Exit order: horse dead beat.

[base698 1]

At our DZ the freefliers exit first (yes we are one of the only ones). With the increase in canopy collisions and such I was rethinking the policy of freefliers out last (because I tend to agree freefliers last is a better idea). Most of the freefliers jump at wingloadings above 1.6 at my DZ. When going out after the RW groups at other DZs I've noticed that its easy for the freefliers to overtake the RW groups. In a lot of cases it isn't a problem holding in brakes waiting for others to land but... This causes extra landing clutter when part of the RW group has a much lighter wingloading. When freefliers exit first at our DZ I almost never encounter the RW groups. Instead of totally depending on the competancy of the pilots, outright prevention seems a better solution. I think the way to go about it would be better load planning: taking into account opening altitude, wing loading, and type of jump altogether is a better idea.

Maybe take into account more separation at intervals having two types of jumps (ie rw and freefly).

What does everyone else think?

[MrHixxx 0]

http://www.skydiveaz.com/Exit_Order.htm

If you check out this link, I think you will find why it is not such a good idea for them to exit first. I practice both disciplines and have no problem with getting out after the RW folks when I freefly and my loading is 2.25. I look at it this way. I have control over negotiating canopy traffic and creating seperation when I want it. I have no control over a RW guy with a total mal falling through the top of my canopy.

-Hixxx

death,as men call him, ends what they call men
-but beauty is more now than dying’s when

[quade 3]

I think the excuse that the freeflyers have higher wingloadings and therefore are safer going out first is faulty thinking on several points.

The first problem is separation at opening and has been analyzed ad nauseum by numerous people. Anyone that has not seen all of the analysis really ought to. It's pretty irrefutable.

The second point is the assumption that freeflyer generally have higher wingloadings on average than flatflyers. Not only is this unproven, I think if you look at what the absolute top competitors in both swooping and 4-way are jumping, you'll find not only are the canopies much the same, but, so are a lot of the people.

Lastly, if a person can't avoid other canopies with what they're jumping, then maybe, they shouldn't be jumping the canopy they're jumping. If someone chooses to fly a small, fast canopy, it is their responsibily to see and avoid all traffic no matter what. Period.

quade -
The World's Most Boring Skydiver

[SkydiveMonkey 0]

Freeflyers out last imho. Just leave enough seperation. Shame most people work off 5 seconds, even if the uppers mean the plane has a 20mph ground speed . How many people have run the freefall simulation with Rw and FF out first? Unless there's a massive delay, the rw groups end up over the top or even behind of the FF'ers.

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[base698 1]

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I have control over negotiating canopy traffic and creating seperation when I want it. I have no control over a RW guy with a total mal falling through the top of my canopy.

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Lastly, if a person can't avoid other canopies with what they're jumping, then maybe, they shouldn't be jumping the canopy they're jumping. If someone chooses to fly a small, fast canopy, it is their responsibily to see and avoid all traffic no matter what. Period.

Sounds like the bulk of what I was saying was overlooked. In a fantasy land where everyone is qualified to jump what they do that would be practical, but everyone thoughs this not to be the case.

My main point is this: Different situations require different approaches to exit order. I think you must take into account: type of jump(freefly, rw), wingloadings, pull altitude, and the uppers. There are times at our DZ when strong uppers had the freefliers going out last. I never have an issue with RW groups opening close to me there and I've done hundreds of jumps going out before RW groups.

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The second point is the assumption that freeflyer generally have higher wingloadings on average than flatflyers. Not only is this unproven, I think if you look at what the absolute top competitors in both swooping and 4-way are jumping, you'll find not only are the canopies much the same, but, so are a lot of the people.

We've had/have super hot 4-way competitors that jump insance wingloadings and pull consistantly at 2000 or below. In this case they would go out first.

[billvon 2,426]

>Most of the freefliers jump at wingloadings above 1.6 at my DZ. When going
>out after the RW groups at other DZs I've noticed that its easy for the
>freefliers to overtake the RW groups.
>This causes extra landing clutter when part of the RW group has a much lighter wingloading.

Take the case of 10 seconds between groups, 2 freefly and 2 RW groups. That's a max of 30 seconds, first opener to last opener. Given a head start of 30 seconds and a significant difference in loading (i.e. 1.6 to 1 vs 1 to 1) the 1.6 to 1 guy will have no problem landing first. 30 seconds just isn't that much of a head start, especially since newer jumpers under lighter loadings tend to pull a bit higher and tend not to spiral as much.

>I think the way to go about it would be better load planning: taking into account opening altitude,
>wing loading, and type of jump altogether is a better idea.

I think that's too many variables. What do you do with a group of freeflyers who all have 2 to 1 loadings but want to open a bit high to play with their canopies? I think exit spacing should be to give sufficient exit separation on opening, and 90% of that separation must be horizontal (i.e. NEVER sacrifice horizontal for vertical separation.) After opening, it's a new game. I haven't seen many places where "crowding" during landing is a big problem outside of, say, 120-ways, and there's no way around that.

[quade 3]

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Sounds like the bulk of what I was saying was overlooked. In a fantasy land where everyone is qualified to jump what they do that would be practical, but everyone thoughs this not to be the case.

Not overlooked at all.

Hey, I totally agree that we all live in a real world and not definately not a perfect one. The problem is that there is no rule whatsoever that can take into account the people that aren't going to follow it anyway. The entire concept of a rule implies that people need to at least try to follow it.

