reserve riser damaged from velcro

[bodypilot90 0]

I just got a call from my rigger that my reserve risers have some damage do to velcro pricking from the reserve toggle stow. is it due perhaps from the last rigger not stowing the toggles correctly? It's a G3 mirage. I assume it's going to be costly to fix.

[ZigZagMarquis 8]

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...is it due perhaps from the last rigger not stowing the toggles correctly?....

Possibly. Rather then the toggles not stowed properly, it may be more like the "hook" portion of the Velco wasn't completely covered by the "pile", thus leaving some of the hook exposed to wear against what ever it touched.

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I assume it's going to be costly to fix.

It won't be cheap, but I don't think we're talking $1000s of dollars either. Contact the manufacturer or have your rigger contact them.

If you have a decent camera, take some pics and post them here and send them to the manufacturer to see what they come back with.

What has your rigger recommended other then alerting you to the issue??

[riggerrob 563]

Yes, I saw similar damage to a Mirage G3, a couple of years ago.
Trying to remember .... I think it had something to do with unused RSL Velcro that was not covered and eventually chewed the reserve riser.
I have also seen this several times on Javelins, that had RSLs removed, but no one bothered to cover the hook Velcro on the reserve riser.
The simple answer is to cover all exposed, unused hook Velcro, with an extra piece of pile Velcro.

No, removing unused RSL Velcro is a bad idea, because the second owner may want to install an RSL and that is difficult or impossible if Velcro has been removed. ... and trying to replace RSL Velcro on a completed rig varies from difficult to impossible.

[councilman24 36]

This happens in several ways. I just inspected a rig last night. The velcro on the main toggles didn't cover all the hook velcro on the risers. This hook velcro was then in contact with the front/top of the front reserve riser when packed. This damage was fairly minor and I would have let it go. BTW my guess is the damage on your RESERVE risers is from you MAIN toggle velcro. The Reserve toggle velcro is on the back of the rear reserve riser and not usually in contact with anything except the bottom of the reserve container, or perhaps the harness at the shoulder if the risers are short and the harness not covered.

But.. other damage had been caused by the rsl velcro. The RSL doesn't have to be removed for damaged to occur. On many rigs the RSL is pulled from the velcro on the reserve riser a little when the main is opened. In other words there isn't enough slack in the snap end of the lanyard. This exposes some of the hook to the adjacent riser. On the rig last night the damage was major. Individual threads had been snaged and pulled from the weave. Fibers in these threads had been damaged. This was far beyond the usual "fuzzinees" damage seen from velcro. I deemed this harness unairworthy. (It had some other things wrong too but this would have been enough) This was some of the worst velcro damage I've ever seen.

In the early 90's Dan Wilcox, then with RWS, did some tensile testing studies of various common damage. Bad fuzzy velcro damaged decreased the tensile strength of a type 8 chest strap significantly; IIRC something like 10 or 20 %.

I have deemed several rigs with reserve riser damage unairworthy. Some of it has been bad velcro damage. The other damage I've seen several times is from the sharp edge of French links. The edge of the threads can be very sharp and easily cut some fibers in the riser when being installed.

Some h/c websites list costs from some common repairs. This is probably replacing one side of the harness. I you didn't realize the front (and sometimes the also the rear) reserve riser is the same piece of webbing as the lep strap. For reference Sunpath lists an entire new non ring harness as being $350.

I'm old for my age.
Terry Urban
D-8631
FAA DPRE

[bodypilot90 0]

yea he sent it to mirage today

[fcajump 155]

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I have also seen this several times on Javelins, that had RSLs removed, but no one bothered to cover the hook Velcro on the reserve riser.

Been there, seen it.
BTW - in discussing a very old Javelin with Sunpath and (if I remember correctly) it was mentioned that the factory DOES NOT PERMIT the removal of RSLs from Javelins. They consider the RSL to be part of the TSO'ed system and is required on all systems on which they were originally installed. (Though they are not required to be connected to the Main risers... jumper's choice at that point...)

