Vector 3 M series vs. Racer 2K3

[LittleOne 0]

I am going to buy my first new container and am considering these two options. I have researched the forums extensively so I hope I am not beating old issues into the ground but I did not find answers to the following questions:

1. Speed of reserve deployment comparison
The speed of the reserve deployment with a Skyhook is indisputable. However, the Racer is supposed to be very speedy too, by design. If the Racer is coupled with a standard RSL, how does the speed of deployment compare to the Skyhook?

2. Rigger familiarity
Much has been written about how some riggers may not be familiar with a Racer. Since the Skyhook is fairly new, does this situation exist for Vectors as well or are all riggers familiar with the Skyhook? Is it something I should even be concerned about?

3. Non standard main deployment positions with a Racer
Does an exposed pop top present a tangible, additional risk while deploying in a stand position, with a camera or with a wingsuit? The stand position is a minor issue since I am nowhere near being in this situation but I have vaguely thought about trying skysurfing somewhere down the line. I know that skysurfers on a beginner board deploy on their bellies and I would probably never get past the beginner board anyway (then again, I only ever expected to do one tandem...) but I was just wondering anyway. However, I am very likely to try a wingsuit and would like to know if this should affect my container choice.

4. Comfort-seek women's responses only
Both containers are narrow over the shoulders. I did one jump on a Vector and tried on a friend's Racer and I felt more secure since my shoulders are very small. However, do NOS shoulder straps ever cut into or crush larger breasts? Also, is there anything particular about the Vector that puts less strain on the lower back? I know that the Racer has an articulated back pad (terminology??) and I could readily feel the difference this makes.

Or should I just get an Odyssey?

Edited to add
I am focusing on these two containers for the following reasons:
Vector-Skyhook
Racer-comfort and slim profile

Thanks!
Arianna

[FrogNog 1]

It is my opinion that no regular reserve deployment compares in speed (or vertical distance) to a skyhook deployment from an inflated canopy. Everything else (pulling the reserve handle, having the reserve ripcord / pin pulled, or having the loop cut) just gets the reserve container open so the PC can eject, and then it takes airspeed and time to yank on the reserve PC and go through the steps of deployment to line-stretch and bag removal. The skyhook should (when cutting away from an inflated canopy) get to that point in about the vertical distance of all the webbing involved.

Riggers vary. I am always concerned about what my riggers know and I make sure each is competent for my equipment. If a riggger isn't, he (or she) drops out of my rigger pool.

Pop-tops, when packed properly, typically suck down into the reserve container area pretty well. I don't know about Racers specifically. However, people who worry about lines going over their backs do voice concerns about having pop-tops. I don't know if their concerns have any incidental or statistical backing, but line-container entanglements seem like they would be "as bad as anything could possibly get" so I can see why people would want to be overly cautious about this.

-=-=-=-=-
Pull.

[cbain 0]

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I am going to buy my first new container and am considering these two options. I have researched the forums extensively so I hope I am not beating old issues into the ground but I did not find answers to the following questions:

1. Speed of reserve deployment comparison
The speed of the reserve deployment with a Skyhook is indisputable. However, the Racer is supposed to be very speedy too, by design. If the Racer is coupled with a standard RSL, how does the speed of deployment compare to the Skyhook?

2. Rigger familiarity
Much has been written about how some riggers may not be familiar with a Racer. Since the Skyhook is fairly new, does this situation exist for Vectors as well or are all riggers familiar with the Skyhook? Is it something I should even be concerned about?

3. Non standard main deployment positions with a Racer
Does an exposed pop top present a tangible, additional risk while deploying in a stand position, with a camera or with a wingsuit? The stand position is a minor issue since I am nowhere near being in this situation but I have vaguely thought about trying skysurfing somewhere down the line. I know that skysurfers on a beginner board deploy on their bellies and I would probably never get past the beginner board anyway (then again, I only ever expected to do one tandem...) but I was just wondering anyway. However, I am very likely to try a wingsuit and would like to know if this should affect my container choice.

4. Comfort-seek women's responses only
Both containers are narrow over the shoulders. I did one jump on a Vector and tried on a friend's Racer and I felt more secure since my shoulders are very small. However, do NOS shoulder straps ever cut into or crush larger breasts? Also, is there anything particular about the Vector that puts less strain on the lower back? I know that the Racer has an articulated back pad (terminology??) and I could readily feel the difference this makes.

