Packing - leaving 24 inches of line between the last stow and the risers

[lintern 1]

Does it matter if I leave around 24 inches of line between the last stow and the risers ?

I know its normally advised to leave between 12 to 18 inches between the last stow and the risers.

But if I put the extra stow in then there is not enough spare line, so when I put the bag in it starts to pull the last stow out !

So I either have too much spare line or not enough !

Is there a risk that with too much spare line laying in the bottom of the container that a tangle or knot could occur as the bag is extracted ?

It's difficult to s-loop the spare line as it is, because the lines are quite stiff and waxy.

I have only come accross this problem of too little or too much spare line since I changed the method of how I put the canopy in the bag (because I really struggled and still struggle getting the dam thing in the bag!)

[Maxim 0]

i think someone told me once it used to be the in thing to freestow all your lines once apon a time.

i have packed with lots of left over lines and bearly any never had a problem. not saying though that the extra line couldnt cause a problem. cause you would think so. but i myself have not had a problem.

Crew and Base canopys also freestow all there lines. in tail pockets.

Life is Great. Even Greater what we do with it.

[hookncrater 0]

[notarigger]
Okay, let me caveat this, I am not a rigger and I didn't even sleep in a Holiday Inn Express last night!

But, I generally leave 18-24 inches of line unstowed between my slinks and the last stow. I have never had a malfunction or a hard opening as a result. In my feeble packing experience, it is better to have too much unstowed line than too little. Too little has the potential to cause line-twists, and has for me twice, as I felt the d-bag spin leaving my back.
[/notarigger]

________________________________________________________________________________
when in doubt... hook it!

[tdog 0]

Very interesting question.

I do the same thing... About 24". Actually, my openings are more on heading too...

100 jumps since I switched and no mals... But I want to know what others think too, as 100 jumps is not enough to get a baseline.

[mailin 0]

Quote

its normally advised to leave between 12 to 18 inches between the last stow and the risers.

Why?

I leave less than that - new canopy, hard to bag and I don't stow with the last 2 bands - when its all stowed I have less than 12" from last stow to risers.

Never had any trouble with hard openings or anything...


Jen

Arianna Frances

[rsibbald 0]

N.B. You should ask for advice from an advanced packer/rigger who can examine the kit in front of them.

The length you leave will vary depending on your container size, bag length, container shape etc.

Very generally, you should have enough excess so that the bag can lift symmetrically off your back, before the lines start to unstow. This will increase your chance of on-heading openings. 24 inches of excess does not sound like overkill, and as long as you s-fold it neatly then there shouldn't be any problems.

[BETO74 0]

think about it this way, as the pilotchute pulls your freebag out the container the space between the last stow and the risers is actually more speed and strengh to pull the lines that are stow the least space you leave you get more risk of having line twist than somebody who leaves the recommended lengh. More than that becomes a risk of having tension knots or line entaglement with each other, remember when you pack you leave the excess of lines trying to make "S" shapes then you place the freebag 45 degrees on top of these lines as you push the bag to fit the container those lines move and rubber against each other wich could be a problem whae your canopy is too small for the container since allows more movement of the bag against the container and more lines rubbing against each other.

Conclusion not too little and not to much space just the right amount.

Maybe somebody will put ot on simpler words.

http://web.mac.com/ac057a/iWeb/AC057A/H0M3.html

[LawnDart21 0]

Unfortunately there isn't one correct answer on excess line length.........I say "find what works best for your gear, and stick with that."

I never ever ever leave more than 12 inches of excess line, its usually 6-12 inches, (the closer to 6 the better, but I also have 22 inch risers that reach into the main tray when stowed), the way I place my d-bag in container and place the excess line, I dont need or want any more excess line than necessary to fit in the container the way I want it.

I have approx 1000 pack jobs this way mostly on Mirages and Javelins, and off heading openings/line twists are sooooo infrequent that I dont even remember the last one I had.

--
My other ride is a RESERVE.

[amy 0]

Be aware that the more unstowed line you leave in the bottom of the container, the greater the chance that some of that line will wrap itself around something and cause a problem. We recently had a jumper at Perris whose container was ripped off of his harness when a loop of unstowed line wrapped around one of the main flaps and caught on the stiffener as the main was deploying. It was still entangled when he cut away and deployed his reserve, and he was lucky to land without injury.

This is one of those Goldilocks issues - leave too much, and your increasing your chances of an entanglement. Leave too little, and your chance of line twists increases. How much is just right? It'll depend on your rig and canopy, and the length of your risers relative to the container size.

