[Darius11 12]

I agree with Max on this one.

They are simply for Revenue. If it were a safety issue they would stop the Mini van driver who has the dvd going, talking on her cell and changing lanes with out looking.

Another reason is no one does 55mph when it says 55mph. A law should not written in a way that 90% of population does not follow it.

I would love to see a much stricter driving course and fewer cops hiding the bushes waiting to give out tickets. Especially whenever I have seen a cop driving on the road they are usually braking the speed limit (this is whit there light off).

Keep in mind that when it says 55mph it means maximum speed is 55mph that means normally people should going around 50. Who does that?


As for speeding tickets. It really depends on my mood. I have fought one of the many I have received and won that one. Usually I just pay, not because of the way I was raised but it is not worth the time off work and the cost of gas to drive to court.


I really think we should concentrate on people learning how to drive then pulling people over. You don’t see Germans dyeing daily because of their infinite speed limit.

I'd rather be hated for who I am, than loved for who I am not." - Kurt Cobain

[NWFlyer 2]

Maybe I should have separated out this thread ... everyone is focusing just on speeding; what about other moving violations?

"There is only one basic human right, the right to do as you damn well please. And with it comes the only basic human duty, the duty to take the consequences." -P.J. O'Rourke

[jlmiracle 7]

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Keep in mind that when it says 55mph it means maximum speed is 55mph that means normally people should going around 50. Who does that?

people from Mississippi. I experience them every day.

Be kinder than necessary because everyone you meet is fighting some kind of battle.

[AggieDave 6]

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Especially whenever I have seen a cop driving on the road they are usually braking the speed limit (this is whit there light off).

Side note.

Many departments have very strict polices on when an officer can and will run "code" to a call. Many departments have gotten away from "Code 2" which is lights only and will run "Code 1" which is no warning equipment or "Code 3" which is lights and sirens.

So for many calls in which the person calling 911 would hope that the officer is running as fast as he/she can to get to the scene, domestic violence for example, the officer CAN'T due to policy and the liability it incures upon the department. So the officer will speed up and drive proficently through all the traffic to go help that person(s) with their important and dangerous situation.

Whats truely dangerous for many people are people that have a severe distain for officers and will do many things to block an officer's path even when the officer is running code.

--"When I die, may I be surrounded by scattered chrome and burning gasoline."

[Scoop 0]

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Keep in mind that when it says 55mph it means maximum speed is 55mph that means normally people should going around 50. Who does that?

Thats their choice, but the law is clear. that is a maximum limit. Not a guide with a tolearnce of plus or minus 20 miles an hour. I fail to see how you can argue with it. The 'I'm going the same speed as everyone else' argument is boring and pointless and if you raise it with a police officer it may be the difference between a bit of verbal advice and getting a ticket as they hear it so often.

Let me throw an analogy in there. What about exit seperation? What if you knew you had to leave 5 seconds but, you know, it doesn't really matter. Theres lots of sky and besides, you really want to get down 2 seconds quicker. So you exit earlier and have a collision somehow. Would it be OK because its just a guide or should you really have followed the plan?

[NWFlyer 2]

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I just took defensive driving to keep it off my insurance. That's just me and YMMV.

It's too bad defensive driving classes are just seen as a "hurdle" that people must go through to get a ticket off their insurance. I used to feel they were bullshit too, till I actually taught them (fun fact: in college I was a part-time driver for campus transit and I ran the training program one summer, including teaching defensive driving). I have been amazed how much my attitude towards the roads has changed since I had that job. Our safety records were evaluated based not on whether an accident was our fault, but on whether we could have prevented it.

Instead of running around getting all angry about the other idiots on the road, I focus on everything I can do to prevent being a victim of one of those idiots.

Good defensive driving classes can be really valuable tools, but only if someone is willing to listen and interested in learning. Unfortunately, after you've just gotten a speeding ticket and with the sole goal of making sure it doesn't go on your record is probably not the time.

