teason 0 #51 May 4, 2007 Ok..... not John, nor Nancy and nor anyone else at the factory thinks that the Racer is Ugly. Period. What the ad was trying to say is that when you are buying something that is designed to save your life, there is something more important than "what you think is pretty" but rather what functions the best. Racer has never had a recall and that is the type of reliability the ad is alluding too and it implies that safety should be the primary consideration. Whether you like Racers or not, if you know about gear you must agree with that perspective. By the way, these are (in my opinion) the best looking rigs I've ever seen. The Tandem is hands down the best looking Tandem on the market (I think ) and at 40 lbs the most comfortable. .....but hey, what the f*(& do I know..... I would rather be a superb meteor, every atom of me in magnificent glow, than a sleepy and permanent planet. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
WeakMindedFool 0 #52 May 4, 2007 Skyhook! Only offered on Vector when I got it.Faith in a holy cause is to a considerable extent a substitute for lost faith in ourselves. -Eric Hoffer - Check out these Videos Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Tonto 1 #53 May 4, 2007 QuoteWhat the ad was trying to say is that when you are buying something that is designed to save your life, there is something more important than "what you think is pretty" but rather what functions the best. That's the risk of advertising. I read it as "It's ugly, but it works." QuoteRacer has never had a recall and that is the type of reliability the ad is alluding too and it implies that safety should be the primary consideration. Whether you like Racers or not, if you know about gear you must agree with that perspective. Really? Wasn't there a recall for the red teflon cut away cables that were cracking creating hard/impossible cutaway forces in the late 90's? Have a look at the attachment too. True, it's not a recall, it's a "Safety Notice." If I had a rig built in 1997, and it was good to 2017, I'd be pretty pissed off if it were relegated to "rounds only" in 2005, but you seem pretty sure about that racer reliability. As for "what functions the best" I think the Racer double sided RSL design has serious flaws in some operation modes - and I could see that as a sub 1000 jump wonder when I saw Don Yahrling's racer in 1992. I don't think that functions the best at all. After a team member got a line caught behind the reserve PC in a bad CRW wrap, I decieded that exposed PC's, whether they be on a Racer, Javlin, Vortex etc, simply create a variable I'd rather not deal with. I'm sure that "when properly packed" that will not ever be an issue, but I also see proponents of the racer saying riggers find it easy to pack, and there is conflict there, because if they are easy to pack, why would that happen? There's a lot of energy in some wraps, and lines will go where they can sometimes. In a world of high hop and pop drill dives with others, and 300 HMA, I think having the PC inside is a really, really good idea. I agree that the pic of the Tandem rig you posted is good looking, for a Tandem. The issues I mentioned WRT exposed Reserve PC should never apply to a Tandem, even in a canopy collision environment. tIt's the year of the Pig. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
RMURRAY 1 #54 May 4, 2007 you are the moderator and talking like this?? this thread is about what rig you jump and why not what rig you don't jump and why not. I jump a racer (and will only ever jump a racer) because of the reserve pin protection, comfort, reserve PC deployment, lightweight minimalist design, no need to lub the cutaway cable every month, affordable to to buy used, affordable to buy replacement parts, good main riser protection while not impeding deployment of a HP canopy (no poorly designed tuck tabs), excellent customer service, they are NOT everywhere, and this is the best one - some people just love to hate them.... rm Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Tonto 1 #55 May 4, 2007 Quoteyou are the moderator and talking like this?? No, you are incorrect. I'm not a moderator in this forum. The top of this forum indicates, Forums: Skydiving: Gear and Rigging (126660 posts in 10023 threads) Moderators: slotperfect so slotperfect is the moderator for this forum. I moderate only the Incidents and Swooping and Canopy Control forums and am allowed to participate in any other discussions on this website as long as I stay within the rules, same as any other poster. tIt's the year of the Pig. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
