riddler 0 #1 January 3, 2006 Suppose that you are jumping in a land far, far away from your normal rigger that you trust. You have a cutaway, and you use a rigger you don't know to repack it for you. 1. The old reserve packing card is completely full, so the rigger makes a new one for you. But they neglect to sew the old card to it. 2. They try to charge you an extra $10 for the CW03-01 (Capewell bent pin) mandatory service bulletin. Problem is that you know for a fact that the old SB has been done. You watched your rigger do it. It's written on the card. The rigger states emphatically that the SB is not on the card. So you show them. Then they state that the handle isn't stamped. So you take a look and see, clear as day in large black letters, right there on the handle CW03-01, written with a black felt-tip pen. You already know it's there, because you watched your rigger write it on the soft handle. You get your $10 back. 3. They charge you $10 to straighten out the lines on your main. When they hand it back to you, they tell you your steering lines are radically twisted, but they didn't bother to untwist them. I understand that mistakes get made. Am I wrong to think this rigger makes too many? Should I trust the repack to save my life?Trapped on the surface of a sphere. XKCD Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
skybytch 259 #2 January 3, 2006 QuoteThe old reserve packing card is completely full, so the rigger makes a new one for you. But they neglect to sew the old card to it. I've never seen or heard of anyone sewing two data cards together. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
mark 104 #3 January 3, 2006 QuoteI've never seen or heard of anyone sewing two data cards together. Must be a new fashion. i saw my first example two weeks ago: upper edge of the new card sewn to the upper edge of the old, like crude book binding. I can't imagine trying this with paper data cards. Well, actually I can imagine it, so I wouldn't do it. There are no FAA requirements for retaining previous packing cards. Even the current card needs only the information for the current pack job, so it would be legal (but thoroughly unprofessional) to throw away the old card and make a new one for every repack. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
masterrigger1 2 #4 January 3, 2006 Quote I've never seen or heard of anyone sewing two data cards together. It is supposed to be done! Younger riggers nowadays MELSkyworks Parachute Service, LLC www.Skyworksparachuteservice.com Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
masterrigger1 2 #5 January 3, 2006 Quote There are no FAA requirements for retaining previous packing cards. Even the current card needs only the information for the current pack job, so it would be legal (but thoroughly unprofessional) to throw away the old card and make a new one for every repack. Mark, Actually it is; it's spelled out somewhere regarding canopy history. It is also one of the suggested tasks in the Practical test for riggers. MELSkyworks Parachute Service, LLC www.Skyworksparachuteservice.com Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
skybytch 259 #6 January 3, 2006 QuoteIt is supposed to be done! Younger riggers nowadays Don't want to hijack riddler's thread too bad but... It wasn't taught to me back in 1991-1992 when I was a riglet. When I sold gear - including quite a bit of used equipment - for Square One (1996-2003), not once did I see two data cards sewn together. Stapled and/or taped together, yes. Sewn, no. And I did see used gear and data cards from all over the US. I'm not saying I'm right - I am often wrong. I'm just stating what I was/was not taught and what I've seen. And thanks, btw. It's good to know that some people still consider me young. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
mark 104 #7 January 3, 2006 QuoteSuppose that you are jumping in a land far, far away from your normal rigger that you trust. You have a cutaway, and you use a rigger you don't know to repack it for you. Many dropzones have a staff rigger or concessionaire who maintains their equipment. Para-Gone (Sally Hathaway at Z-Hills) and Para-Concepts (Kirk Smith at Skydive Chicago) come to mind. The shops are well supervised and the staff knowledgeable. If I had an equipment problem at one of those dropzones, I'd go there. If there isn't an obvious staff rigger, then you're best bet is to check with local jumpers and manifest. For example, at Deland there isn't an obvious rigging shop, so I'd see what TSO-D recommended. Most dropzones also have "basement" riggers, whose knowledge and abilities vary widely. What they have to recommend themselves is mostly convenience. How did you go about choosing the rigger who did your work? And what did the recommenders say when they learned of your experience? Quote1. The old reserve packing card is completely full, so the rigger makes a new one for you. But they neglect to sew the old card to it. Not required. I'm not sure it's even a good idea, since the stitch line is likely to