Driving in Snow Alert . . .

[NickDG 23]

I guess we see these every year now, so here's this years version . . .

http://www.cnn.com/video/#/video/us/2010/12/19/wa.ice.sliding.cars.khq?hpt=C2

NickD

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[skydiver30960 0]

I'm intrigued by the fact that, from where the video was shot, nobody appears injured and all the vehicles seem driveable. Also, the road downhill seems to be a bit more passable. If there was time and opportunity (i.e. a safe interval in the hail of skidding cars) to move the vehicles once they settled, they could eliminate the "sudden stop at the end" and afford skidding cars more time to regain control. I know that such a pile-up requires a LOT of information sharing (b/c heaven forbid you don't provide the name and insurance information for every vehicle involved or driver who was even in the same ZIP code at the time of the accident) but doing so with the vehicles in a safer location seems to make sense.

Elvisio "just a thought, albeit easy for me to say from my warm couch far far away" Rodriguez

[CanuckInUSA 0]

This video was from Spokane, you would think these people would have some experience driving on the icy stuff. Someone should have ran to the top of the hill and stopped the other vehicles from coming down the hill once a few cars started piling up at the bottom. But that is too logical.

Oh and before someone says I don't know what I am talking about, I live on a hill just as steep if not steeper than the one seen in this video. I live in a cold icy climate where snow and ice is a daily reality from October through to May (sometimes June). In order to get to and from work as well as the stores I must navigate my hill every day. If the normal track becomes icy, get off of the track and drive a different line. Oh and how many of these vehicles seen in that video use automatic transmissions? Probably all of them. Automatics are for people who park their brains in automatic while they drive. Icy hills can be a challenge to navigate, especially when your brain is parked in automatic.

Try not to worry about the things you have no control over

[d_squared431 0]

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This video was from Spokane, you would think these people would have some experience driving on the icy stuff. Someone should have ran to the top of the hill and stopped the other vehicles from coming down the hill once a few cars started piling up at the bottom. But that is too logical.

Oh and before someone says I don't know what I am talking about, I live on a hill just as steep if not steeper than the one seen in this video. I live in a cold icy climate where snow and ice is a daily reality from October through to May (sometimes June). In order to get to and from work as well as the stores I must navigate my hill every day. If the normal track becomes icy, get off of the track and drive a different line. Oh and how many of these vehicles seen in that video use automatic transmissions? Probably all of them. Automatics are for people who park their brains in automatic while they drive. Icy hills can be a challenge to navigate, especially when your brain is parked in automatic.

I have to say it doesn't matter if you have an automatic or a stick shift when driving on a icy road. Just cause you live in Canada doesn't mean you know the snow conditions on that hill at that exact moment. Washington has fucked up snow temps and snow. I spent plenty of time snowboarding there and the snow goes from dry light to cement and slick from one run to the next. I hated driving on the the roads by the resorts due to that slickness. A lot of moisture in the air causing the snow conditions to turn to shit fast.

TPM Sister#130ONTIG#1
I love vodka.I love vodka cause it rhymes with Tuaca~LisaH
You having a clean thought is like billyvance having a clean post.iluvtofly

[skyrider 0]

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This video was from Spokane, you would think these people would have some experience driving on the icy stuff. Someone should have ran to the top of the hill and stopped the other vehicles from coming down the hill once a few cars started piling up at the bottom. But that is too logical.

Oh and before someone says I don't know what I am talking about, I live on a hill just as steep if not steeper than the one seen in this video. I live in a cold icy climate where snow and ice is a daily reality from October through to May (sometimes June). In order to get to and from work as well as the stores I must navigate my hill every day. If the normal track becomes icy, get off of the track and drive a different line. Oh and how many of these vehicles seen in that video use automatic transmissions? Probably all of them. Automatics are for people who park their brains in automatic while they drive. Icy hills can be a challenge to navigate, especially when your brain is parked in automatic.

4 of my inlaws that have never driven on ice in thier lives, just moved to that area....I am sure they are not alone...

[petejones45 0]

Haha i always enjoy watching people from the left coast try to drive in the snow

Look out for the freefly team, Smelly Peppers. Once we get a couple years more experience we will be a force to be reckoned with in the near future! BLUES!

[NickDG 23]

Ha Ha, I always enjoy watching people from the right coast stuck in the snow.

NickD

[CanuckInUSA 0]

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I have to say it doesn't matter if you have an automatic or a stick shift when driving on a icy road.

Of course it has a huge influence. With an automatic transmission the wheels are always driving forward while the vehicle is in gear (which is usually the case). Of course now comes the argument "Oh I just shift into neutral" to be followed with "What takes less time? Engaging the clutch with your foot, or trying to find neutral with your hands and the shifter?". No as long as both of my arms, both of my legs and that thing between my ears continues to work, I will avoid automatic transmissions like the plague. You just have so much more control with what your wheels are doing with a manual transmission.

Try not to worry about the things you have no control over

[nanook 1]

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You just have so much more control with what your wheels are doing with a manual transmission.

Why is that? You can upshift and downshift with automatics also. Neutral is always a next indent with the Drive selection and usually doesn't require to toggle anything to bump it there. As far as Standards, even today's transmissions have some cheats that doesn't give you complete control. All you have to do is push in the clutch and put the stick into gear. No more worrying about RPM's and wheel speeds before downshifting. Do you know how to downshift without using your clutch?

