Purchase of a new container: Safe downsizing in future 190->170->150?

[mdrejhon 8]

Gonna talk to my dropzone about it this weekend, but am also checking opinions here too. I'm really considering buying a new container and they often have long manufacture times (up to 8 weeks!).

I am seriously considering getting a container custom built with a 190 main and a PD176 reserve after I confirm these are okay with the dropzone... I'm flying a Sabre 190 now, so these numbers probably should be OK. Probably a Vector 3 (I wish I ordered before the price increase though...*sigh*) with a Skyhook and articulated harness.

Some people say I should size the container for a 190 of a 7-cell type, so that it would still reasonably fit a 190 9-cell albiet a bit tightly.

The supposed advantage is that I'll be able to safely downsize to 170 and 150 in the next several hundred jumps, and the container will last me many years.

The supposed disadvantage is that a tight-fitting canopy would be an increased pilot chute in tow (or baglock) danger.

On some of the big container name websites, some manufacturer specifications show room for one size bigger and one size smaller, which indicates a container, if properly custom designed, should last through two down sizes (i.e. 190 -> 170 -> 150) so it looks like some container manufacturers sanction this practice.

I'll have done about 60 to 75 jumps by the time I am jumping this rig.

Opinions, especially based on real-world experience, are welcome.

[TALONSKY 0]

I personally would not buy a custom container which will be a very tight fit for your current main. First it makes packing a complete nightmare. Secondly you may find that you will want to stay with this size main for a long while or you may find yourself being more aggressive and downsizing quicker. The point being if you drop the money for a new container you may be getting rid of it in a year or so and losing a fair amount on the resale. I would suggest for first rigs buying used. This way you do not take the risk of losing alot of money on new gear depreciation. If in a year you have found that this use rig is the size you want you could always resale it and buy new then.
Kirk

[sammer 0]

It probably depends on how comfortable you are packing. I did just what you are contemplating and it worked out great for me...but other people hated packing my rig while the 190 was in it.

BTW: I got a Wings (W-13 I think), and put a Hornet 190 and a PDR-176 in it. I still have the same reserve, but have gone through a Crossfire-169 and now I have a Crossfire2-149 in it. It still looks good with the 149 in it. I probably would buy a smaller container if I ever go any smaller with my main though.

Sam

[mdrejhon 8]

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I personally would not buy a custom container which will be a very tight fit for your current main. First it makes packing a complete nightmare. Secondly you may find that you will want to stay with this size main for a long while or you may find yourself being more aggressive and downsizing quicker. The point being if you drop the money for a new container you may be getting rid of it in a year or so and losing a fair amount on the resale. I would suggest for first rigs buying used. This way you do not take the risk of losing alot of money on new gear depreciation. If in a year you have found that this use rig is the size you want you could always resale it and buy new then.
Kirk

True. At about 100 jumps per year, I would want my container to last about 4 years before I sell it.

I am hoping to take a Scott Miller canopy course as I have just found out today that it is coming to my home dropzone this August. I would like to stick to my first canopy size for approximately 200 jumps to get really familiar with it, and this will take me about 1.5 to 2 years. Assuming one or two downsizes, I would be able to keep the container for 4 years. Jumping about 100 to 150 jumps per year, realistically.

By this opinion, a new container would pay dividends in safety and room to downsize. I don't think I'll be that aggressive and downsize to a 1.5+ WL in less than 400 jumps later.

There's the possibility that after a good canopy course (ie Scott Miller), myself and some others may think 190 is too docile for me and I should do a 170 for the next 200-300 jumps (after my 60-75th jump). If that happens, then it'll be already a perfect fit for this container and I'd still have room to downsize safely to 150 after I'm very familiar with the 170.

Or on the other hand, I may even feel like sticking to the 190 for about 500 jumps. I heard some of the best jumpers flew the same canopy several hundred times before switching, so that's another good reason too...

I am still open to buying a used rig. I'm still sitting on the fence about it, but if I buy new, I might as well get one of the best -- Vector3 with a Skyhook and articulated harness. It'll probably even improve my arch too for my current discipline of interest (RW) with making it easier to stretch my legs back even with a tight harness...

[Now, 200 jumps at a high wingloading? Ouch. I'm not going in that direction...]

[hookncrater 0]

Get a Mirage with an M5 container size if you want versatility and quick delivery. They fit most 190s without much hassle packing, can go down to a 170 no prob and maybe even an airlocked 150 with a shorter closing loop (ask your rigger first though). They fit a PD176R snug and can get a PD160R in there too.

