metal reserve handles Vs Pillows, Opinions?

[Chris-Ottawa 0]

Thanks!

I read through that, and still see it referring to the only real "issue" is in a panic situation when you can't see it, you can feel it. And for that I agree. I understand now what would make the cutaway and reserve locations different (harness tension or not). That makes alot of sense. I also thought of if you dropped the reserve handle, the softie will grab more air, but the D handle will grab alot too. There is advantages and disadvantages to both.

I can't speak from experience as I've only had 1 cutaway and it was a soft cutaway and a normal (large) D ring. I kept both handles and yes, my thumb went through the D ring to pull. I can see the advantage of that. I also practice my EP's ALL the time. People laugh at me in the plane, I'll check it 4 times in the plane sometimes. Never less than twice. PLus on the ground.

Thanks for the link!

Chris

"When once you have tasted flight..."

[Ron 7]

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Why is everyone concerned about a reserve pillow when cutaway pillows are pretty much standard? I figure, if one is a pillow, why not make it the same? Can someone clarify on the difference, or something I may be overlooking? If you're worried about slipping or not getting a good grip, why would cutaways be made of the exact same material/method?

Simple...you will not die if you do not cutaway, you might die with a double out/entanglement, but that is not a fact. You *will* die if you cutaway and cannot deploy the reserve.

Also, every mal I have had I was under something...So I had some time. Once free of the mal, I quickly went back to freefall speed and the amount of time I had till impact was reduced.

Now imagine a total mal. You are screaming earthward at 120 mph with nothing out. Which handle do you want? The really easy to find/grip/pull? Or the one that is even a little harder?

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I did read about if your hand was broken and you couldn't pull, but you have a second hand as well if it came to that.

Good point, put your rig on. Try to grab a soft handle with the opposite hand and see if you think you could pull it. Now do the same with a metal "D" ring. Now imagine a situation where your arm is hurt, say after a collision....Which handle do you think would be easier to pull with a hurt arm, or the other arm?

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It seems that some people are dead against pillow reserve handles, while others are all for it, and some are in between.

Same thing with pud vs pullout...ect.

The question you need to ask people when they give an opinion is have they had a mal yet? If not, then I tend to discount their opinion on what is best.

But put your rig on for the next repack, or go visit your local rigger and ask to deploy his next rig due for a pack job. Put the rig on and see if you can deloy the reserve with the opposite hand. Now imagine a chaotic event where your life depends on your ability to deploy....Which sounds better?

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I'm basically just wondering why I should be concerned about my reserve handle and not my cutaway?

Great question.

1. You will die unless you get a reserve out...People have survived not cutting away.

2. If you have a mal where you need to cutaway, you may not be at terminal, and therfore have some time to fiddle if you have to....After the chop you will be back in freefall with no time to watse. Also a total mal you need to stop the jump with little time to fuss with a handle.

3. As Bill Booth explained, the tension on the Reserve PC will hold the pin in place, where a floating cutaway handle will most likely get pulled out. I have seen both and the reserve handle just stayed flapping around while the cutaway extracted.

Hope that helps....Really, try to pull the reserve with the opposite hand. That will settle a bunch of things for you.

BTW there has been one death I know off due to a premature reserve deployment...FF guy getting yanked out while head down. A low profile metal handle might have prevented that, a pillow most likely would. But compare that to the number of people who never got a reserve out and hit the ground.

"No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

[mjosparky 3]

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I am waiting to make that call after I use them the first time.

How soon would you like that to happen?

My idea of a fair fight is clubbing baby seals

[Chris-Ottawa 0]

Hi Ron,

I'm sorry if my question came off as naive, but I had no other way of putting it. I was seriously interested why it's a touchy subject.

I made the other hand pull situation because it was brought up, and in a panic, I agree a D would be easier to grab, but I'f sure I could manage to pull it "IF" I had to with my opposite hand. If you gave me a solid piece of metal 3 inches thick, and told me I had to bend it to get my reserve out, then chucked me from a plane, I'd bend that rod plain and simple. (That's a joke, but as long as I could find the handle I'm sure I could pull it.)

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Now imagine a total mal. You are screaming earthward at 120 mph with nothing out. Which handle do you want? The really easy to find/grip/pull? Or the one that is even a little harder?

That statement right there my friend, makes me want a D, and it's something I may ask my rigger about.

I appreciate the reply

Chris

"When once you have tasted flight..."

[Ron 7]

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I'm sorry if my question came off as naive, but I had no other way of putting it.

No, it was a great question. I hope you didn't take my answer the wrong way.

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I made the other hand pull situation because it was brought up, and in a panic, I agree a D would be easier to grab, but I'f sure I could manage to pull it "IF" I had to with my opposite hand.

I would ask you try it with your rig at the next repack. Tests like this will teach you loads. It *can* be done and to be honest the chances of needing to do it are slim. But, why risk it? Do the test and make a better informed choice.

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I appreciate the reply

If you have any questions, you can always PM me if you don't want to ask "out loud". But of course take any advice *including mine* and run it past an instructor you like.

It also helps if the instructor likes you, and is not hitting on your GF

"No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

[Chris-Ottawa 0]

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It also helps if the instructor likes you, and is not hitting on your GF

Personal experience?

"When once you have tasted flight..."

[phoenixlpr 0]

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Most likely you would have done it with any combination of types of handles. If you could not remember, "Right then Left" You most likely would not have remembered which handle was soft and which was hard.