Ask a rigger or experienced jumper at your DZ to take a look at what you're doing; they may have some suggestions for you.

Amy

[riggerrob 563]

Quote

i think someone told me once it used to be the in thing to freestow all your lines once apon a time.

>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>

Yes, free-stowing was fashionable - briefly - circa 1980.
Free-stowing feel out of fashion after one guy died and our very own mjosparky suffered from main suspension lines knotted around a side flap.

Ever since then, people have used some form of sleeve, slag, d-bag, POD, diaper, tail pocket, etc. to lift suspension lines clear of containers early in the deployment process.

And let's keep our terminology straight.
"Free-stowing" implies dropping, coiling or figure-eighting main suspension lines in the main pack tray. As soon as you start to use any kind of a line stow pocket, you quit free-stowing.

• Quote

[riggerrob 563]

This question was asked at a PIA Symposium a few years back.
John LeBlanc (Performance Designs) and Brian Germain (Big Air) said leave a minimum of 18 inches of suspension lines loose to prevent lines and risers from catching under the lower corners of the reserve container and trying to rip it off.
I also vaguely remember hearing the "18 inch" dimension from John Sherman (Jump Shack).

I have repaired Talons, Javelins, Sidewinders and Vctors that all suffered this sort of malfunction/packing error.
A minor variation of this malfunction is nasty line twists.

The line guides sewn into EOS, Wings, Icon and Sidewinder force packers to route lines and risers straight down the sides of the main pack tray, helping to prevent idiot packers from mis-routing risers.

The flip side ... leaving too much line un-stowed increases the risk of suspension lines half-hitching around main flaps. This malfunction killed a couple of guys circa 1980 and is the reason behind the latest service bulletin grounding Omega containers.

The solution is to leave 18 to 24 inches of lines loose between the last rubber band and the connector links on solo rigs and slightly longer on tandems (because of the wider reserve container).

[goose491 0]

I leave a pretty good length myself. I don't think 24 inches would be much of an issue unless you are not storing them proper... cornering them and whatnot.

I did do a jump where only the locking stowes were on... the line was all freestowed in the container figure 8 style. It gave me the first-jump willies at pull time but a wonderful opening ensued.

My Karma ran over my Dogma!!!

[marinho 0]

Quote

Does it matter if I leave around 24 inches of line between the last stow and the risers ?
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Yes, it does!

I know its normally advised to leave between 12 to 18 inches between the last stow and the risers.
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I recommend to my customers and friends to use the same length of the risers as a reference between the last stow and the risers. Very simple, no numbers, no figures!!!!

Be safe and have fun
Augusto Marinho
Rigging Sotutions

Gus Marinho

• Quote

[mdrejhon 8]

Hmmm..... I'm starting to pack. I'm trying to figure out what's best for my container too, for safest and softest openings.

It's a situation where I get either 12 inch, or 24 inch (or slightly more than that) depending on whether I go for that extra line stow. People have told me either has been fine. (I don't seem to be able to get a middling value such as 18 inch). I've done it both ways and haven't seen a difference until the last jump where I did get one significantly off-heading opening.

It seems this thread suggests off-heading opening might be related to doing 12 inches instead of 24. However, I have only had 5 jumps on my packjobs, so it may not yet be statistically significant.

So this reminds me. I'll ask several riggers at the dropzone for their opinions on my next visit.

(packerboy, if you see this...please comment.)

[lintern 1]

Quote

Quote

Does it matter if I leave around 24 inches of line between the last stow and the risers ?
------------------------------------------------------------
Yes, it does!

I know its normally advised to leave between 12 to 18 inches between the last stow and the risers.
------------------------------------------------------------
I recommend to my customers and friends to use the same length of the risers as a reference between the last stow and the risers. Very simple, no numbers, no figures!!!!

Be safe and have fun
Augusto Marinho
Rigging Sotutions

Augusto, could you please explain why it does matter, leaving around 24 inches of line between the last stow and the risers ?

Thanks.