Or should I just get an Odyssey?

Edited to add
I am focusing on these two containers for the following reasons:
Vector-Skyhook
Racer-comfort and slim profile

Thanks!
Arianna

Let me preface this by saying I jump a Racer 2K3 and I used to jump an old style Vector but not the new one.

1. I haven't seen a Skyhook deployment myself but my understanding is nothing else out there is as fast. I do not jump with an RSL on my Racer.

2. I don't know about the Skyhook. It is important to find a rigger comfortable with packing Racers and who can do it well. My husband is my rigger and he jumps a Racer too.

3. With a properly packed reserve with the pop top seated correctly it would be incredibly difficult to catch a line, nearly impossible. I have however seen some poorly packed Racers where this might be a concern.

4. I love the way my Racer fits. I have the NOS option and I have large breasts. It is very very comfortable. I have the chest strap above my breasts instead of under or across because I've tried rigs with chest straps in all three positions and I find that the above option is the most comfortable.

Both are great rigs. I can't wait for the Skyhook to be available for other rigs as well. Good luck.

Christina

[Miami 0]

For a little background on my reply...I've been jumping both vector 3's and racers for the past 3 years, and pretty much only racers the 8 years before that.

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1. Speed of reserve deployment comparison
The speed of the reserve deployment with a Skyhook is indisputable. However, the Racer is supposed to be very speedy too, by design. If the Racer is coupled with a standard RSL, how does the speed of deployment compare to the Skyhook?

It would not really be a comparison...the skyhook is going to be faster by far.

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2. Rigger familiarity
Much has been written about how some riggers may not be familiar with a Racer. Since the Skyhook is fairly new, does this situation exist for Vectors as well or are all riggers familiar with the Skyhook? Is it something I should even be concerned about?

If the rigger is not familiar with the system, regardless of which it is, problems can arise with the reserve repack. I'm much more familiar and current with racer reserve repacks, but others may not be...while my sig line is poking fun it is not a joke.

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3. Non standard main deployment positions with a Racer
Does an exposed pop top present a tangible, additional risk while deploying in a stand position, with a camera or with a wingsuit? The stand position is a minor issue since I am nowhere near being in this situation but I have vaguely thought about trying skysurfing somewhere down the line. I know that skysurfers on a beginner board deploy on their bellies and I would probably never get past the beginner board anyway (then again, I only ever expected to do one tandem...) but I was just wondering anyway. However, I am very likely to try a wingsuit and would like to know if this should affect my container choice.

Just like with any system as long as it is packed correctly there would be no issues of a line hanging up on the pop top. While I have never jumped a board I have jumped numerous wingsuits and thousands of video jumps with no issues what so ever with my racers (I've had 4 of them).

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4. Comfort-seek women's responses only
Both containers are narrow over the shoulders. I did one jump on a Vector and tried on a friend's Racer and I felt more secure since my shoulders are very small. However, do NOS shoulder straps ever cut into or crush larger breasts? Also, is there anything particular about the Vector that puts less strain on the lower back? I know that the Racer has an articulated back pad (terminology??) and I could readily feel the difference this makes.

Just like the skyhook cannot be beat for reserve extraction speed, the racer cannot be beat for comfort and lower weight. I would be extremely shocked if you ordered a racer and had it come not fitting properly.

In all I would suggest going with the racer. When you look at rigs as a whole they are all pretty equal as far as functionality goes. That aside what factors do you have to judge which rig you want? If you were to do a side-by-side comparison of the two rigs...
comfort - racer
light weight - racer
looks - ...well, thats really in the eye of the beholder isn't it?

Hope this helps...

Miami

[tso-d_chris 0]

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1. Speed of reserve deployment comparison
The speed of the reserve deployment with a Skyhook is indisputable. However, the Racer is supposed to be very speedy too, by design. If the Racer is coupled with a standard RSL, how does the speed of deployment compare to the Skyhook?

The Skyhook deployment is going to happen faster.

