Are we ever gonna learn?

[airtwardo 6]

No info in your profile so I don't know how long you've been at the rodeo...but it's my experience that the people that are attracted to the sport for the 'danger' aspects move along pretty quick.

It's not about being closer to dyin' that is the attraction, it's the chasin' life at terminal velocity thing.


...that and chicks really dig guys in sweaty spandex.

~ If you choke a Smurf, what color does it turn? ~

[brettski74 0]

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I just don't think you are going to see a year in review of 0 fatalities. It's the nature of the beast and makes this sport, in part, appealing to those willing to "live on the edge".

No, I'm not a necromonger, but would this sport have the same appeal with 20 years of no deaths. I'm not sure it would. (in a perfect world would I like 20 years of no fatalities, well no shit).

I think the opposite is more likely to be true. Compare the equipment we have today with that of 30-40 years ago. If anything, I believe that the gear, knowledge and training that we have today makes the sport much safer than it was in the 1970s and as a result of this, there are many more people willing to try the sport than in the 1970s. I don't really know of any skydivers that are in the sport for the danger or the risk of injury/death. Most skydivers I know are in the sport because they like the feeling of human flight, the challenge of learning new skills and/or sharing that experience with others.

[kallend 1,623]

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"Are we ever gonna learn?"

I just don't know how "fair" this statement is.

You can train, study, and shit a SIM in the middle of a wet dream and still die participating in this sport.

I just don't think you are going to see a year in review of 0 fatalities. It's the nature of the beast and makes this sport, in part, appealing to those willing to "live on the edge".

No, I'm not a necromonger, but would this sport have the same appeal with 20 years of no deaths. I'm not sure it would. (in a perfect world would I like 20 years of no fatalities, well no shit).

I'm just not sure it's an all inclusive "are we ever gonna learn" sorta thing. People make mistakes and die. Just so happens that mistakes in this world are not very forgiving.

I cringe every time there is a new posting in the Incident forum, but realize that this sense of danger and extremism is part of the appeal.

There is a clear difference between a mistake and a willful violation of the rules because the jumper thinks he has Mad Skilz.

...

The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one.

[blkhwk91b 0]

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It's not about being closer to dyin' that is the attraction, it's the chasin' life at terminal velocity thing.

For those that participate in this sport as a hobby or living – Yes
For the weekend college kid who lost a bet – Not so much

I don't think the general perception by the public is on par with ours. How many tandems were dared into doing it by their friends, or say during their video that "this is crazy". It is because there is an element of perceptual danger with a level of real danger mixed in. “chasin’ life at terminal velocity thing” yeah, I get it, you get it, but not the majority of the public.

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I don't really know of any skydivers that are in the sport for the danger or the risk of injury/death.

Neither do I. (see above)

I think we are all mature enough to admit that skydiving is dangerous. No one will convince me that the danger/thrill/extremism, perceived or real, large or small, is not in some fashion a factor of why people are drawn to this sport.

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No info in your profile so I don't know how long you've been at the rodeo...but it's my experience that the people that are attracted to the sport for the 'danger' aspects move along pretty quick.

It’s not how long I have been at the rodeo….. its a discussion of human nature and psychology. I see that you have almost 21,000 posts, congratulations. I am sure with those numbers and experience you are able to see into the heart and merits of a discussion rather than insinuating someone’s
“rodeo time” is the litmus test for intelligence.


(edited: url'd instead of quoted)

"Better to have a short life that is full of what you like doing, than a long life spent in a miserable way." - Alan Watts

[danornan 64]

Seems like the discussion is moving into a "what did you really mean" vs the topic of skydivers doing the unpredictable!

I'd really like to hear why my question of a predictable pattern below 500 feet would not work and strict penalties for all that bust it wouldn't work and make us all a bit safer? Maybe follow aviation landing rules? I'd love to safely land closer to the packing mat...