postage-stamp tear. Quote2. They try to charge you an extra $10 for the CW03-01 (Capewell bent pin) mandatory service bulletin. Problem is that you know for a fact that the old SB has been done... You get your $10 back. You have a point. That would make me mad, too. Quote3. They charge you $10 to straighten out the lines on your main. When they hand it back to you, they tell you your steering lines are radically twisted, but they didn't bother to untwist them. My shop rate is $50/hour. How much time would you like to buy? I encourage my customers to do as much as they can for themselves. If they choose to have me do something anyway, they should expect to pay. Straightening your lines after a cutaway is one task, untwisting your brake lines is a separate task. The first is one it's nice to have an experienced untangler do, and your $10 buys a lot of non-aggrevation. The second is something you can do yourself, so why not? I'm guessing that you wouldn't have been so ticked off about the twisties if they hadn't ticked you off already about the ripcord pin SB. Mark Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
mark 104 #8 January 3, 2006 QuoteIt is also one of the suggested tasks in the Practical test for riggers. I didn't see it in my 2003 copy of the PTS. In the DPRE guide perhaps? I learned a new word from the PTS: "Recordation." Mark Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
mark 104 #9 January 3, 2006 QuoteActually it is [an FAR]; it's spelled out somewhere regarding canopy history. FAR 65.131? Or a different place? Mark Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
tso-d_chris 0 #10 January 3, 2006 QuoteIf there isn't an obvious staff rigger, then you're best bet is to check with local jumpers and manifest. At Deland there isn't an obvious rigging shop, so I'd see what TSO-D recommended. If anyone is looking for a rigger in Deland, please PM me. For Great Deals on Gear Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
billvon 2,454 #11 January 3, 2006 You are asking two different questions here. 1) Did this rigger rip you off? 2) Is he a competent rigger? The two are not the same questions. Some good riggers are assholes; some poor riggers are very nice and quite customer-oriented. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
riddler 0 #12 January 3, 2006 Quote1) Did this rigger rip you off? 2) Is he a competent rigger? What I am intending to ask is the second question - is he a competant rigger? The part about getting ripped off is just a minor emotional outburst - please ignore Trapped on the surface of a sphere. XKCD Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Samurai136 0 #13 January 3, 2006 What mistakes did this rigger make that would cause you to conclude they did not follow the manufacturer's instructions for packing your reserve and closing the container? 1. I cannot find the FAR that says they must be sewn together. Apparently there are at least two master riggers who have different opinions on this issue. 2. Rigger may have missed the documentation that CW03-01 service bulletin was performed on your equipment. But it does suggest they are aware of the FARs, service bulletins, and are performing those checks. Can you prove the rigger did not perform the CW03-01 test even though it was unnecessary? 3. The $10 fee is for a continuity check/ de-tangle/ re-assembly (assuming a cutaway). I wouldn't consider twisted brakelines to be a continuity error. Twisted brake lines on a main are a line trim issue, separate fee. Did you request a line trim check on your main? I'm suprised the rigger didn't try and sell/ build you new brake lines if they are that twisted. Consider the facts. You used your reserve and landed it.If you really don't trust that your reserve container will open and the reserve extracted, pay to have it re-packed for your peace of mind. You can spend another 120 days 'wondering' or pay for an unnecessary re-pack now; Either way I suspect you will be unhappy."Buttons aren't toys." - Trillian Ken Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
councilman24 36 #14 January 3, 2006 None of the questions you asked goes to competence or quality of the pack job. Sewing cards together is a choice IMHO. It has become accepted practice by some. The old cards should stay, but I still use paper cards in many rigs (pilots don't deserve tyvek) and those pretty much can't be sewn together and survive. Be glad they didn't charge you for the new card. Many riggers do and that's appropriate. Trying to redo the pin SB? Doesn't show incompetence. If it was originally done by the field method not requiring opening the reserve I'd redo it too, with the block method. But, I choose not to charge people. Others do and that's appropriate too. As stated above at least they knew enough to do it. See above response for untwisting steering lines. This is something YOU should be doing every few jumps. I wouldn't do it either so that the jumper was educated about the neccesity. This was actually an added service. He notified you of an issue that would normally be part of a main inspection, but didn't charge you for a main inspection. Untangling a cutaway main can take 5 minutes or 50 minutes, depending how good you are. And the fewer people helping the faster. Lighten up. Most of rigging is opinion and individual style. NOBODY does it exactly the same way. See Bill's comment above.I'm old for my age. Terry Urban D-8631 FAA DPRE Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