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2. Rigger familiarity
Much has been written about how some riggers may not be familiar with a Racer. Since the Skyhook is fairly new, does this situation exist for Vectors as well or are all riggers familiar with the Skyhook? Is it something I should even be concerned about?

Riggers familiar with either should be fairly easy to find. The Vector and the Racer have both been around for quite some time. I don't recommend using a rigger that charges more to repack a Racer. That is often a sign that they are unfamiliar with the rig.

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3. Non standard main deployment positions with a Racer
Does an exposed pop top present a tangible, additional risk while deploying in a stand position, with a camera or with a wingsuit? The stand position is a minor issue since I am nowhere near being in this situation but I have vaguely thought about trying skysurfing somewhere down the line. I know that skysurfers on a beginner board deploy on their bellies and I would probably never get past the beginner board anyway (then again, I only ever expected to do one tandem...) but I was just wondering anyway. However, I am very likely to try a wingsuit and would like to know if this should affect my container choice.

A properly packed Racer is snag resistant. Racers also have "dynamic" corners, which is a favorite feature among wingsuit flyers. This means the corners of the main container are not sewn together, and lay flat when the pack tray is open.

If your priority is a high speed RSL, a Vector3 is your best choice. If your priority is comfort or reserve pin protection, the Racer is your best choice. Everything else is personal preference. Both are great rigs, as is the Odyssey.

[MrBrant 0]

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If the Racer is coupled with a standard RSL

somebody PLEASE correct me if I'm wrong, but isn't the Racer rsl FAR from "standard"?
(With funky-no-good shit happening if you have a dual deployment where the main leaves the container second - or something?)

(I dont' jump a racer, I just remember my rigger going into a little blurb about the racer RSL at our last equiment seminar, and mentioning somethign about that)

[Miami 0]

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somebody PLEASE correct me if I'm wrong, but isn't the Racer rsl FAR from "standard"?
(With funky-no-good shit happening if you have a dual deployment where the main leaves the container second - or something?)

(I dont' jump a racer, I just remember my rigger going into a little blurb about the racer RSL at our last equiment seminar, and mentioning somethign about that)

I wouldn't really call it "far from standard" but jumpshack does make their rsl a little different from the rest. The rsl actually connects to both risers to prevent a reserve fire should only one riser release for whatever reason. If in the odd and rare case that your reserve gets deployed followed by your main it is extremely necessary to disconnect one or both of the rsl clips before releasing the main canopy. Not doing so will cause the now cutaway main risers, which are connected to each other with the rsl clips across the front of the reserve, to slide up the reserve lines...potentially choking off the main canopy. The limited testing I've done with this on the ground have all ended with the risers continuing over the reserve and clearing to allow the reserve to re-achieve full inflation. So definitely could cause a ass puckering situation, especially depending on what altitude it happened at. If either or both rsl's are released before the cutaway in the same situation the main departs as normal. If I remember correctly jumpshack offers both the conventional one sided rsl or the dual sided rsl, but I can't remember for sure now.
Hope this helps...

Miami

[Superman32 0]

It seems to me that by the way you worded your question, other than comfort, the racer has more to overcome than the Vector

Inveniam Viam aut Faciam
I'm back biatches!

[LouDiamond 1]

Questions #1 and #2 have all been answerd pretty well. As for #3 you will not have any issues with the 2K3 be it from a board or a wingsuit and I have been known to fly a wingsuit ever once in a while. The 2K3 is completely velcro free and freefly friendly with nothing exposed so #3 shouldn't be an issue.


As for #4, I will chime in with this. You will not find a more comfortable or better fitting rig than a Racer,especially if you have narrow shoulders. Nancy from Jump Shack is well aware of the issues a woman has to deal with when selecting a container. The NOS container was originally designed for an extremely small female who could not find proper equipment. The benefit is that even if you don't have narrow shoulders, the entire system is still very comfortable. On the breast issue I will refer you to THIS thread that covers things you should be looking for when ordering a rig and with concerns to breasts and chest strap placement. I also recommend you give Nancy a call at Jump Shack and discuss any issues or questions you may have with her as she can answer them all for you from a female's perspective.

