What do you do when someone "pencil packs" their reserve with your name and seal?

[Genego 2]

This came up many years ago, when the PIA held riggers conferences at the Nationals at Muskogee OK during the nationals.

The most popular answer then was make them pay for every repack they had addded to their card. Was wondering if attitudes had changed in the past 20ish years?

I live with fear and terror, but sometimes I leave her and go skydiving.

[justinb138 0]

If it was a rig I had actually packed that had just gone out of date, etc..:

I'd be pissed, and I wouldn't pack for them again.

If it was a rig someone else packed and they forged my signature/seal:

A royal ass-kicking would be in order.

[darkwing 4]

I don't care what they do, as long as they don't make it my problem by putting my name on it. If they put my name on it, I will be seriously irritated.

-- Jeff
My Skydiving History

[kenneth21441 0]

The problem that I have is if someone uses my name it means exactly when was this parachute last inspected and repacked. In that this could take it past the 120 day inspection and if and when this person is caught my work will be further looked at. I dont want and need the stress from this. When I know that its done the right way the first time.

If possible and if it could be proven I'd like to see some real action taken against that person....... Remember the law.

For myself I keep my seal press under lock and key next to my firearms. That is how important I treat this.

In effect for now I would not pack for them and even would let alot of others know. Since I know who's and when I packed there rig for them.....

Just my two cents in this subject.

thanks,

Kenneth Potter
FAA Senior Parachute Rigger
Tactical Delivery Instructor (Jeddah, KSA)
FFL Gunsmith

[sunshine 2]

Quote

The most popular answer then was make them pay for every repack they had addded to their card.

I do not like that answer. I will not accept money for a repack i did not do. Even if my name and seal was forged, i didn't do the repack, i don't want the money. I will simply refuse to pack for that person ever again, i will tell everyone what the person did.

___________________________________________
meow

I get a Mike hug! I get a Mike hug!

[FrogNog 1]

OK, crazy thought. Isn't one side of the lead seal blank*? Could an enterprising rigger with a small stamp set fit a date code on there to prove that a lead seal was "expired"?

Ooh, I should make a variable-date die and sell it.
Note that this wouldn't prevent a rigger from pencil-packing his own stuff. (Not that this ever happens, and not that anyone ever thinks this is OK. ) The rigger could always remove his lead seal and apply a new one with a new date code.

(* I'd go look right now but one rig is on loan to a friend and the other two are empty for repairs / modification.)

-=-=-=-=-
Pull.

[Kimblair13 0]

Quote

Isn't one side of the lead seal blank*

It can be.
Most have the seal symbol on one side and their initials on the other. My name only being 3 letters, I have my seal symbol and name.

[mjosparky 3]

Refuse to pack the rig and write "Void" through each line that my name was forged.

My idea of a fair fight is clubbing baby seals

[johnny1488 1]

I scrape in the date with my temp pin.

Johnny
--"This ain't no book club, we're all gonna die!"
Mike Rome

[Kimblair13 0]

Quote

I scrape in the date with my temp pin.

That's a good idea!

[PeteS 0]

How about write FORGERY on every line, I've done that before. A-holes'.......I had one customer write my name on a pilot rig TWICE before I had ever seen it, he got the ass-chewing of his career.

[highspeeddirt 0]

you all left out what i feel is the most appropriate response,which should be to take the person responsible outside and point out the error of their ways with a shovel or something.

[fcajump 153]

I like several of the ideas suggested and think my reply would be (not having faced this... yet...)

* Indicate "forged" on each line as applicable
* Remove the current seal and unpack the system
* Inform the local DZ that this jumper seems to have a problem with honesty (liability for the pilot if no one else)
* Pass the word with local riggers that this jumper is a bad seed.
* Return the unpacked system to the owner with my recommendation that he find someone else to service his gear.

Preferably in that order.

Jim

Always remember that some clouds are harder than others...

[johnny1488 1]

What is the liability to the pilot if the rig is "in date" and sealed by an approved rigger?