CrazyL 0 #15 January 3, 2006 Happens. An older well respected rigger passed that on to me years ago. I still sew the cards together. One straight stitch, no backstitch, just on the edge so info is easily seen. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
CrazyL 0 #17 January 3, 2006 Regarding pin tests. I have retested pins when upon inspection one thing or another made me wonder about the pin. It is an easy test. Majority of skydivers are penny pinchers when it comes to the rigging. I have repaired many pieces of equipment that should have been repaired long ago. Some skydivers have a high regard for my opinion concerning the gear. I can understand your feeling about the 'new to you rigger'. Some are rip offs. Make good choices! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
NelKel 0 #18 January 3, 2006 Regarding pin tests. I have retested pins when upon inspection one thing or another made me wonder about the pin. It is an easy test. Majority of skydivers are penny pinchers when it comes to the rigging. I have repaired many pieces of equipment that should have been repaired long ago.<<< Do you ask the owner of the rig first, before beginning the work? _________________________________________ Someone dies, someone says how stupid, someone says it was avoidable, someone says how to avoid it, someone calls them an idiot, someone proposes rule chan Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
skycat 0 #19 January 4, 2006 QuoteRegarding pin tests. I have retested pins when upon inspection one thing or another made me wonder about the pin. It is an easy test. Majority of skydivers are penny pinchers when it comes to the rigging. I have repaired many pieces of equipment that should have been repaired long ago. Some skydivers have a high regard for my opinion concerning the gear. I can understand your feeling about the 'new to you rigger'. Some are rip offs. Make good choices! His normal rigger is an anal bastard who won't let something out of his shop that isn't in perfect working order. He also only does the block method of testing pins, so there are no worries that the pin wasn't checked right. I think this is an attention to detail issue, he is use to a rigger that is very detailed oriented and has just experienced one that is not so much. I have a feeling someone is about to start putting some effort back into getting his riggers ticket. Fly it like you stole it! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
CrazyL 0 #20 January 4, 2006 Majority of the time. Depends on the customer a bit too. Any extra cost over $20 the customer is notified. I also untwist reserve canopy control lines after reserve rides too w/o notifying the customer. Also test canopy fabric if I feel integrity is compromised due to snag/stain etc. Such as finding the type7 legstrap worn through by 1/4 inch where the legstrap hardware pinches the webbing on an icon rescently, I definately notified the customer. After lengthy discussion i replaced the legstrap and also did the SB that he refused previously. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
CrazyL 0 #21 January 4, 2006 Become the anal bastard riggers buddy. I'd bet that when the anal bastard says 'this needs fixed' his customer believes in his opinion and gets the work done without much hassle. Learning to be a parachute rigger is good for a jumper whether or not they become a rigger. I can understand working with detail oriented people. It's difficult to accept anything less. Sounds as if the jumper we are referring to understands a bit of rigging. He seems to definately understand the required pin test. His knowledge may have saved him $10. Good on him. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
ZigZagMarquis 8 #22 January 4, 2006 Riddler... its many questions, like yours, that motivated me to get my rigger's ticket a few years back. Anyway... my 2 cents on your ????'s 1. When I went through rigger training I was told about sewing the old card to the new, but as I recall it was a good idea, not mandatory and frankly, I've never seen it done. However, aside, as I also recall, the Reserve packing data card goes with the RESERVE, not the Rig. 2. Regarding the CW03-01 "re-test"... hmmm... sounds like maybe he got ahead of himself, went and did it, figuring he'd get another $10 and when you called him on it, he didn't want to fess-up. 3. As for the $10 to sraighten out the lines on your main... can you provide a bit more info? Did you ask the rigger to inspect your main after the cut-away? If "yes", then its fair for him to charge for it if he so chooses to. Now if he didn't