Just what I remember, but if you see it, call them...
JW

Always remember that some clouds are harder than others...

[masterrig 1]

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I have also seen this several times on Javelins, that had RSLs removed, but no one bothered to cover the hook Velcro on the reserve riser.

Been there, seen it.
BTW - in discussing a very old Javelin with Sunpath and (if I remember correctly) it was mentioned that the factory DOES NOT PERMIT the removal of RSLs from Javelins. They consider the RSL to be part of the TSO'ed system and is required on all systems on which they were originally installed. (Though they are not required to be connected to the Main risers... jumper's choice at that point...)

Just what I remember, but if you see it, call them...
JW

______________________________

You are correct about Sunpath and their RSL's.


Chuck

[bodypilot90 0]

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you MAIN toggle velcro

I use velcroless main toggles, I've had the rig since 2000 and just got it back from Mirage for the closing loop mod, had it washed and reassembled by them and put less than 20 jumps since. My rigger swears he never saw the wear on my risers before. ( i believe him)
I am reluctant to have it fixed with out knowing the cause. The repair in no fun once let alone twice.



+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

[mjosparky 3]

I believe if it is test with an RSL, the RSL becomes part of the TSO.

AS8015-B

4.3.6.2 Breakaway Drop Tests:

Eight drops shall be made by a person weighing not more than the maximum operating weight by breaking away from an open and normally functioning main parachute canopy with a vertical velocity of less than 20 FPS (6.1 m/s) at the time of breakaway and actuating the reserve pack within 2 s of the breakaway. If a reserve static line is part of the assembly, no less than 4 of the breakaway drops shall be made with the reserve static line actuating the reserve pack. The parachute canopy must be functionally open within the time +2 s, or altitude, obtained in 4.3.6 from the time of breakaway.

My idea of a fair fight is clubbing baby seals

[masterrig 1]

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I believe if it is test with an RSL, the RSL becomes part of the TSO.

AS8015-B

4.3.6.2 Breakaway Drop Tests:

Eight drops shall be made by a person weighing not more than the maximum operating weight by breaking away from an open and normally functioning main parachute canopy with a vertical velocity of less than 20 FPS (6.1 m/s) at the time of breakaway and actuating the reserve pack within 2 s of the breakaway. If a reserve static line is part of the assembly, no less than 4 of the breakaway drops shall be made with the reserve static line actuating the reserve pack. The parachute canopy must be functionally open within the time +2 s, or altitude, obtained in 4.3.6 from the time of breakaway.

___________________________________

Thank you, for that quote, Sparky! That just about sums it up.


Chuck

[mjosparky 3]

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Thank you, for that quote, Sparky! That just about sums it up.

You know the FAA, well maybe, well I don't know, we will look into it.crazy]

My idea of a fair fight is clubbing baby seals

[masterrig 1]

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Thank you, for that quote, Sparky! That just about sums it up.

You know the FAA, well maybe, well I don't know, we will look into it.crazy]

______________________________

Now that you mention it, I have had experience with the FAA... and I won! With those folks, you can't do enough looking into.


Cghuck

[riggermick 6]

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This happens in several ways. I just inspected a rig last night. The velcro on the main toggles didn't cover all the hook velcro on the risers. This hook velcro was then in contact with the front/top of the front reserve riser when packed. This damage was fairly minor and I would have let it go. BTW my guess is the damage on your RESERVE risers is from you MAIN toggle velcro. The Reserve toggle velcro is on the back of the rear reserve riser and not usually in contact with anything except the bottom of the reserve container, or perhaps the harness at the shoulder if the risers are short and the harness not covered.

But.. other damage had been caused by the rsl velcro. The RSL doesn't have to be removed for damaged to occur. On many rigs the RSL is pulled from the velcro on the reserve riser a little when the main is opened. In other words there isn't enough slack in the snap end of the lanyard. This exposes some of the hook to the adjacent riser. On the rig last night the damage was major. Individual threads had been snaged and pulled from the weave. Fibers in these threads had been damaged. This was far beyond the usual "fuzzinees" damage seen from velcro. I deemed this harness unairworthy. (It had some other things wrong too but this would have been enough) This was some of the worst velcro damage I've ever seen.