Johnny
--"This ain't no book club, we're all gonna die!"
Mike Rome

[koppel 3]

Remove seal o
Open rig
Completely Dis-assemble rig - remove links from risers, lines from links, P/C from bridle etc
Return rig to person advising them that I will be advising all local riggers of said 'Identity Theft/Fraud'
Advise person that they should find someone competent to re-assemble rig as attempting to re-assemble and pack rig themselves would very likely be catastrophic.

~ have a nice Day

this coud be seen as over the top but then again so is Identity Theft and Fraud

I like my canopy...


...it lets me down.

[deadwood 0]

"For myself I keep my seal press under lock and key next to my firearms. That is how important I treat this."

So what's to stop someone from ordering a seal press and die with your seal symbol on it from Para-Gear?

He who hesitates shall inherit the earth.

Deadwood
Skydive New Mexico Motorcycle Club, Touring Division

[mjosparky 3]

Quote

What is the liability to the pilot if the rig is "in date" and sealed by an approved rigger?

You are a rigger, you should be able to figure it out.

My idea of a fair fight is clubbing baby seals

[fcajump 153]

Quote

What is the liability to the pilot if the rig is "in date" and sealed by an approved rigger?

The issue with liability comes in two flavors:
- my reputation with other jumpers, my seal is my word that the rig was recently inspected and approved. The harness is not overly worn, the loops are not freyed, the container is not stained and torn. Substandard external qualities, seen to not change over more time than one repack, reflects on the rigger as well as the owner. (though what an owner allows to happen to his rig is still his own responsibility and issues found even the day after an inspection should be immediatly delt with)
- my reputation and legal liability at large if that owner has any issues with the rig while "repacked" under my forged signature. Service bullitins uncompleted, annual strength tests nor performed (i.e. PD), rubberbands that have deteriorated, AAD batteries or systems that are out of date and any other issue that might arrise due to the length of time being in the rig.

It could be argued that I would simply show my own logs that state that I had not packed the rig, but then I have already been brought into the issue (legally and publically). A friend of mine spent over $10k on legal fees for an issue in which the judge immediately dismissed him as it was clear he was not responsible, but then kept him on the stand for a long time as a witness.

Finally its a matter of trust. You trust me to do quality work today that will save your ass at some random time during the next repack cycle. I trust you to do everything to protect the work I put into the inspection and repack. To report to me ANYTHING that you see that changes the reliability of the rig. By changing anything on that repack data card, you have broken that trust (and arguably broken the law).

Its not simply about the gear; its about your life, my sanity and reputation, and about our mutual trust.

(Its also not about the money... I figured out once that after all my time spent researching, learning, consulting, teaching, inspecting and packing, my hourly rate for rigging is about $5/hr. Recently it hasn't even kept up with my lift fees.)

Jim

Always remember that some clouds are harder than others...

[marinho 0]

My 2 cents,
Educate him/her telling all the liabilities involved on this case and the law! Remind him that if something goes wrong, his family will come to your ass to get some money, your reputation and your license!
And finally, if he does that again, you'll contact the FAA and federal authorities.
Forging your name is a federal crime and it's very easy to proof that.
My personal opinion is that sometimes people don't think what they're doing. Always give a chance because you also deserve one.
Second time, you live the consequences...
Cheers,

Gus Marinho

[tombuch 0]

Quote

What is the liability to the pilot if the rig is "in date" and sealed by an approved rigger?

What-if questions are always hard to answer because the response from the FAA is so variable. In most cases the FAA won't even know about the problem, but if there is an accident the pencil packed reserve could become an issue for the pilot.

Years ago a pilot flying a big airplane was violated by the FAA when a jumper had an out of date reserve. The pilot argued that he can't get up from the flight deck and visually check every jumper on every load. The FAA argued that the pilot is responsible, and that he could delegate the inspection to drop zone management. The violation stuck. That tells us that the FAA takes the responsibility to inspect rigs very seriously and expects more than just the say-so of the jumper---an actual inspection of some sort is needed, and in this case that responsibility for inspection was placed on the pilot.