stratostar 5 #56 May 4, 2007 Quote1. Ugly. Even Racers know they're ugly. Their own ads once said.. "At 600ft, the last thing you need is pretty gear." No that ad said "at 2000' the last thing you need is pretty gear." I'm sure if i dig around I still have that ad, it was and is one of my favorite ads of all time. in fact I still use that saying today when people trip out on jumping retro rigs like my vintage SST like that used was in the ad.you can't pay for kids schoolin' with love of skydiving! ~ Airtwardo Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Unstable 8 #57 May 4, 2007 I bought a new Racer 2K3 and I love it. there are waaay too many racer threads already on DZ.com. People who have racers will swear on them to their mothers grave and those who don't like them will never be convinced. I jump a racer and my next rig will be a Racer, and I have people who won't trust me as a rigger because they feel this shows 'lack of judgement.' whatever. I give you credit, Tonto. At least you back up your arguments in regards to the subject. You at least have an argument! Frankly I've had 'discussions' with PLENTY of people who think a racer is a death-trap and don't know jack about them. =========Shaun ========== Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
pastramionrye7 0 #58 May 4, 2007 QuoteQuote1. Ugly. Even Racers know they're ugly. Their own ads once said.. "At 600ft, the last thing you need is pretty gear." No that ad said "at 2000' the last thing you need is pretty gear." I'm sure if i dig around I still have that ad, it was and is one of my favorite ads of all time. in fact I still use that saying today when people trip out on jumping retro rigs like my vintage SST like that used was in the ad. Here's the ad for anyone who's interested. Edited to add attachment. Oops. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Scoop 0 #59 May 4, 2007 Sweet picture I guess they played on public opinion the same way Skoda did when they were taken over by VW with their funny self mocking adverts: "I'm sorry sir, some little vandal appears to have put a Skoda badge on your car" Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
LloydDobbler 2 #60 May 4, 2007 Not to get into the fray of the Racers-being-ugly discussion...I jump a 2003 Vector 3, with Skyhook. Or at least, I will jump it, once my broken wrists heal from a snowboarding accident that happened the day before it arrived at my rigger's... Remind me again which sport is unsafe? As to why I (will) jump it: Why? 1) It fits me like a glove. 2) It has all the features I was looking for (including a skyhook) at a really sweet price. 3) I, too, think that more $ given to Bill Booth will ultimately contribute to the sport. Even if I'm not giving it directly to him, I figure I'm contributing to mindshare by jumping a used one of his rigs. 4) Because I said "Vectors are ugly" the day before I found this rig, and it proved me wrong. Signatures are the new black. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
teason 0 #61 May 4, 2007 Quote Have a look at the attachment too. True, it's not a recall, it's a "Safety Notice." If I had a rig built in 1997, and it was good to 2017, I'd be pretty pissed off if it were relegated to "rounds only" in 2005, but you seem pretty sure about that racer reliability. Tonto, that was just shamefull equivocation, I would expect more from you. Well, you are talking about old Racer trainers here. Not only that, the re designation was in response to fatalities that happened to another manufacturer that used the same design with other webbing and the container can still be used ,with a harness change, just like that other manufacturer. (I've change 10 harnesses from that particular manufacturer at great expense and got back the same flawed design!) Just so that it is perfectly clear to everyone else reading, an adjustable main lift web design that is still in use by other manufacturers to this day is considered "not good enough" by Jumpshack. Jumpshack never had a fatality but another manufacturer had two. Jumpshack said don't use that design with squares, the other manufacturer just keeps on making them. Jumpshack changed that design before the fatalities happen because they realized there was a better design, the other Manufacturer had 2 fatalities and hasn't changed anything. That is the commitment to reliability. Compare how many SBs have been issued for Vectors and Javs to how many have been issued for the Racer. Bringing up the few Racer SBs without mentioning that they have the fewest overall is equivocation (telling half truths to deceive) and has no place in intelligent discussion. Quote As for "what functions the best" I think the Racer double sided RSL design has serious flaws in some operation modes - and I could see that as a sub 1000 jump wonder when I saw Don Yahrling's racer in 1992. I don't think that functions the best at all. Jumpshack puts Function first. The Ad just asks you to do the same. What your opinion is about the RSL is totally irrelevant to the point of the ad. Others feel the double sided to be superior .... so what... the origional claim was that the ad said Racers were ugly, I tried to inform you otherwise and now we are talking RSLs. I actually respect the argument and feel it has merit in a debate about RSLs but not here. Quote After a team member got a line caught behind the reserve PC in a bad CRW wrap, I decieded that exposed PC's, whether they be on a Racer, Javlin, Vortex etc, simply create a variable I'd rather not deal with. I'm sure that "when properly packed" that will not ever be an issue, but I also see proponents of the racer saying riggers find it easy to pack, and there is conflict there, because if they are easy to pack, why would that happen? There's a lot of energy in some wraps, and lines will go where they can sometimes. In a world of high hop and pop drill dives with others, and 300 HMA, I think having the PC inside is a really, really good idea. That is also an excellent, thought out point. So I guess what you're saying, to those who may choose Racers because we like the look, is that in a CRW wrap, the last thing you need is pretty gear. I like the way you think....I would rather be a superb meteor, every atom of me in magnificent glow, than a sleepy and permanent planet. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
gjhdiver 0 #62 May 5, 2007 Quote Tried to sell the reflex a long time ago, but it's pretty much not sellable. Dave Give it to Bill Von. He's a bottomless pit for those things. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
pilotdave 0 #63 May 5, 2007 Quote Quote Tried to sell the reflex a long time ago, but it's pretty much not sellable. Dave Give it to Bill Von. He's a bottomless pit for those things. Did I mention it's pink? Dave Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
NewGuy2005 51 #64 May 5, 2007 QuoteJumpshack never had a fatality but another manufacturer had two. Jumpshack said don't use that design with squares, the other manufacturer just keeps on making them. Jumpshack changed that design before the fatalities happen because they realized there was a better design, the other Manufacturer had 2 fatalities and hasn't changed anything. Who is the "other manufacturer?" Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
flygirl1 0 #65 May 5, 2007 vector 3I got one because I wanted a sky hook and I liked the Vector I was renting. Fly like a girl Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
2shay 0 #66 May 5, 2007 you will love it I love minedon't try your bullshit with me!!! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
gjhdiver 0 #67 May 7, 2007 Quote Quote Quote Tried to sell the reflex a long time ago, but it's pretty much not sellable. Dave Give it to Bill Von. He's a bottomless pit for those things. Did I mention it's pink? Hell, mine had my name embroidered on it and that's way worse. Dave Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Tonto 1 #68 May 7, 2007 I get it. You like your gear. tIt's the year of the Pig. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
blitzkrieg 0 #69 May 7, 2007 i currently own two (almost) identical Vector III Microns with SkyHooks. 1. love the SkyHook, Bill Booth & his cronies are genius! i've had a few skyhook rides and still love them. this is why... http://www.skydivingmovies.com/ver2/pafiledb.php?action=file&id=5671 2. comfort and fit is top notch for taller people like myself. 3. i like when people ooh and ahhh at the fact they look like camel-baks.4. i do not like pop top reserves. it drives me nuts to see peoples reserve PCs or bridles poking out from the flaps. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
2shay 0 #70 May 7, 2007 I dont like pop tops either. I am just die hard v3 Bill is a genius. Good thing is that I see more and more all the time.don't try your bullshit with me!!! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
drjump 0 #71 May 7, 2007 Dave--what's wrong with a Reflex? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
pilotdave 0 #72 May 7, 2007 Quote Dave--what's wrong with a Reflex? Well, there are some things I don't like, but in general, nothing. I sort of like it... if it wasn't pink and with too big a main and too small a reserve. It's comfortable, all the flaps stay closed until they're supposed to open, etc. I have had problems with the pop top... definitely wouldn't buy another fully exposed pop top rig. Hard to find a rigger that packs them well, and no matter what, it works itself a little loose over time and has to be tightened. If the reserve wasn't packed just right, it will stick way up. But basically it's worth too little to sell. Works fine as a backup rig, so I'm keeping it. Reflex, PD150 main, Microraven 120 reserve... nobody wants any of those anymore. Plus, whenever I have it out, I get asked "who's racer is that??" Nothing worse than being thought of as a racer owner! (just kidding) Dave Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
drjump 0 #73 May 7, 2007 Dave-Thanks for the reply. I've got a 1m+ jumps on my Reflex without a problem or complaint. Yes, the reserve PC does loosen up a bit. Just have your rigger replace the closing loop in the pilot chute and that should cut down on the slippage, it did on mine. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
teason 0 #74 May 8, 2007 Quote I get it. You like your gear. I think you totally missed the point. ..But yes I do. I built them so I kinda got real intimate with the design.By the way, I own 15 Javelins.I would rather be a superb meteor, every atom of me in magnificent glow, than a sleepy and permanent planet. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