Dano

[mirage62 0]

Z-Hills is a great place to jump. TK isn't known to be an asshole but he isn't a pussy either. He is ruining a business. I don't have to time in grade in this sport to go back to far but at MOST places:

1. You don't see many low pull's without someone getting on to the offender.

2. Flying over the specators seems to get address

3. Landing against the flow of traffic will get you talked to.

I'm sure a lot of people died before these items started being seriously addressed.

As the larger dz start getting feed up the problems caused by pattern problems it will the correction will come. How many more have to die? Beats me, I'm just trying to avoid the issue!

But why z-hills doesn't have a established seperate area for HP Landing is beyond me. (if that is the case) Put it right in front of the packing tent, or as close to the spectators as the HP pilots want. Make everyone else walk back farther....thats ok if you want to cater to a smaller group of skydivers who's actions are more interesting to watch (and I mean that)

Kevin Keenan is my hero, a double FUP, he does so much with so little

[muff528 3]

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Z-Hills is a great place to jump. TK isn't known to be an asshole but he isn't a pussy either. He is ruining a business. I don't have to time in grade in this sport to go back to far but at MOST places:

1. You don't see many low pull's without someone getting on to the offender.

2. Flying over the specators seems to get address

3. Landing against the flow of traffic will get you talked to.

I'm sure a lot of people died before these items started being seriously addressed.

As the larger dz start getting feed up the problems caused by pattern problems it will the correction will come. How many more have to die? Beats me, I'm just trying to avoid the issue!

But why z-hills doesn't have a established seperate area for HP Landing is beyond me. (if that is the case) Put it right in front of the packing tent, or as close to the spectators as the HP pilots want. Make everyone else walk back farther....thats ok if you want to cater to a smaller group of skydivers who's actions are more interesting to watch (and I mean that)

Just an observation and offering no opinion on whether certain areas should be designated for certain types of landings......but if you look down and see a long pond near a good viewing area, it's a pretty good bet that HP landings will occur near there. At ZHills the pond is at the edge of acres and acres of landing area.

[kallend 1,623]

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It's not about being closer to dyin' that is the attraction, it's the chasin' life at terminal velocity thing.

For those that participate in this sport as a hobby or living – Yes
For the weekend college kid who lost a bet – Not so much

I don't think the general perception by the public is on par with ours. How many tandems were dared into doing it by their friends, or say during their video that "this is crazy". It is because there is an element of perceptual danger with a level of real danger mixed in. “chasin’ life at terminal velocity thing” yeah, I get it, you get it, but not the majority of the public.

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I don't really know of any skydivers that are in the sport for the danger or the risk of injury/death.

Neither do I. (see above)

I think we are all mature enough to admit that skydiving is dangerous. No one will convince me that the danger/thrill/extremism, perceived or real, large or small, is not in some fashion a factor of why people are drawn to this sport.

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No info in your profile so I don't know how long you've been at the rodeo...but it's my experience that the people that are attracted to the sport for the 'danger' aspects move along pretty quick.

It’s not how long I have been at the rodeo….. its a discussion of human nature and psychology. I see that you have almost 21,000 posts, congratulations. I am sure with those numbers and experience you are able to see into the heart and merits of a discussion rather than insinuating someone’s
“rodeo time” is the litmus test for intelligence.


(edited: url'd instead of quoted)

Your post said it was "in reply to" me, but nothing you quoted was written by me.

...

The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one.

[blkhwk91b 0]

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Your post said it was "in reply to" me, but nothing you quoted was written by me.

Sorry about that, disregard. I had like two windows open and stuff was getting jumbled. I'm still having flashbacks

"Better to have a short life that is full of what you like doing, than a long life spent in a miserable way." - Alan Watts

[in2jumping 0]

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I believe that the gear, knowledge and training that we have today makes the sport much safer.

Safer from the jump to your opening.

15 to 20 years ago canopy collisions and canopy related deaths where a rare occurrence, now they are the number one killer in the sport. Back then everyone was pretty much flying slow canopies that flew at close to the same speed. So a congested landing area did not pose much of a risk, today it’s a cluster fsck of slow, medium and fast canopies that poses a high risk.

