Reserve size vs. Container size

[henryvillar 0]

I'm looking into buying a Mirage G4 with a PD170 main and a PD176 reserve. I contacted Mirage and was told that most people that jump a 170 main use a 160 reserve, which would fit into a smaller container. A 170 main with 176 reserve would need an M5 size container whereas downsizing to a 160 reserve would allow me to use an M4.
With an exit weight of 210lbs and relatively little experience, is a 160 reserve ok for me? I'm currently jumping with a wing loading of 1.11:1
(Please see other post regarding true canopy size as well)

Any help is appreciated.

The opinions expressed herein are not necessarily those of my employer, not necessarily mine, and probably not necessary.

[PhreeZone 15]

The 160 is too smal for someone of your body size. In reality the 176 is probally also too small. With an exit weight of 210 for a first rig you should be looking at a 193R.

Yesterday is history
And tomorrow is a mystery

Parachutemanuals.com

[henryvillar 0]

The 176 reserve was recommended to me by my instructor. Considering I have pretty consistent landings with my 190 main and still have time to practice while the custom chute is made, I think i should be fine with a 176.
I guess downsizing to a 160 would be too risky then?
Unfortuneately it appears that the combination of a 170 main with a 176 reserve doesn't work to well with the container. Any ideas?

The opinions expressed herein are not necessarily those of my employer, not necessarily mine, and probably not necessary.

[Nightingale 0]

A bigger main?

[henryvillar 0]

Obviously an option, but hopefully not the only one. Any other ideas? Anybody been in the same situation?

The opinions expressed herein are not necessarily those of my employer, not necessarily mine, and probably not necessary.

[Reginald 0]

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Obviously an option, but hopefully not the only one. Any other ideas? Anybody been in the same situation?

Yes plenty of people. Many went with too small of a main or reserve for their first rig and these people disproportionately end up in the incidents section. Particularly someone with 50 jumps who lists “swooping” as a discipline of choice is at risk for a negative outcome. A 190 is a pretty good reserve for your experience level, a 176 is not totally unreasonable and you think going to a 160 might be an option?

Please do not buy either a main or a reserve that happens to fit in a container you like. Buy a rig that fits an appropriate size reserve for you and also a main that is appropriate. Do not buy canopies that fit into a rig you like!

"We've been looking for the enemy for some time now. We've finally found him. We're surrounded. That simplifies things." CP

[skybytch 259]

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Obviously an option, but hopefully not the only one.

That'd be the best option.

You said the main is a PD170. The PD170 is an all F111 canopy. At 210 pounds exit weight you're loading it at over 1.2. Besides the fact that it is not a good idea to load all F111 mains over 1.0, your wingloading on a 170 is pretty aggressive for someone with 50 jumps.

You'd be better off buying an all zp 190 with a comparable sized reserve. Of course, that's not going to get you a smaller container... but in a worst case scenario it might save you some doctor bills.

[kelpdiver 2]

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Obviously an option, but hopefully not the only one. Any other ideas?

Different container? A few of them, starting with Wings, don't force you to have a smaller reserve than your main (the main that your container was sized for). The others might follow their example if skydivers started making them pay for it.

[bob.dino 0]

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You said the main is a PD170. The PD170 is an all F111 canopy. At 210 pounds exit weight you're loading it at over 1.2. Besides the fact that it is not a good idea to load all F111 mains over 1.0...

Yup. My teammate put on lots of lead and started loading her PD170 about 1.1 and the landings started to really suck. In my limited experience with F111 mains, loading them above 1.0 is a good recipe for crap landings.

I'm sure those with more experience on such canopies will chime in.

[klafollette 0]

My current Vector has a bigger reserve (176) than main (170)

I weigh 215lb, and waited until I had 500 jumps before I downsized from a 210 Safire main/193 reserve, to a 190 main of same type (Safire) for about 50 jumps.

Then got my new rig last season with a 170 main (Samurai) and a 176 PD Reserve. The rig is a Vector M3 (V350 size), and it fits those canopies perfectly.

At jump 650 I had my first cutaway, and am so glad I had the bigger reserve, not to mention the Vector Skyhook. The time you have a reserve ride, is not the time to learn to fly a smaller canopy.

If you insist on going down that path, I would call PD and ask to demo a 176 reserve and jump it as your main. Now imagine a smaller reserve under the worst possible conditions, opening low and landing out in the worst possible spot.

Don't rush it!!!!

[fueler 0]

i have one ride on my PD176r and at W/L of 1.4 it flew and landed GRRROOOOOVY. i was surprised at how nice the thing landed with almost no wind. get a demo, nothing like knowing how something is going to fly before you have to fly it.

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what!?

[mjosparky 3]

Do you really think someone with 50 jumps should even consider a 176 sq. ft., F-111, 7 cell reserve?