In the early 90's Dan Wilcox, then with RWS, did some tensile testing studies of various common damage. Bad fuzzy velcro damaged decreased the tensile strength of a type 8 chest strap significantly; IIRC something like 10 or 20 %.

I have deemed several rigs with reserve riser damage unairworthy. Some of it has been bad velcro damage. The other damage I've seen several times is from the sharp edge of French links. The edge of the threads can be very sharp and easily cut some fibers in the riser when being installed.

Some h/c websites list costs from some common repairs. This is probably replacing one side of the harness. I you didn't realize the front (and sometimes the also the rear) reserve riser is the same piece of webbing as the lep strap. For reference Sunpath lists an entire new non ring harness as being $350.

That type of damage (RSL) can't happen on the Reflex due to the location of the RSL and it's velcro. That's one (of many) reasons I designed it like that. BTW the Reflex setup could be incorperated into almost any modern sport rig, unfortunatly it would have to be none at build time and would probably be considered a major change.

Mick.

[mjosparky 3]

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would probably be considered a major change.

I think that would depend on how it was written up and how good one is at “creative writing”.

My idea of a fair fight is clubbing baby seals

[riggermick 6]

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would probably be considered a major change.

I think that would depend on how it was written up and how good one is at “creative writing”.

Aditionally it would require an inspector who is NOT just a paper pusher, but who understands the change order process in the real world. We had a great guy @ Long Beach MIDO who understood the difference between what's written and what's prudent in the real world.

Mick.

[bodypilot90 0]

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We had a great guy @ Long Beach MIDO who understood the difference between what's written and what's prudent in the real world.

The world needs more people like him.

[bodypilot90 0]

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ome h/c websites list costs from some common repairs. This is probably replacing one side of the harness. I you didn't realize the front (and sometimes the also the rear) reserve riser is the same piece of webbing as the lep strap. For reference Sunpath lists an entire new non ring harness as being $350.

Mirage list replace harness at $225, seem like a lot of work for the money. Guess i just got to wait and see, that's the hard part

Only other thing i can remember doing different was i put a lighting in my container but i can't see anything touching the risers, everything hangs out in crw. It was freepacked with all the riser covers open.

[teason 0]

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yea he sent it to mirage today [Frown]

You have a good rigger. I saw one come into the shop last winter that some rigger had tried to fix with a lighter! The risers had a 20 degree bend in them from the heat!

I think the rigger was trying to provide the jumper with a "cheap fix".
With the reserve, a "cheap fix" is never a good idea!

I would rather be a superb meteor, every atom of me in magnificent glow, than a sleepy and permanent planet.

[JerryBaumchen 1,082]

Hi Sparky,

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I think that would depend on how it was written up and how good one is at “creative writing”.

IMO, the essence of the Minor Change.

Jerry

[mjosparky 3]

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Hi Sparky,

Quote

I think that would depend on how it was written up and how good one is at “creative writing”.

IMO, the essence of the Minor Change.

Jerry

My idea of a fair fight is clubbing baby seals

[bodypilot90 0]

ok here's some pics, all the damage is by the reserve toggle. We also noted that the riser had a kink in it around the toggle area. To me it looks like the riser folded when installed and the toggle velcro got one side of the front and the other side of the rear. What do you think?

[councilman24 36]

That's pretty significant damage. Damage on the edges of the webbing weakens the strength significantly more than similar damage in the middle of the webbing. That looks like more than just velcro damage, especially if it realy happened in one repack cycle.


But it probably couldn't be damage from the toggle velcro. It would be very hard to get damage on the edge next to the toggle. On the other riser yes. Then it also looks like it's on opposite edges of the two risers. Also, in the first photo it looks like the top riser (front) has damage in two places along the edge. Near the center of the photo and at the extreme left edge. So, I'm assuming its the rear and front risers of one side, and opposite edge on the two risers.