[mirage62 0]

John, wasn't your close call at z-hills? It was a big way event and I am NOT blaming z-hills just wondering

Kevin Keenan is my hero, a double FUP, he does so much with so little

[DocPop 1]

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He is ruining a business.

Did you mean that? Or did you mean "running"?

"The ground does not care who you are. It will always be tougher than the human behind the controls."

~ CanuckInUSA

[kallend 1,623]

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John, wasn't your close call at z-hills? It was a big way event and I am NOT blaming z-hills just wondering

Yep, someone spiraling down because he was on a back-to-back load got me from behind. Were you there? (it was Z-Team 2006).

Pic attached. I have line twists and collapsed end cells at about 100ft agl, but landed OK.

...

The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one.

[topdocker 0]

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Yep, someone spiraling down because he was on a back-to-back load got me from behind. Were you there? (it was Z-Team 2006).

Pic attached. I have line twists and collapsed end cells at about 100ft agl, but landed OK.

Looks like you set up for a "blindman" a little early!

Glad you're ok!

top

Jump more, post less!

[kallend 1,623]

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Yep, someone spiraling down because he was on a back-to-back load got me from behind. Were you there? (it was Z-Team 2006).

Pic attached. I have line twists and collapsed end cells at about 100ft agl, but landed OK.

Looks like you set up for a "blindman" a little early!

Glad you're ok!

top

It's worth saying again that skill has absolutely nothing to do with surviving a canopy collision. It's pure 100% luck. I was lucky.

...

The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one.

[liftedtitan 0]

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It's worth saying again that skill has absolutely nothing to do with surviving a canopy collision. It's pure 100% luck. I was lucky.

did you punch the guy in the face? did he care? what was his attitude about the whole thing?

Moriuntur omnes, sed non omnes vixerunt.

[mirage62 0]

He is ruining a business.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------


Did you mean that? Or did you mean "running"?

NO NO NO I blew that I meant running and I am sorry for the mistake. I mean that

Kevin Keenan is my hero, a double FUP, he does so much with so little

[muff528 3]

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John, wasn't your close call at z-hills? It was a big way event and I am NOT blaming z-hills just wondering

Yep, someone spiraling down because he was on a back-to-back load got me from behind. Were you there? (it was Z-Team 2006).

Pic attached. I have line twists and collapsed end cells at about 100ft agl, but landed OK.

Uh-oh! Looks like DZs need to designate a 3rd landing area for people who need to spiral down to make the next load. BTW- You are one lucky dude! That was just plain dangerous.

[ufk22 32]

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I count 5 fatalities this year already related to canopy/winds/landing.

Are we ever gonna learn anything?

The problem is, once we learn, we'll just find another new way to kill ourselves.
I started 20 years ago at a "old time" DZ. Very focused on student safety for 1st jumpers, after that very old school. Low pulls and ignoring wind conditions was common, even a point of pride. Back then no-one ever buckled a belt, even students. I learned to be proud of pulling a 4-way off at 2500', 4000' meant we'd turn at least a couple of points before breakoff.
Let's face it, we're all adreneline junkies, and high performance landing are just a new way to squeeze a little more adreneline of of the skydive.
This is the paradox of skydiving. We do something very dangerous, expose ourselves to a totally unnecesary risk, and then spend our time trying to make it safer.

[MotherGoose 0]

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This is the paradox of skydiving. We do something very dangerous, expose ourselves to a totally unnecesary risk, and then spend our time trying to make it safer.

++++++++1
Can I make this my signature ??!!
Humans....we're an odd animal aren't we?

You think you understand the situation, but what you don't understand, is that the situation just changed.

[virgin-burner 1]

why, oh WHY i ask!?

“Some may never live, but the crazy never die.”
-Hunter S. Thompson
"No. Try not. Do... or do not. There is no try."
-Yoda