mostwanted 0 #1 July 9, 2006 i bought an old used Raven III (DOM 89) and want to jump it as my main (i know that it is an old, docile canopy...). it was jumped as a main in the past (250 jumps). now some (maybe silly) questions: do i have to pack it a special way? would it be dumb to jump it without prior inspection of a rigger? any tipps for the first jump with a "new" canopy? edited to add: wingload will be 0.7 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
MB38 0 #2 July 9, 2006 Quotedo i have to pack it a special way? I believe it should PRO-pack normally. That's just a guess, though... don't take my word. Quote would it be dumb to jump it without prior inspection of a rigger? I don't know enough to make a blanket statement, but I know I wouldn't jump a used canopy [particularly a 17-year-old canopy] without an inspection. That may just be me... Quote any tipps for the first jump with a "new" canopy? Practice lots and lots of flares. Do a high altitude hop & pop if possible, to give yourself as much time to learn it as possible before landing. If memory serves, the Raven III is an F-111 canopy... and with 17 years under its belt [though only 250 jumps], it probably won't have the flare you may be used to [if you were jumping modern student mains]. Of course, I could've just made all of this up. This is just a 4:00 AM post by a newbie.I really don't know what I'm talking about. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
NWFlyer 2 #3 July 9, 2006 Quote would it be dumb to jump it without prior inspection of a rigger? Yes."There is only one basic human right, the right to do as you damn well please. And with it comes the only basic human duty, the duty to take the consequences." -P.J. O'Rourke Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
dbattman 0 #4 July 9, 2006 You'll be fine jumping it as a main- plenty of others jump reserve canopies as a main. Pack it however you like (flat, pro, psycho)- you'll learn which way works for this particular canopy over time. Just be aware that the Ravens have a reputation for stalling on the deep flare during a reserve ride with the factory settings (mine did both times). Practive high, learn the stall point, and have a rigger adjust your steering lines accordingly. F-111s also have a steeper descent angle (not faster, just a lower glide ratio) so adjust your landing pattern accordingly and try not to setup over any trees. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
riggerrob 561 #5 July 9, 2006 Just be aware that the Ravens have a reputation for stalling on the deep flare during a reserve ride with the factory settings (mine did both times). >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Uh! Remember that most of those complaints came from fat boys loading Micro Ravens "near the upper edge of the envelope" (ROFLMAO). Since the original poster plans to load his a 0.7, he will be within the Raven's original design envelope and should fly fine. Stalls should be on the docile side and -as long as he is over soft ground - should be able to survive a classic accuracy approach, flown in 3/4 brakes and stalled onto the target. A wing-loading of 0.7 puts him in the same range as students, accuracy competitors and most BASE jumpers. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
mjosparky 3 #6 July 10, 2006 QuoteRavens have a reputation for stalling on the deep flare during a reserve ride with the factory settings (mine did both times). I suspect that you, like others that complain about the stall point, are over loading the canopy. The canopy was not designed to be loaded much over 1 to 1 or 1.1. to 1. QuoteF-111s also have a steeper descent angle (not faster, just a lower glide ratio) The material the canopy is made of has nothing to do with its “decent angle” or its “glide ratio”. Both are a product of canopy design and trim. You should avoid giving advice on things you lack knowledge of.My idea of a fair fight is clubbing baby seals Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
dbattman 0 #7 July 10, 2006 QuoteQuoteRavens have a reputation for stalling on the deep flare during a reserve ride with the factory settings (mine did both times). I suspect that you, like others that complain about the stall point, are over loading the canopy. The canopy was not designed to be loaded much over 1 to 1 or 1.1. to 1. QuoteF-111s also have a steeper descent angle (not faster, just a lower glide ratio) The material the canopy is made of has nothing to do with its “decent angle” or its “glide ratio”. Both are a product of canopy design and trim. You should avoid giving advice on things you lack knowledge of. Does the porous nature of F-111 fabric have no impact on the sink rate of the canopy due to the air bleeding out of the chambers? Edit for phrasing and to add: Meant to bring out the learning for the original poster. That's why this forum is here. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
BIGUN 1,082 #8 July 10, 2006 Mike, I'd be interested on your thoughts of psycho-packing the Raven. My first istinct is to recommend a clean flat or PRO pack, but to forego the psycho.Nobody has time to listen; because they're desperately chasing the need of being heard. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
riggerrob 561 #9 July 10, 2006 There is not much difference between a PRO pack and a psycho pack. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