Since that ruling the FAR's have been changed to add joint responsibility to the drop zone owners, operators, riggers, instructors, and anybody else involved in the jump (see: http://theblueskyranch.com/sta/tb13.htm.

I've checked many rigs in my time, and in most cases a pencil packed reserve can not be detected by looking at the card. In some cases, however, the name/seal number are obviously mismatched, the dates on the card don't make sense, or the signature is clearly different than other signatures on the card.

I think that the FAA would require the drop zone to make a reasonable effort to ensure the rig is in date. If the card looks legit, it probably wouldn't trigger an enforcement action. If the card looks like a fake and a reasonable person could be expected to identify the problem, then I think the drop zone (and pilot) might be at risk of a violation.

A casual review by the FAA might simply expect the drop zone to simply look at the card. A more complete review might look at how the card is processed, and what systems are used to ensure a rig is in date. I'll take the answer a bit further here...My drop zone keeps a computer record for each jumper. There is a place for the reserve repack date, so if the computer shows a rig is out of date, the jumper isn't allowed to manifest. The system has no way of determining if a jumper has more than one rig, so it becomes easy for a jumper to have one rig for manifest check-in, and additional rigs that he jumps but doesn't keep in date. If a jumper is caught with an out of date reserve in this case, the pilot (and drop zone) might be violated because the process is so sloppy that a reasonable person could evade it.

I think a drop zone with a good inspection system is probably pretty safe from FAA action, but those that take the responsibility casually might be at risk (although the risk of a violation is still very low).

The above looks at the full enforcement process, and the probable outcomes. It's also worth considering that anything that triggers an investigation or enforcement action creates trouble for the pilot and drop zone. Even if the FAA eventually decides not to violate the pilot, the suspicion and hassle are still pretty tough to deal with.

So, don't pencil pack, and if you do, make it look absolutely real.
.

Tom Buchanan
Instructor Emeritus
Comm Pilot MSEL,G
Author: JUMP! Skydiving Made Fun and Easy

[darnknit 0]

Quote

So, don't pencil pack, and if you do, make it look absolutely real.

sometimes even that wont work, i was doing gear checks at a boogie once when i came across a rig that had been packed in th u.s. by a friend of mine one week earlier. oddly enough, i was skydiving with my friend the same day as the reserve repack, in Switzerland. that is the only way i could tell it was a forgery, but i could still tell.

pulling is cool. keep it in the skin

[masterrig 1]

I caught a jumper who 'penciled' my name. He screwed-up and 'wrote' my number... I use a rubber stamp for my symbol and number. I simply removed my seal. He wasn't allowed to jump because, the rig had no seal.


Chuck

[cornishe 0]

probably punch in the mouf.

i have a spatula custom engraved for the back side of the seal. very hard to forge. they will forge your's before mine.

-am
Dr. Splatula's Parachute Rigging

Abbie Mashaal
Skydive Idaho
Snake River Skydiving
TandemBASE

[NoShitThereIWas 0]

Oooooh. I would be pretty pissed. The first thing I would do would be to walk up to them and pull their reserve handle. (Always wanted to do that and that would be THE PERFECT TIME).

Then I would make every rigger at the DZ aware of what happened so they know to watch their backs. Then I would kindly refuse to ever pack for them again.

Roy Bacon: "Elvises, light your fires."

Sting: "Be yourself no matter what they say."

[kenneth21441 0]

So what's to stop someone from ordering a seal press and die with your seal symbol on it from Para-Gear?
I guess nothing can stop that other then I had did my part by keeping my seal out of the picture. And if that low life wants to spend the cash to buy a seal with my letters then maybe he should just go out and get his riggers ticket and do the work himself. But what do I know???

I have found that riggers/ skydivers tend to take care of our own and if we can get justice it can be done within our own community. A word of mouth goes along way in this business.

Just my two cents on how I feel on this issue...

Kenneth Potter
FAA Senior Parachute Rigger
Tactical Delivery Instructor (Jeddah, KSA)
FFL Gunsmith