I was a student with 32 jumps under a full malfunction for the first time. I have failed to execute proper emergency procedure.

Color does not matter. Shape and grip/touch does.

I had jumps with soft/soft handles as a student.
I had jumps with hard/hard setup. I've spent more time for preparing for jumping that rig with unusual handle setup.

I had my cut-away pillow folded under the webbing, but I have noticed and corrected.

I don't want to have a hard cut-away handle, see Bill Booth's post.

I don't want to have a soft reserve handle. I does not have the same grip, it can not be pulled by a single thumb and it is not legal in the country I am jumping now.

[Ron 7]

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Color does not matter. Shape and grip/touch does.

Your opinion. I know plenty of folks that think that color does matter. Since you are trained to "look/grab", not "feel/grab".

"No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

[phoenixlpr 0]

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Your opinion. I know plenty of folks that think that color does matter. Since you are trained to "look/grab", not "feel/grab".

I hope when I have spent as much time in this sport as you did I still able to remember how is being a student.

I do know that I have not received the best training in the world.

Pillow reserve handle is not recommended by the inventor of the 3 ring cut-away system or not even by me.

[sundevil777 93]

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I don't want to have a hard cut-away handle, see Bill Booth's post.

You don't have to have a metal cutaway handle to have a cutaway handle with a hole for the thumb. I use a loop cutaway handle that is no heavier, perhaps lighter than the normal pad handle, so that aspect of a good handle is no problem. Some cutaway pads have started to have holes/pockets to insert a thumb.

People are sick and tired of being told that ordinary and decent people are fed up in this country with being sick and tired. I’m certainly not, and I’m sick and tired of being told that I am

[Ron 7]

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I hope when I have spent as much time in this sport as you did I still able to remember how is being a student.

It helps to be an Instructor...I have to think like a student all the time.

You have a point that different is better, I just do not agree that that is going to make the biggest difference.

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I do know that I have not received the best training in the world.

Seems to me like you are trying to fix that...so thats good.

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Pillow reserve handle is not recommended by the inventor of the 3 ring cut-away system or not even by me.

For the record.....I don't think people should get one without some serious thought and maybe a Mal where they have performed under the stress of the situation.

I think most benefits to the soft handle can be gained by a low profile metal handle....With all the benefits of a metal handle.

I only have the soft handle since Derick T. asked me to try it.....I am still torn on if I like it to be honest and have decided to keep it till I have a mal.

"No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

[labrys 0]

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There were a lot of complaints about my lack of grippers when I did RW

You need this model... at least it has one somewhat "central" gripper.

http://www.abailey.org/album/album69/DCP_4253

Owned by Remi #?

[Amazon 7]

I USED to love my pillows for both cutaway and reserve.. BUT after dislocating my ring finger...I switched to a low profile D handle... because everytime my left hand gets cold I could not get my hand to make a good grip on the pillow.. At least with the D ring.....I can loop my thumb thru it.

[teason 0]

That ain't a "D" handle,
This is a "D"handle!

I get flak for these mini Ds all the time. I may have gone a bit too far.

I would rather be a superb meteor, every atom of me in magnificent glow, than a sleepy and permanent planet.

[lauras 0]

4 mals: first two with d-rings, second two with pillows. i put the d-ring back on. i happen to like getting all my fingers around some metal while i'm being spun around on my back (damn ellipticals & me!). i have had a student panic and grab at my d-ring in the door once and that made me bend his fingers backwards really fast. it's made me super hyper-aware of how students get in the door. i've thought of changing to the low-profile d-ring since then which i think would be a perfectly fine option for me, but i don't know how people with big hands would fare. jody recently packed one up and could barely squeeze in a thumb. not a great option when you're in the basement, i think.

as a side note re: cutaway handles: even when i owned a javelin & currently my wings, i installed a relative workshop cutaway handle because with my munchkin hands + neumanns, i felt i had the most secure grip with it in comparison to anything else on the market. the aerodyne pillow handles, i felt, were "backwards" in that the front of the pillow was flat and the back was curved. just felt weird to me. they may have changed it though...this was on the '05 models.

i can see in freeflying that things like hackeys & d-rings could easily become potential snag points, but not in fs - even with really fast 4-way verticals. not that i've gone all that fast...

[RMURRAY 1]

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That ain't a "D" handle,
This is a "D"handle!

I get flak for these mini Ds all the time. I may have gone a bit too far.

nice rig! Looks very secure. what is the steel cable on the cutaway handle? edit... I see you are comparing to a normal sized D handle.

rm

[mjosparky 3]

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That ain't a "D" handle,
This is a "D"handle!

I get flak for these mini Ds all the time. I may have gone a bit too far.

Check post #5, I have both my rigs set up that way and have for 20 years.

My idea of a fair fight is clubbing baby seals

[kallend 1,625]

I've only had 2 cutaways, but each time I remember thinking how much easier the D handle was to find/pull than was the pillow.

...

The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one.

[teason 0]

I saw it, I like it.

I get flak for the size of the handles, they are 3" low profile as opposed to the standard 4".

They're easier than capewells to get the thumbs in.

I would rather be a superb meteor, every atom of me in magnificent glow, than a sleepy and permanent planet.

[ripcord4 0]

I have a loop-style cutaway handle and a Martin-Baker handle for the reserve. I feel both are easier to grip/pull. I can put a thumb through either one and easily push it away. Think about a broken arm and trying to grip a cushion and pull.