My best guess at this point is that the velcro on the free bag holding the line stow pouch closed wasn't covered and that rubbed against the two risers on each jump. But that still doesn't make sense for it to be on the edges like that. It would almost mean that one of the risers was twisted so that the two edges were together, and then the two edges were rubbing against the bag velcro. I can't think of much else.

That amount of damage is much more than the amount of velco damage that occurs on the surface in the middle of the webbing. But at the edge it's easier for the hook to snag the fibers as they bend over the selvage edge.

What rig and what size was it? I think it says above it's a Mirage. We don't have many of those around here so I'm not real familiar with them.

IMHO that definately requires repair. I'd guess, based on the tests I referenced above, that the webbing strength is decreased by maybe 30 or 40 %. A razor nick on the edge weakened webbing by something like 50 %, IIRC. Your damage is much worse than the damage which I just deemed to much to but back in the air.

Even if it's fixed you need to figure out what caused it. The immediate cause isn't obvious to me. When your rigger is reassembling the rig, or now if he still has it, he and as many people as you can get need to look at it until you figure out were it came from. I'm sure he'll do this but put the risers and the free bag in position and try to figure out what could have caused it.

I don't have a Mirage here but the only other things besides the free bag velcro I can think of might me a sharp edge on the barrel of a french link if it got folded back on itself, a hot knifed binding tape or webbing end that was left sharp, the backer plate for the closing loop if it wore through the covering velcro and was sharp, hmmm and similar things.

That is a lot of damage and normaly would take several YEARS to occur in most areas where damage is usually seen from velcro.

But you do need to figure it out before it's packed again, or it could happen again.

Best ideas I can come up with. Anyone else?

Added after rereading the thread..

Did Mirage do the washing and repack? And what closing loop modification was done? With that much handling it could have happen while being serviced and not caught when repacked. Or it could have happened between the after the last repack before it was sent to Mirage, or it could have happened since the pack jog at Mirage. But if you can't find any cause in the rig itself as suggested above then maybe it happened during the service.

I'm old for my age.
Terry Urban
D-8631
FAA DPRE

[bodypilot90 0]

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Did Mirage do the washing and repack?

yes

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And what closing loop modification was done?

sorry they relocated the cypres cutter per service bullentin.

the canopy that is always in it is a spectre 170 same one that was in it for 500 jumps, except 5 jumps that it had a lightning 176. had less than 20 jumps since repack other wise sitting in a dark closet all by itself.

I will get it fixed but really want to find out why.

[councilman24 36]

Do NOT have Mirage do the repack after the repair. You and your rigger need to sit down with the equipment and find out what is in a position to cause this damage inside the reserve container when packed. The main had nothing to do with this, if I understand it correctly. This damage is in an area within the container and not in contact with the main. (Again if I understand,) My best guesses are either the free bag velcro or the damaged occured during handling for the service at Mirage. Ask them pointedly what they believe caused the damage. If we assume it wasn't there before they got it and wasn't caused by their handling, then it must be a rigging error. Make sure they know they were the last to handle and repack the rig.

IF they repack it, when it comes due open it carefully and make sure it didn't happen again. If by some chance it does, it's the fault of the rigger at Mirage one way or another.

I've never seen damaged like that in that location. Anybody else? My idea about the free bag velcro is theoretical, I've never seen it happen.

I'm old for my age.
Terry Urban
D-8631
FAA DPRE

[bodypilot90 0]

Terry,

I am having my local rigger do the repack. I called mirage today and they seemed very helpful. When i asked about seeing reserve riser damage he stated that he has never seen any before except after a rig was washed. I guess if the reserve risers are not tighted up right they can cause damage. He asked if the container was ever washed. I said yes at the time you did the repack He then told me they used outside riggers for repacks. I am thinking the whole job may have been outsourced and the rigger that washed it may have missed the damage. (i would hope he wouldn't pack like that)

what do you think?