ZigZagMarquis 8 #10 July 10, 2006 mostwanted... read what RiggerRob and MJO said up-post, they pretty much beat me to the 2 cents I was going to add... I'll pile on with the comment that the older Raven's really DO NOT like to be overloaded, but if you're only 0.7:1, you should be good to go... my only additional comment was that personally I always prefered to flat-pack big-F111, but ProPacking it shouldn't be a problem either because that's pretty much what we do when packing a reserve, although what you do with the tail and nose is different with a reserve pack then with a main ProPack. Anyway, I'm guessing you're doing this as practice for BASE??? So you'd probably rather ProPack it. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
phoenixlpr 0 #11 July 10, 2006 Quoteadditional comment was that personally I always prefered to flat-pack big-F111, but ProPacking it shouldn't be a problem either because that's pretty much what we do when packing a reserve, although what you do with the tail and nose is different with a reserve pack then with a main ProPack. Size does not matter. Even tandems are pro-packed regular bases. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
ZigZagMarquis 8 #12 July 10, 2006 QuoteQuoteadditional comment was that personally I always prefered to flat-pack big-F111, but ProPacking it shouldn't be a problem either because that's pretty much what we do when packing a reserve, although what you do with the tail and nose is different with a reserve pack then with a main ProPack. Size does not matter. Even tandems are pro-packed regular bases. I understand that. I'm just saying that I personally prefered to flat-pack big F111 when packing it up as a main, but it doesn't really matter because most reserves, even big ones, are Propacked when put up as such. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
mjosparky 3 #13 July 10, 2006 QuoteDoes the porous nature of F-111 fabric have no impact on the sink rate of the canopy due to the air bleeding out of the chambers? As an F-111 canopy gets older it will lose some ability to flare which is what most people are concerned with when jumping them. The design characteristics of the canopy do not change. While the descent rate may increase the “angle” of descent will remain constant. A great deal of the glide ratio you speak of is a result of a greater aspect ration common in 9 cell canopies. A little bit like the difference between a Cessna wing and a glider wing QuoteMeant to bring out the learning for the original poster. That's why this forum is here. Hopfully he will learn the right things.My idea of a fair fight is clubbing baby seals Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
mjosparky 3 #14 July 10, 2006 QuoteMike, I'd be interested on your thoughts of psycho-packing the Raven. My first istinct is to recommend a clean flat or PRO pack, but to forego the psycho. I would agree with you. If it were mine I would flat pack it. I used to jump a Sharpchuter, a large F-111 canopy, and always flat packed it. Never had a problem and it was much easier than Pro packing it.My idea of a fair fight is clubbing baby seals Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
kenneth21441 0 #15 July 10, 2006 With all the other advice I would say that when all is said and done that you should pull alittle bit higher then you normally do so you can get to know the canopy. IE Stall points, turns, etc...... Of course a good inspection is needed before hand.Kenneth Potter FAA Senior Parachute Rigger Tactical Delivery Instructor (Jeddah, KSA) FFL Gunsmith Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
dbattman 0 #16 July 10, 2006 Try these as well and stay out of the trees. http://www.skydivewestpoint.com/PDchoosingacanopy1.pdf http://www.skydivewestpoint.com/PDchoosingacanopy2.pdf Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
billvon 2,442 #17 July 10, 2006 >While the descent rate may increase the “angle” of descent will remain constant. Not really. The increased porosity means a lower L/D, and thus a steeper glide. We noticed this on our tandem mains years ago - I tended to overshoot when we got new (but still the same F111) mains, because the older ones were getting so steep. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
riggermick 6 #18 July 12, 2006 Quote>While the descent rate may increase the “angle” of descent will remain constant. Not really. The increased porosity means a lower L/D, and thus a steeper glide. We noticed this on our tandem mains years ago - I tended to overshoot when we got new (but still the same F111) mains, because the older ones were getting so steep. Bill, I think you are splitting flares!! Boom Boom! Thank you. I'll be here till thursday, and remember please tip your waiter(s). Good night! Mick. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
mjosparky 3 #19 July 12, 2006 Quote>While the descent rate may increase the “angle” of descent will remain constant. Not really. The increased porosity means a lower L/D, and thus a steeper glide. We noticed this on our tandem mains years ago - I tended to overshoot when we got new (but still the same F111) mains, because the older ones were getting so steep. In over 2000 jumps on F-111 canopies I have not found this to be true.My idea of a fair fight is clubbing baby seals Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