say up front that he was going to charge for a main inspection that you may have asked for, that's a bit sneaky on his part and also even though some other riggers may do it for free doesn't mean that the next rigger has to do it for free. You may just want to chalk this one off to experience as to things to ask the next time even if its a different rigger. Kind-of the same thing, if you didn't ask for a main inspection and he did it and now wants to charge you... well, you can tell him "no" and just pay him for the rest, but kind of like you don't piss off a waiter before you get your food, make sure you've got your rig in had first... or you can just pay it and, again, chalk it off to experience... or talk it out wiht him, your choice. Also, I understand y'all may wanting a rigger to look at your main after a cut-away, but at the same time, I'd encourage you to learn how to give your own main the "once over" and how to straighten it out and such... the more you know about your gear, the better you'll be. Anyway, to answer your question... "would you trust this rigger"... to be honest, the only thing I find a bit sketchy based on the info you provided is #2, the CW03-01 re-test... #1, whether the old reserve card is or isn't sewed to the new card certainly isn't going to affect the Reserve pack-job one way or the other... #3, eh, depending on whether you did or didn't ask him to inspect your main, sounds like he may or may have not just gotten you for an extra $10 fairly or unfairly, again, won't affect the Reserve pack-job. Not really a "Yes" or "No" answer, I'll admit, but basically it boils down to YOU have to have confidence in what's on your back when you jump, so, if you're not feeling confident in your Reserve repack... take it to your normal rigger... if this story / question is based on actual events and not a "what if". Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
riddler 0 #23 January 4, 2006 QuoteConsider the facts. You used your reserve and landed it.Smile That means it's already hooked up properly, lines are in trim, etc and has been proven in the field. Inspection, Pack reserve, close container, count tools, and seal and document work. It sounds like this rigger performed those tasks. Justs for clarification - this rigger did NOT pack the deployed reserve - that was done by my normal rigger prior to the cutaway. And it did open very nicely. Quote2. Rigger may have missed the documentation that CW03-01 service bulletin was performed on your equipment. But it does suggest they are aware of the FARs, service bulletins, and are performing those checks. Can you prove the rigger did not perform the CW03-01 test even though it was unnecessary? Well, it is just a guess. But as a rigger yourself, do you think you would miss both the SB on the packing card and the writing on the handle, all while stating emphatically that neither exists? Or is it more likely that neither was checked? Quote1. I cannot find the FAR that says they must be sewn together. Apparently there are at least two master riggers who have different opinions on this issue. Required? Maybe not. And maybe if a rigger charges $10 to "untangle the lines on your main" (exact quote), it doesn't mean untwist the brake lines too. But you can see how it would be easy for a customer to imply that - after all, brake lines are lines too. And honestly, why wouldn't you? I'm not questioning FARs as much as I'm questioning attention to detail. I can't say that the FARs are written in such a detailed fashion that they guarantee a good opening reserve. The difference in whether you save a live comes down to the extra effort you put in. Just my two cents.Trapped on the surface of a sphere. XKCD Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
riddler 0 #24 January 4, 2006 QuoteHowever, aside, as I also recall, the Reserve packing data card goes with the RESERVE, not the Rig. Correct as far as I know, and I don't believe I ever said different. At least one rigger I know advocates cards for the container, AAD and main as well. QuoteDid you ask the rigger to inspect your main after the cut-away? Well, in this "theoretical scenario" let's just say that in addition to the normal repack fee, I paid an additional $20 to inspect the main, plus $10 more to untangle the "lines" (which I guess doesn't mean steering lines). For $30, would you expect to have the steering lines untangled? Quotethe only thing I find a bit sketchy based on the info you provided is #2 So the question remains open - if this much attention to detail is lacking, do you trust this person with your life? Or do you get a repack with someone you trust?Trapped on the surface of a sphere. XKCD Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
riddler 0 #25 January 4, 2006 QuoteI have a feeling someone is about to start putting some effort back into getting his riggers ticket. Funny you should mention that - I just dropped $150 on rigger's tools at Paragear today Trapped on the surface of a sphere. XKCD Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