"It's just skydiving..additional drama is not required"
Some people dream about flying, I live my dream
SKYMONKEY PUBLISHING

[teason 0]

A couple of things to consider, without a main, the skyhook has no advantage. Skyhook notwithstanding, the Racer has amazing reserve deployment time. I've seen an ad that shows a 150' deployment from cutaway.

Racers also have great options on chest strap and handle placement.

I would rather be a superb meteor, every atom of me in magnificent glow, than a sleepy and permanent planet.

[tso-d_chris 0]

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A couple of things to consider, without a main, the skyhook has no advantage. Skyhook notwithstanding, the Racer has amazing reserve deployment time. I've seen an ad that shows a 150' deployment from cutaway.

If that 150 ft. deployment time is accurate, that means the Racer deploys the reserve with RSL in about the same distance as the Skyhook.

Interesting.

[Remster 24]

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A couple of things to consider, without a main, the skyhook has no advantage. Skyhook notwithstanding, the Racer has amazing reserve deployment time. I've seen an ad that shows a 150' deployment from cutaway.

If that 150 ft. deployment time is accurate, that means the Racer deploys the reserve with RSL in about the same distance as the Skyhook.

Interesting.

I think his point was that the 150 ft was acheived without a RSL.

Remster

[Miami 0]

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A couple of things to consider, without a main, the skyhook has no advantage. Skyhook notwithstanding, the Racer has amazing reserve deployment time. I've seen an ad that shows a 150' deployment from cutaway.

If that 150 ft. deployment time is accurate, that means the Racer deploys the reserve with RSL in about the same distance as the Skyhook.

Interesting.

RWS suggests the skyhook gets the reserve out in 75ft...I'd be willing to bet in some situations it's significantly less than that. I don't see a 150ft reserve deployment as anything outlandish from a racer.

Miami

[tso-d_chris 0]

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RWS suggests the skyhook gets the reserve out in 75ft...I'd be willing to bet in some situations it's significantly less than that.

Some videoed Skyhook deployments took almost every bit of 100ft, with canopies packed slider down (or possibly slider off). Based on this, I would be reluctant to believe the Skyhook can deploy a reserve in 75 feet or less when packed properly.

Maybe it is that fast, but I have not seen supporting evidence.

[tso-d_chris 0]

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I think his point was that the 150 ft was acheived without a RSL.

So the 150 foot deployment included reaction time? That is very impressive.

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I've seen an ad that shows a 150' deployment from cutaway.

[katzurki 0]

When I was shopping for containers, I outlined a triangle of price (Spirit), safety (Vector 3), and comfort (Racer) -- not saying that one option eliminates the other, but each is the trademark of the container, its best-known selling point. Went with Racer. Would have gone with Vector if I had the funds. Have not been sorry so far, except for the fact that about a month after I got my Racer, a new company sprang into existence with a pretty impressive and cheap container (no, you can't order it...no TSO

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[sundevil777 93]

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So the 150 foot deployment included reaction time? That is very impressive.

Why would it include reaction time? If I were trying to demonstrate how quickly a reserve could open, I would have no delay at all between cutting away and pulling reserve - pull the handles simultaneously.

People are sick and tired of being told that ordinary and decent people are fed up in this country with being sick and tired. I’m certainly not, and I’m sick and tired of being told that I am

[tso-d_chris 0]

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So the 150 foot deployment included reaction time? That is very impressive.

Why would it include reaction time? If I were trying to demonstrate how quickly a reserve could open, I would have no delay at all between cutting away and pulling reserve - pull the handles simultaneously.

I didn't think it did include reaction time. The post I responded to implied such. Sorry for the misunderstanding.

[Miami 0]

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Maybe it is that fast, but I have not seen supporting evidence.

Me either...with the skyhook anyway. Have seen some cutaways with similar systems from very low alt and the reserve achieved inflation in what seemed to be the neighborhood of 40-50ft...barely more than line stretch. The 75ft comment is just off of RWS's website, but if it's the same or similar to the systems I've seen I wouldn't be surprised if it were true or beyond truth.