"There is only one basic human right, the right to do as you damn well please. And with it comes the only basic human duty, the duty to take the consequences." -P.J. O'Rourke

[jlmiracle 7]

I was wondering if anyone has ever used the excuse "but if you average it out I'm well below the speed limit, since I had to go 30 in a 55 because people cannot talk on a cell phone and operate a vehicle and drive consideratly at the same time.

Just wonder, thought I might try it if I get pulled over.
j

Be kinder than necessary because everyone you meet is fighting some kind of battle.

[AggieDave 6]

I have to take defensive driving for my job's insurance, but I promise you I'm a much higher trained driver than 98% of all the other drivers out there.

To me it is a hurdle.

--"When I die, may I be surrounded by scattered chrome and burning gasoline."

[Scoop 0]

Indeed, in the UK there is a scheme called Pass PLus where once you have you licence you can take a furthur course which is defensive driving techniques. Once passed my insurance halved

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[Scoop 0]

You can try it but dont hold your breath
Speed limit is a maximum limit, not a mean, mode or median speed.

[lawrocket 3]

I have not fought a ticket. It turns out I only had one moving violation - a right turn on red. I did it, I paid it.

I had another infraction in college where I mailed in the fine without fighting it. When I was interviewed by a SPecial Agent with the DIS for my security clearance I was asked about it.
"No, I didn't fight it. I mailed in the fine."
"Why didn't you fight it?"
"Because I did it."
"But you could have fought it."
"No, I couldn't. Should I have gone to court and said, 'No, I didn't do it?' No. I'm not going to do that. I did something stupid and I got caught. I paid the fine and I learned my lesson. Next time I'll pee my pants and buy another 6 pairs - it'll be cheaper."
"I'm writing this down for your statement. Do you really want to use the word 'Stupid?'"
"Yeah. Underline it. Bold it. Put it in all caps! It was stupid. I've had two years to reflect on how stupid it was. Just like before, I'm not going to deny it was stupid when it was a stupid thing to do. I was stupid."

I gotta admit, the guy was shocked. When I met with him again a week later to go over it and sign it, he told me, "In over 20 years, I have never seen someone so up front and blunt about mistakes as you. You'll get your clearance. And if in the future anyone has questions about your credibility or integrity, have them call me."

He handed me his card. I still have it.

Folks, when you get caught, suck it up. If you are wrongly accused, fight tooth and nail.

My wife is hotter than your wife.

[NWFlyer 2]

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Folks, when you get caught, suck it up. If you are wrongly accused, fight tooth and nail.

Thank you for finally saying that, but I fear our culture doesn't really reward that. I see that every day. I still get strange looks at work when I say "I dropped the ball on that." It's like no one expects anyone to take responsibility any more.

"There is only one basic human right, the right to do as you damn well please. And with it comes the only basic human duty, the duty to take the consequences." -P.J. O'Rourke

[Scoop 0]

Hmm, dare I say it... isn't that modern America? It's always somones fault. Hence the lawsuit culture you have and we also seem to be adopting much to my disgust.

Its not Johnnies fault, he has ADHD. Hes from a single parent family. McDonalds makes us fat, etc

[d_squared431 0]

I just pay them. Not that I have had a lot of tickets. The only time I have ever fought a ticket was when there was a sign posted and I was going 25mph and it actually was a 15 mph zone. Nothing posted any where. Judge threw it out and I didn't have to pay a cent. About a month later there was a sign put up.

TPM Sister#130ONTIG#1
I love vodka.I love vodka cause it rhymes with Tuaca~LisaH
You having a clean thought is like billyvance having a clean post.iluvtofly

[NWFlyer 2]

Um, aren't you a cop in the UK? And you've been describing people trying to get out of tickets there, too (or at least trying to talk you out of issuing them). So I wouldn't say it's *just* an American thing. But we're certainly quite good at it.