Best part, 4 week delivery time and excellent resale if/when you sell it.

In fact, I know of a couple in that size range that are for sale, some in the classifieds and one a dropzone I jump at infrequently.

________________________________________________________________________________
when in doubt... hook it!

[skybytch 259]

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Probably a Vector 3

Why not ask RWS if they think it's a good idea? They likely know more about what will or won't be safe in one of their containers than any of us will.

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Opinions, especially based on real-world experience, are welcome.

When I ordered my current container I told the mfr that I would be putting a Spectre 170 in it but planned to downsize to a 150 within 50 or so jumps. That downsize didn't happen until 250+ jumps later.

There are packers out there who have refused to pack my Spectre into it because it's a very snug fit. I've packed it a few times and they're right - it's a major bitch to put the canopy in the bag. But - that's in California where the air is dry. In Florida, where the air isn't so dry, the 170 packs up a bit easier.

If you aren't already good at packing zp - and especially if you're planning on getting a new (or newer) main - you will NOT enjoy packing a 190 into a container sized for a 170. How high is your frustration level? Or... for how long can you afford to pay packers?

[kelpdiver 2]

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I am still open to buying a used rig. I'm still sitting on the fence about it, but if I buy new, I might as well get one of the best -- Vector3 with a Skyhook and articulated harness. It'll probably even improve my arch too for my current discipline of interest (RW) with making it easier to stretch my legs back even with a tight harness...

I never found a freefly friendly used rig that was sized for 210-230. I did see a cheap Vector II with a Falcon 215, but that when I was still jumping a Falcon 265 and it seemed too aggressive.

so I got a Wings sized for a Sabre 210, and put a tri 220 in it. Doesn't seem too tight, but I don't plan to put smaller than a 190 in it someday.

If you're really worried about the container becoming obsolete too soon, do you want to pay top dollar now? Mine is probably 60% the cost of that V3. If in a couple years it's time to move on, then is a great time to spend the $$$ when the pace of canopy change slows down.

[sundevil777 94]

If you continue to jump the 190, and learn your survival skills on a forgiving canopy without thinking about your next, and next downsizing, and you have a lot of fun on it for years to come, then you will probably be able to have lots of fun for years to come after that because you'll be still be walking without a limp.

Plus, honestly, the rigs that fit larger canopies are in demand, with high resale value to newbies. The smaller rigs are not appropriate for newbies, and the experienced jumpers are much more likely to want a custom rig.

People are sick and tired of being told that ordinary and decent people are fed up in this country with being sick and tired. I’m certainly not, and I’m sick and tired of being told that I am

[mdrejhon 8]

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Plus, honestly, the rigs that fit larger canopies are in demand, with high resale value to newbies. The smaller rigs are not appropriate for newbies, and the experienced jumpers are much more likely to want a custom rig.

Good point. I am having a harder time finding used rigs that fit a Sabre 190 than used rigs that fit those Stiletto 135's.

That may equate to less depreciation for a new rig fitting a 190. Hmmm.

I want to try to stay with the same rig for many hundreds of jumps, and I don't want to be in a rush to downsize. I think I'll be happy with 190 for years to come and I intend to take a canopy course sometime this year (probably Scott Miller since I found he's coming to my dropzone). I want to settle on a specific size, such as 190 that I am flying now, for several hundred jumps to get really familiar with the canopy before downsizing. That's the recommendation I hear.

I do want to make sure it lasts a reasonable downsize or two, so that I may be able to bring the container to between 500-1000 jumps jumps before I sell it... At 150 sq feet, that's still a wingload of only 1.25:1 for me and that'd be relatively conservative for a 1000-jump count...

[GravityGirl 0]

It's been my experience as a gear dealer....

...people always try to plan for multiple canopy downsizes. Thinking they will want to hang onto the container as long as humanly possible.

But in reality, they end up wanting a new container after a downsize or two anyway. Containers will continue to improve and change, you'll want to change your color scheme, you'll start a team... who knows.

All I know is that of my customers that buy new from the start, want all new in a couple seasons.

So my vote is to plan for this size plus one downsize. Then wait to see where you are at and what you want, when the time comes. Unless of course you can predict the future. In which case, PM me instantly!

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Peace and Blue Skies!
Bonnie ==>Gravity Gear!