My idea of a fair fight is clubbing baby seals

[mjosparky 3]

Henry,

From your responses, I am pretty sure you are going to go with smaller canopies for the “cool” factor.

But remember what some of the people posted on this thread. They have nothing to gain, no ax to grind were offering their honest opinion. They came to their opinion from watching other new jumpers go small, try to go big and then go to the hospital or the morgue.

So you keep trying to convince yourself that a main and reserve around 170 sq. ft. is just what you should have. While you may believe it there are those that know better.

All of the rules and most of the guidelines in skydiving are written in blood.

My idea of a fair fight is clubbing baby seals

[fueler 0]

Quote

Do you really think someone with 50 jumps should even consider a 176 sq. ft., F-111, 7 cell reserve?

my response was aimed mostly at the comment by bob. dino about f-111 canopies being crap loaded higher than 1:1. in my expearience that is not true. then again, i dont know shit from shInola. he should probably get a PD113r to get down faster to buy beer for his first cutaway

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what!?

[councilman24 36]

Listen to the advice above.

Here's the order of decisions. Choose the appropriate reserve size of the preferred brand or of more than one brand if shopping around. This can be defined on size and experience. DO NOT pick a reserve based on the certified limit (legal limit). Pick one on based on the performance based maximum weight recommendations based on experience.

Then choose an appropriate size main of the desired brand and model. Again, this may vary with type. A 170 sq ft f111 type main is NOT appropriate for your size. The performance of these canopies degrade with time. When this was the only kind of canopy we almost never loaded them more than 1:1. People get away with reserves smaller because they are essentially only used when like new. A 170 reserve with 200 jumps would be equally as undersized as a 170 f111 type main.

THEN figure out what size containers in a particular brand you need. Purchase accordingly.

Choosing a size of container, trying to cram the largest reserve available in it, and trying to get away with an under sized main to also fit is what gets you into the broken bone club.

I'm old for my age.
Terry Urban
D-8631
FAA DPRE

[bob.dino 0]

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...my response was aimed mostly at the comment by bob. dino about f-111 canopies being crap loaded higher than 1:1...

I was speaking specifically about F-111 mains, and in particular the PD series of canopies, not about reserves such as the PD-R.

[Guest 1010]

Performance Designs demo page

You can have it good, fast, or cheap: pick two.

[riggerrob 563]

You are using defective logic.

Starting by choosing an M4-sized container because it will make your butt look good is the first step on a the trip to the orthopedic surgeon. Judging by your profile, you would be far wiser starting with a 190 or 210 reserve, then chosing container size.

In the longer run, no one will remember how fashionable you looked walking to the airplane. They will only remember how the ambulance delayed jumping when it carted you off after a bad landing under too tiny a reserve.

[mnealtx 0]

Quote

You are using defective logic.

Starting by choosing an M4-sized container because it will make your butt look good is the first step on a the trip to the orthopedic surgeon. Judging by your profile, you would be far wiser starting with a 190 or 210 reserve, then chosing container size.

In the longer run, no one will remember how fashionable you looked walking to the airplane. They will only remember how the ambulance delayed jumping when it carted you off after a bad landing under too tiny a reserve.

+++ Quoted for great justice.

Mike
I love you, Shannon and Jim.
POPS 9708 , SCR 14706

[henryvillar 0]

Quote

You are using defective logic.

Starting by choosing an M4-sized container because it will make your butt look good is the first step on a the trip to the orthopedic surgeon. Judging by your profile, you would be far wiser starting with a 190 or 210 reserve, then chosing container size.

In the longer run, no one will remember how fashionable you looked walking to the airplane. They will only remember how the ambulance delayed jumping when it carted you off after a bad landing under too tiny a reserve.

Thanks for the opinion of all of you. This is the first time I use an internet based forum of any kind and I have been pleasantly surprised by the response I've received, including several PMs.
In response to RiggerRob, at no point was I looking at getting the M4 for its looks. I just didn't want to buy a container which wouldn't allow me to downsize my main later on. I'm not suicidal and enjoy being alive a lot!
In response to Reginald, I will remove 'swooping' from my profile immediately, as it is something I want to start along with wingsuits in the future.

Today I spoke with Performance Designs, Mirage, and my instructor. Hopefully the results will give most of you peace of mind. I have decided to buy the Mirage G4, size M5, with a Sabre2 190 main and a PD176 reserve. My instructor is confident that the reserve size is fine for me, considering my current performance and the fact I'm taking a canopy control course. The main will keep me relatively safe and entertained for a while, and I'll be able to downsize in the future without having to buy a new h/c.
What I'm flying now is a PD190 (F-111) which is giving me consistently nice openings and landings even without wind (rarely much wind at my DZ), so the Sabre2 190 should make things just a little more interesting.
Obviously any further recommendations are always welcome.

Blue Skies,

Henry

The opinions expressed herein are not necessarily those of my employer, not necessarily mine, and probably not necessary.