Since exit order based on fall rates is pretty much irrefutable and not variable based on the laws of physics, then decisions should probably be based around that and the variable parts of canopy separation then fall into the realm of see and avoid and good judgement.

I dunno. Am I missing something or am I just not giving you the answer you wanted me to give you?

quade -
The World's Most Boring Skydiver

[PhreeZone 15]

What might need to be looked at is if you have a 4 way and a 3 way group and the 3 way has faster canopies letting them go before the 4 way.

Yesterday is history
And tomorrow is a mystery

Parachutemanuals.com

[quade 3]

Maybe but who wins in a tie?

Nawww, if you're talking about 3-way and 4-way belly to earth groups basing their exit order on faster canopies then you're really just splittting hairs based of the desires of the 3-way. In reality, if seven people can't see and avoid each other in the air, then maybe there's something really wrong there.

Trust me, when you do 120-ways very few people get placed in their slots and breakoff plan based on canopy size. That's just silly. Certainly a Twin Otter load ought to be able to do it and anything less than a full Twin Otter load getting out on the same pass shouldn't be an issue at all.

quade -
The World's Most Boring Skydiver

[Jimbo 0]

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What might need to be looked at is if you have a 4 way and a 3 way group and the 3 way has faster canopies letting them go before the 4 way.

Like Quade, I disagree with this statement. Exit order needs to be based on horizontal separation. Who has a faster canopy is irrelevant when there is a premature deployment on group in front of you.

-
Jim

"Like" - The modern day comma
Good bye, my friends. You are missed.

[pilotdave 0]

How about freeflyers out first with a downwind jumprun?
Dave

[billvon 2,426]

>How about freeflyers out first with a downwind jumprun?

No problem; during downwind jump runs with strong uppers, exit sep is rarely a problem to begin with - and FF out first gives you more separation anyway if you're flying downwind.

[kallend 1,644]

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>How about freeflyers out first with a downwind jumprun?

No problem; during downwind jump runs with strong uppers, exit sep is rarely a problem to begin with - and FF out first gives you more separation anyway if you're flying downwind.

But watch out for the spot!

...

The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one.

[ERICCONNELLY 0]

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Who has a faster canopy is irrelevant when there is a premature deployment on group in front of you.

OR a late deployment/cutaway in the group behind you.

[pilotdave 0]

Well, other than the possibility of a bad spot, a downwind jumprun would mean the open canopies from the freeflyers would be heading in the same direction the next groups are drifting in freefall. Those RW jumpers might be opening just a few hundred feet directly over the freeflyers under canopy. Sounds like a bad idea. Hence the

Dave

[billvon 2,426]

>a downwind jumprun would mean the open canopies from the
>freeflyers would be heading in the same direction the next groups
> are drifting in freefall.

The same effect that gives you good separation when you exit RW then freeflyers when flying into the wind gives you good separation when you exit freeflyers first when flying downwind.

[tbrown 26]

But wouldn't a downwind jump run be moving over the spot too fast. I mean if there's any appreciable wind, the plane's going to have a faster ground speed and people are going to have to really hustle. Isn't it just safer to fly the plane into the wind, slowing the ground speed down and allowing more time for climbouts, etc. ?

Your humble servant.....Professor Gravity !

[SkydiveMonkey 0]

In an ideal world. How many people take the uppers into account? Go anywhere and it's 5 seconds - NEXT !!

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Say no to subliminal messages

[LouDiamond 1]

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In an ideal world. How many people take the uppers into account? Go anywhere and it's 5 seconds - NEXT !!

AH, NO. I don't know where you've been jumping but thats not how it's done at a majority of the DZs around the country. Thats not to say it doesn't happen on occassion by those less informed but it's not a common occurance.

"It's just skydiving..additional drama is not required"
Some people dream about flying, I live my dream
SKYMONKEY PUBLISHING

[bbarnhouse 0]

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How many people take the uppers into account?

Standard procedure here. All of the info is posted by the tram and any changes are vocalized before exit on jumprun.

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Go anywhere and it's 5 seconds - NEXT !!

This just isn't a true statement.
BB

[SkydiveMonkey 0]

Is where I jump

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Say no to subliminal messages

[bbarnhouse 0]

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Go anywhere and it's 5 seconds

This was the statement made. It may be true where you jump, and if so I would strongly encourage you to address it with your Safety Advisor.
BB

[LouDiamond 1]

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Is where I jump

then I suggest you take responsibility for your safety and those who jump at your DZ and inform them of the error they are commiting and the potential for catostophic consequences if they continue to practice( if they do indeed do so)such poor seperation habits. Whats the name of the DZ you jump at?

"It's just skydiving..additional drama is not required"
Some people dream about flying, I live my dream
SKYMONKEY PUBLISHING

[SkydiveMonkey 0]

Langar is like that a lot (always have people on my back there for giving good seperation), Sibson is generally really good though. Hib was ok, although i did feel hurried (being told to go on 3 isn't good)

____________________
Say no to subliminal messages

[billvon 2,426]

>But wouldn't a downwind jump run be moving over the spot too fast.

Yes, that's the biggest single problem with downwind jump runs. In theory you can get the same exit separation and put as many groups out, but in practice, you have to move _really_ fast to make that happen.