[mdrejhon 8]

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But in reality, they end up wanting a new container after a downsize or two anyway.

Maybe you're right. That's another argument for a used container for the first one, and buy new for the next one in a couple years. See, that's why I'm sitting on the fence, so many good arguments to either side.

However, even if I buy a new container, I'll only have funds for used canopies and a used AAD. So it's not entirely 100% new...

Or maybe I should jump 100 times on rentals first and then immediately settle on 170, then I'd be more-or-less within the Germain specification of WL 1.1 at 100 jumps (General guideline 0.1 increments per 100 jumps), meaning 170 sq/ft would be fair game, becoming the canopy I'd now stick with for several hundred jumps to really get familiar with the same canopy rather than downsizing regularly. (Obviously, timing of when to go 1.1 isn't always set in stone, and who knows, I might have no business flying even the Sabre at 1.0 WL -- although the dropzone specified it for me and thinks I'm flying it fine so far and landings have been good so far).

This is likely moot anyway, since I want a rig before Scott Miller visits my dropzone in August, and I feel it must be a 190 for safety, the same size I'm flying right now. (Unless there's a good reason to keep doing rentals a bit longer...and postpone my "A" license a bit longer...since I'll have to be pack-trained when I have my own rig)

I have a specific color scheme that I'd like to stick with for about five years, so I am aiming for that. If I am wrong, then that's because of my improved finances in the future... I've already got the altimeter in the same color scheme, I've already designed the rig in RWS's designer, and I'm about to do the same with the jumpsuit....

Decisions, decisions... Used vs new. (That brings me back to the other post I made the other day)

Advantages Of Buying New
- Much more comfortable harness designed for my body
- Newer rigs are generally safer, free-fly safe.
- Custom colors
- Custom sized for the canopies that I truly want
- Can be designed to comfortably fit one level of downsizing (at least).

Advantages Of Buying Used
- More inexpensive
- Usually less depreciation than a new rig
- Less chance of buyer's remorse if I decide to get rid of gear soon
- "Successfully Pre-tested"

[arlo 0]

let me add this to the equation: scott's course is not a magic wand that immediately makes someone ready for a downsize nor does it make someone an instant canopy expert. scott gives you the tools to help you make better choices under canopy. the intent isn't to rush to the next smallest canopy.

listen to bonnie. she's been in gear sales for years and knows what she's talking about. so many times people try to buy their stuff for future use but you know what? you're gonna be using it NOW so buy it to fit what you have NOW and deal with the other stuff later. if you buy it to comfortably fit the 190, a 170 will still fit in it later.

buying gear to fit what you think you might want later would be like buying an ill-fitting wardrobe that you'll fit into after a diet next year.

use the right equipment that fits you now. don't compromise or cheat yourself because you want to save money 2 yrs from now.
good luck with your decisions...

arlo

[skybytch 259]

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Maybe you're right.

No maybe about it. Bonnie's been selling gear long enough to have seen numerous people do exactly as she describes. What she's saying matches what I saw selling gear from '96 til '04. Only thing I'd add is that those who bought new and didn't buy new again at their second downsize either didn't downsize further or quit jumping.

btw, if you'll be loading a 190 at 1.0, you may want to consider getting a larger reserve. Think about it - do you really want your first jump on an all F111 seven cell loaded at almost 1.1 to be your first reserve ride? Size your reserve for the worst case scenario - ie do you think you can land it downwind into a backyard at sunset and walk away? Sure, you may not need to use it for thousands of jumps... or you could need to use it on your first jump on the rig.

[AggieDave 6]

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let me add this to the equation: scott's course is not a magic wand that immediately makes someone ready for a downsize nor does it make someone an instant canopy expert. scott gives you the tools to help you make better choices under canopy. the intent isn't to rush to the next smallest canopy.

And if you tell Scott that (you're downsizing due to all the mad skillz you learned at his course), he'll get reasonbly annoyed with you. Ask him about people asking that, he's got some good stories about it. Unfortunately come to find out Scott is having to fight this perception with many low time jumpers.

Its still a badass canopy course, though.

--"When I die, may I be surrounded by scattered chrome and burning gasoline."

[arlo 0]

you are exactly right. he's dedicated alot of his time and life to educating people on good decision making and it's a shame that some people twist it into "making themselves" canopy superstars right out the door.

he's doing a great thing and god bless robin for being so supportive of him being gone all the time.