Miami

[Salsa_John 0]

Why I bought a Vector. in no particular order except for 1 - 4

1. skyhook

2. Short main closing loop - less to get caught up on something though unlikely

3. thoroughly protects bridle from pin to boc

4. The way the main and reserve flaps close

5. Comfort

6. Customer service - the best in my book

7. Wide chest strap - holds better and is more comfortable.

8. Bill has done a lot to increase safety in the sport (he gets nothing for developing the 3ring release/BOC/etc)

9. Other rigs copy Vector features - why get a copy when I can have the original?

note: not knocking any other rigs

"You did what?!?!"

MUFF #3722, TDSM #72, Orfun #26, Nachos Rodriguez

[bliston 0]

Both my rigs have skyhooks, and maybe I can shed a little personal experience on this one. I've had four rides, two skyhook saves and two non-rsl deployments on Javelins.

My skyhook rides were both from spinning mals and my reserves deployed horizontally (as if I did a hop and pop). I was at lin stretch in about 20 feet, or less if you were measuring vertically. Until you've had one w/ a skyhook, you won't believe it.

There is no way a pop top can compare to that. Just go find a local base jumper and ask them how drastic the distance is between a direct bag and using a pilot chute (consider, too, the acceleration away from a fixed object or your bad main that it takes to build up drag). Then add in the fact that for most mals, besides maybe a line-over, it's going to take the average jumper some time (maybe 100-200ft) to get stable and find there reserve handle...

I trust myself to do everything right, and have proven myself by getting my reserve out fast after a having a bag lock in the basement. I say this because I'm not someone that relies ont an RSL out of fear that I might not handle myself under pressure. My understanding as a rigger and personal experiences has led me to jump only skyhook equiped vectors. They're built well, they're comfortable, and I think they're the safest rig money can buy.

And yes, I've owned a racer, too. It was comfortable but given the choice, I'd jump/buy/pick a vector any day of the week.

Mass Defiance 4-wayFS website


sticks!

[lowpull 0]

Just buy the Racer dammit!

You tried mine on.it fit, it's the most comfortable,and besides, Racers were made for us short folk!!!!!

love you

Ralph

[tso-d_chris 0]

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Both my rigs have skyhooks, and maybe I can shed a little personal experience on this one. I've had four rides, two skyhook saves and two non-rsl deployments on Javelins.

My skyhook rides were both from spinning mals and my reserves deployed horizontally (as if I did a hop and pop). I was at lin stretch in about 20 feet, or less if you were measuring vertically. Until you've had one w/ a skyhook, you won't believe it.

There is no way a pop top can compare to that. Just go find a local base jumper and ask them how drastic the distance is between a direct bag and using a pilot chute (consider, too, the acceleration away from a fixed object or your bad main that it takes to build up drag). Then add in the fact that for most mals, besides maybe a line-over, it's going to take the average jumper some time (maybe 100-200ft) to get stable and find there reserve handle...

I trust myself to do everything right, and have proven myself by getting my reserve out fast after a having a bag lock in the basement. I say this because I'm not someone that relies ont an RSL out of fear that I might not handle myself under pressure. My understanding as a rigger and personal experiences has led me to jump only skyhook equiped vectors. They're built well, they're comfortable, and I think they're the safest rig money can buy.

And yes, I've owned a racer, too. It was comfortable but given the choice, I'd jump/buy/pick a vector any day of the week.

I agree that the Skyhook gets the canopy out of the bag a little bit quicker, but you seem to underestimate the speed of the average non skyhook RSL deployments. They are very fast as well, even if not quite so in comparison with the Skyhook.

I guess it depend on what you think makes a safe rig. Some might argue that the bullet proof reserve pin protection makes the Racer the safest rig on the market. Others might argue that the Skyhook RSL makes the Vector3 the safest rig on the market. Both are overstatements of valid arguments.

The unsurpassed reserve pin protection of the Racer adds to its level of safety. The unsurpassed reserve deployment speeds of the Skyhook add to the safety level of a Vector3. Neither feature makes either rig the safest rig on the market.

[RMURRAY 1]

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Just buy the Racer dammit!

You tried mine on.it fit, it's the most comfortable,and besides, Racers were made for us short folk!!!!!

love you

Ralph

racers = lightweight
what does your power racer weigh in at again???

found your old post.........10.5 lbs!!!

rm

[LittleOne 0]

oh please! you KNOW i need to analyze. i finally learned to stop analyzing at 13.5 but i'll not be denied at 0.0.