• Quote

[marinho 0]

Hi John,
Yes I can explain!
First, if you leave too little of remaining lines, you will probably have a off-heading or line twist because one side of the lines will be shorter than the other side and in this case, close to the reserve wall! You can check this problem by just putting the main deployment bag on top the main top flap.
Second, I think is pretty hard to try to get the right length of remaining lines so just use the length of your risers as a guide to accomplish that.
For example:
If you have a 21 inches risers (Standard), you will have approximately 21 inches of remaining lines. Using your risers, in my personal opinion, get you free of figures, numbers and etc.
I think too much remaining lines also will give some problems. Just find what works for you and sure that you are not too little or too long
Be safe and have fun,
Augusto Marinho
Rigging Solutions

Gus Marinho

[packerboy 3]

The amount that I showed you to leave is the amount that I leave when I pack. Sometimes I leave more, sometimes less, depends on the container/d-bag config I basically am more concerned about having neat and tidy stows than whether there is 12-or 30 inches left over. I could be wrong, but I can't see how the excess could loop around the stows and cause a lock because it is free of having its own loop... line twists... chaos.. you're chucking a bag off your back at 120 mph sometimes it will twist.

That being said Mark, we have the same canopy/like container/ riser/line config and I very rarely have line twists or off heading/hard openings using the technique that I showed you. To be honest I don't think 24' is a whole lot, nor do I think 12' is too little if you can get the D-bag into the container properly without disturbing the last stow. Any less than 12' and you might have problems doing that.

I pack all sorts of canopies / containers from tiny Velo's to tandems like that with no problems.

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In matters of style, swim with the current; in matters of principle, stand like a rock. ~ Thomas Jefferson

[billbooth 10]

After looking at hundreds of slow motion videos of main deployments, I leave as little line unstowed as possible. Unstowed line tends to "dance" around all over the place between container opening and line stretch. And it certainly looks dangerous when your container flaps and lines dance together. The military, on direct bag static line rigs, actually hand tacks, with break cord, the riser ends to the D-bag, after stowing 100% of the lines on the bag under a protector flap. I'm beginning to think that something like this (rubber bands, not break cord) might not be such a bad idea on sport rigs. Your risers and 100% of your lines would be pulled away from you immediately, and therefore your risers could not get caught under your reserve pack tray, and your lines could not get caught around a flap or under a grommet. Plus, both riser covers would be pulled open very quickly, and at precisely the same time. (Uneven opening of risers covers is thought by some to cause asymmetrical and/or hard openings.)

[wmw999 2,178]

So even if we don't rubber-band our risers, if we split the last set of lines, and rubber-band each side's separately on its own side of the bag. I might try that. Sounds interesting.

Wendy W.

There is nothing more dangerous than breaking a basic safety rule and getting away with it. It removes fear of the consequences and builds false confidence. (tbrown)

[billbooth 10]

Sounds good to me too.

[EvilLurker 2]

I've put short stows on my last packing band many times when I felt I had too much line left and have had good results. My risers end just at the bottom of the reserve container. I never left 24 inches of line in my packing tray, I'd say closer to 10 and I'd take a "half-stow" to achieve that. I only had minor line twists (about 1 1/2 twists) once in 100 jumps doing it that way. 24 inches of free line would scare me, personally, I want everything out of that packing tray ASAP. Just my opinion, though, I haven't studied much video of openings.

[wmw999 2,178]

I have lots of jumps with more unstowed line with no issues (I'm from the past), but, well, if someone has video'd it makes sense. So this last weekend I put a couple more rubber bands on, and stowed each side's line group separately with about 4" of line left over (enough for it not to stretch).

Good openings, felt "right." I might well keep doing it.

Wendy W.

There is nothing more dangerous than breaking a basic safety rule and getting away with it. It removes fear of the consequences and builds false confidence. (tbrown)

[Freeflysmiley 2]

Bill ( I've a Micron so am very interested in what u have to say), I understand less unstowed line equals less entanglement risk on flaps, but presumably this increases your risk of off-headings or more seriously line twists?

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Practise the 6 P's!
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[mdrejhon 8]

The 12 inches is a perfect length to easily put the bag in without disturbing the last stow.

Very interesting to see that Bill Booth (who probably designed my Vector2 container) say that less is better.

However, just to be sure that offheading opening was simply caused by my inexperienced packing or Sabre tendancies, I will monitor any linetwists or offheading openings and re-try 24 inches if necessary. Only to get the bag out of my burble and away from flaps before the lines unstow. But then again that might not matter according to what is said here....

More important is for me to worry about the slider.... don't want a Sabre opening to kill me.

[Ollo 0]

Quote

So this last weekend I put a couple more rubber bands on, and stowed each side's line group separately with about 4" of line left over (enough for it not to stretch).

This sounds interesting. But there is one question from my side how to manage this. If I think about it, it seems to me that if you split the last set of lines and rubber-band each side's separately on its own side of the bag one set of lines will remain longer than the other. Or are you doing some kind of loop on one side before you stow the lines the last time? Can you tell how you split and stow the lines or maybe provide a picture of it. Thanks very much in advance.