[TALONSKY 0]

I currently have one used rig and one new rig . I like my new Infinity best but at almost double the cost of my second rig (which is also a very nice rig) I really have trouble stating that new is the best. Here is the cost break down of each.
New Rig
Infinity $1500
PD 143 $800
VX109 $1000
Cypres $900
Total $4200

Used Rig
Eclipse $250.00
PD 126 $670.00
Xaos 98 $1200.00
Risers $130.00
Total $2250.00

[MarkM 0]

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Or maybe I should jump 100 times on rentals first

How much are rentals, $20 a jump? That's 2k in cash for those 100 jumps to rent gear. It'd be much cheaper to buy a used container that fits a 190 perfectly(so you're not killing yourself on it while learning to pack) then turn around and sell in in 100 jumps for maybe $100-200 less than what you paid for it.

Then you'll be sitting on a 100 jumps knowing how to pack pretty well, knowing more about gear in general, ready for a 170 and a new container that will fit a 170 through 150(which will last you awhile). You can spend the money you save on a container on a brand new AAD which you can move from container to container.

[mdrejhon 8]

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And if you tell Scott that (you're downsizing due to all the mad skillz you learned at his course), he'll get reasonbly annoyed with you. Ask him about people asking that, he's got some good stories about it. Unfortunately come to find out Scott is having to fight this perception with many low time jumpers.

I have never asked anyone to downsize me or even asked when to downsize. The 190 was given to me when they thought I was ready. I won't be asking Scott.

Unless I have many people, including Scott, spontaneously telling me that 170 is more appropriate for my skill levels and I am comfortable with it, I'd like to do my next 200-300 jumps on a 190 to really get familiar with a canopy.

I just have been reading up on guidelines to downsizing and the most common one is the 1:1 for a starter rig, and 1.1:1 at 100 jumps, 1.2:1 at 200 jumps, 1.3:1 at 300, etc. But I'm not planning to downsize every 100.

[mdrejhon 8]

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btw, if you'll be loading a 190 at 1.0, you may want to consider getting a larger reserve. Think about it - do you really want your first jump on an all F111 seven cell loaded at almost 1.1 to be your first reserve ride? Size your reserve for the worst case scenario - ie do you think you can land it downwind into a backyard at sunset and walk away? Sure, you may not need to use it for thousands of jumps... or you could need to use it on your first jump on the rig.

That is the route I am going if I am getting used. I am talking to my dropzone this weekend before getting specific sizes.

For new -- My thinking was it would pack better with future downsizes if I want to jump with a new container 500-1000 times. And then I'll be at nearly 75 jumps by the time I first jump that rig so I should be ready for a 1.07:1 loading by then, by the time a new container is manufactured. That is yet to be confirmed, obviously - I wouldn't go for this size without approval by several at my dropzone. Personally (maybe thinking incorrectly) I'd rather be under a new PD176 with good flare than, say, a used Raven 190 with crappy flare, based on the information I've been hearing.

Keep tuned, I haven't made a final decision. Decisions, decisions.

[hookncrater 0]

Ravens only have a (insert negative adjective here) flare if you overload them.

I know plenty of pros that use them (within said max exit weight) and have never complained about poor performance. I have even seem them swooped farther than I can do with my main.

________________________________________________________________________________
when in doubt... hook it!

[tso-d_chris 0]

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I'd rather be under a new PD176 with good flare than, say, a used Raven 190 with crappy flare, based on the information I've been hearing.

Maybe I'm missing something, but why not a PD 193 reserve? Even with PD reserves, it is a good idea to size it appropriately for a worst case scenario. Remember, if you have to use your reserve, things are already going badly. IMO it is much better to wish you were under a smaller reserve than to wish you were under a larger one.

[egons 0]

Vector 3 V350 and Skyhook = PR176 + Sabre2 - 190. Perfect combination.

"Start doing what's necessary, then what's possible, and suddenly you're doing the impossible!"

[HydroGuy 0]

Dude, your quest parallels mine almost exactly- jump numbers, exit weight, etc.

I have searched all around for used gear that will hold a Safire2/Sabre2 190 down to a Spectre 170, thinking that this will hold me over for a couple of years. All the larger containers I find are 10 years old for the most part...or are damn near the price of new gear.

My conclusion is to buy new gear, or at least a new container. That way everything is new - velcro (if any), tuck tabs, stiffeners etc. It is custom sized for YOU. If or when you ever need to resell, that size gear will still fetch top dollar. I've even gone as far as to decide I will only get black and greys on my new container so it will be easier to resell. And since I'm not going to have it for 10,000 jumps, why waste money on stainless steel upgrades? Or custom embroidery?

The downside to new gear - the waiting time and cost. But if you have to have your used gear altered, or possibly repaired in any way, it's going to cost you...time and money.

I just cannot decide between an Infinty or Mirage....

Get in - Get off - Get away....repeat as neccessary

[skybytch 259]

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And then I'll be at nearly 75 jumps by the time I first jump that rig so I should be ready for a 1.07:1 loading by then, by the time a new container is manufactured.

If that's what you decide to do, I'd highly recommend getting your hands on a PD176R demo canopy (contact PD for details) and put a few jumps on it in perfect conditions before you jump your new gear. Land it well a few times when things are good and you're more likely to walk away from the landing when things go to shit.

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Personally (maybe thinking incorrectly) I'd rather be under a new PD176 with good flare than, say, a used Raven 190 with crappy flare, based on the information I've been hearing.

Precision doesn't make a Raven 190; closest square footage to 190 is the 181 (Raven I) and 218 (Raven II). As long as they aren't loaded over about 1.1, Ravens land well.

[mdrejhon 8]

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If that's what you decide to do, I'd highly recommend getting your hands on a PD176R demo canopy (contact PD for details) and put a few jumps on it in perfect conditions before you jump your new gear. Land it well a few times when things are good and you're more likely to walk away from the landing when things go to shit.

A few people recommended a 176R for the same reasons I did, but good point about getting familiar on a PD176R demo. Cheap insurance that I might consider when my jump numbers are high enough -- assuming I decide to go the new container route... It's also possible my jumps become 100 by the time the rig is finally pieced together... Especially if I get a mid-summer windfall. I don't want to hurt myself obviously, trying to find the balance where I can own the container for a fair bit of time, but without going through the intermediate step of getting a used container first. Having a 193R would be awkward when I downsize to 170 in the future, and especially 150 (perhaps a fluffed up 9cell airlocked that packs similiar to 170, if I found one at a bargin at my 600th jump ), so much that I might just rent to make sure my jump numbers are high enough for a 176R... Yes, wingloading is controversial, I know.

I can bypass $20 CDN rentals ($16 USD) by paying $65 daily rentals ($50 USD) and paying only the $5 CDN pack fees ($4 USD), and I'm jumping accordingly (I jumped 9 times in one day because of this). Only marginally more expensive than the loss of money on buying my own used rig, jumping it only 100 times, and reselling...

Still, I'm definitely keeping an eye on used rigs. But, I'm also leaning towards a PD193R especially if I rush to get a used container in early July.

There is a lot of attraction in getting a top of the line Vector3 container with Skyhook and custom harness, which would net me a pretty safe rig with a relatively good resale value (Vectors 3's tend to keep their price better, it seems, especially if it's very new).

According to my calculations, the price of a good fully used rig versus a new container with used canopies, is only about a 25% difference (~$3250 CDN versus ~$4250 CDN). For that extra $1000 CDN ($800 USD), I'll go the extra luxury of custom harness, custom colors, and the SkyHook insurance... Prices I calculated included the going prices of a discounted 0-jump PD reserve and a used 300ish-jump Sabre1, and a used AAD with a few years left that already had its 8-year check and new battery. Also includes dealer discount on the Vector3 order (good to have a friend who's a dealer...though it only saves a few hundred). It just means I'll have to save for longer. Live poor between paychecks....

Now, there's a lot of temptation for getting an "okay rig" for $2000-$2500 USD ($3000 CDN), but it'd be likely to be a less-freefly-friendly Vector 2 or some more inexpensive brand, but then I'm less likely to have buyer's remorse. And most of these often have expired AAD's that cost extra to update...

None of the cheapie used rigs ($1500 USD / $2000 CDN) seem to attract my attention, either using canopies I really am not interested in, doesn't have AAD, isn't freefly friendly, or fits canopies too small for me....but you never know, I may see a bargain that's very appropriate for me. The used rigs that I like the most, are so close to being able to buy a new Vector3 with SkyHook RSL, I might as well buy a new container!

Another thing is that I hear some of the safest and best canopy pilots have jumped their first rig a 4-figure times (1000 times) before they moved to another rig. So another good argument to buy new... Essentially finding a safe compromise and stick with it to get intimately familiar with it...

This is driving me crazy...