_____________________________

"The trouble with quotes on the internet is that you can never know if they are genuine" - Abraham Lincoln

[warpedskydiver 0]

Having a hand brake (hand activated parking brake) is nice as well because you can use it to slow the drive wheels to less rpm.

Also you can use it to make a directional change.

[kawisixer01 0]

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*** Do you know how to downshift without using your clutch?

lol whats so hard about a little throttle blip? UP shifting with no clutch is done fairly commonly, especially in motorcycle racing. Down shiftng not so much, it tends to be pretty hard on gears. The real question is if you can heel/toe shift?

[CanuckInUSA 0]

When I am traveling down a hill with a manual transmission, I select a low gear and let the engine help control my speed. There is less need to apply the brakes and a greater chance that the vehicle is balanced meaning more grip on all tires. It's all about NOT losing grip and I have less chance of losing grip heading down a slippery slope with a manual transmission.

Automakers like to put the general population in FWD automatic transmission vehicles because the panicky public can limit the trouble they find themselves in. An oversteering RWD vehicle can be big trouble for someone who panics. For the general population, it is better to understeer as they get to see the tree they are about to hit versus not seeing the tree thanks to the monster spin they are in.

For myself I avoid these FWD understeering automatics like the plague. I will take an oversteering RWD manual transmission vehicle thank you very much (having the ability to occasionally shift into 4WD is a nifty neat-o feature when you need to go up a steep slippery slope). You may choose to disagree with me, but I still contend that I have so many more car control options in balancing my vehicle to maintain grip when using a manual transmission versus an automatic. With automatics the wheels are always driving when it is in gear. Yikes

Try not to worry about the things you have no control over

[CanuckInUSA 0]

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The real question is if you can heel/toe shift?

I can't heal/toe in my Jeep Wrangler if my life depended on it. Trust me I have tried. The pedals are not situated right as there is too much vertical distance between the brake pedal and accelerator pedal, and in order to do it I must rotate my foot. But then I can't rotate my foot because the center console gets in the way. But heal/toe'ing in my 911 is easy. Even though it is over kill on the public roads, I still do it all the time since it is now second nature.

Try not to worry about the things you have no control over

[nanook 1]

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The real question is if you can heel/toe shift?

Yes I can. Saves the synchros. That was one of the old ways of shifting back in the olden days that is now very popular with the street racers today. But I usually don't race through corners anymore.

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lol whats so hard about a little throttle blip? UP shifting with no clutch is done fairly commonly, especially in motorcycle racing. Down shiftng not so much, it tends to be pretty hard on gears.

All the gears are permanently meshed. You aren't changing gears with the shifter, you are moving the collars back and forth between gear sets. It a matter of syching up the input shafts, lay shafts and output shafts to allow a seamless shift, whether up or down.

_____________________________

"The trouble with quotes on the internet is that you can never know if they are genuine" - Abraham Lincoln

[nanook 1]

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You may choose to disagree with me, but I still contend that I have so many more car control options in balancing my vehicle to maintain grip when using a manual transmission versus an automatic. With automatics the wheels are always driving when it is in gear. Yikes

My disagreement is more with the fact that the way to apply control is different, not exclusive, between the two types. The drivers will have to learn that difference going back and forth. I can make my wheels do the same relative to the engine regardles what type of tranny I am using. I have to come about it at a different way.

But, I kind of agree with you also. Many people don't know how to use an automatic. And I have also seen people abuse manuals also. Downshifting without bringing the RPM's up to "meet" it. Downshifing and using the clutch to control engine braking.

_____________________________

"The trouble with quotes on the internet is that you can never know if they are genuine" - Abraham Lincoln

[CanuckInUSA 0]

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I have also seen people abuse manuals also. Downshifting without bringing the RPM's up to "meet" it.

Absolutely.

Years ago the very first night I took delivery of a RWD manual transmission Toyota Supra I drove it home and there happened to be light snow on the road that night. Fortunately what happened next didn't happen around other cars, but I foolishly downshifted (thinking I knew what I was doing at the time ... oh to be young and naive) and with little warning swapped ends. The snow on the road didn't help, but the snow was NOT the reason why I swapped ends. I swapped ends because I did not match RPMs, I lost grip and the car spun. It wasn't until years later when I had some advanced driving instruction on a race track that I was able to put two and two together and understand why I lost grip that night thanks to a poorly performed downshift. I was just lucky that it only happened once.

Yes modern transmissions have some rev matching built into them making things easier on us and our cars. But I don't drive a modern car. My Jeep is 12 years old and my Porsche is a little older at 14 years old. So I have to do it the old fashion way for both. I heal/toe in the Porsche and blip the throttle with the Jeep.

Try not to worry about the things you have no control over

[drdive 0]

Automatic or manual is not the issue, despite your oversimplified solution to the problem. Granted, some Spokane drivers are idiots ( as in all places) but there are some steep hills here, and yesterday was one of those days with fresh snow, just under freezing, conditions ripe for nice packed down snow and extremely slippery conditions. As you can see, once they started down the hill and braked they had NO CONTROL. But of course, Mr canuck, your manual transmission would have made all the difference in the world

And by the way, Spokane street department wouldn't want to be inconvenienced to go sand the hills for a mere inch or 2 of snow when more than likely warm weather will eventually solve the problem

"We saved your gear. Now you can sell it when you get out of the hospital and upsize!!" "K-Dub"

"

[CanuckInUSA 0]

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As you can see, once they started down the hill and braked they had NO CONTROL. But of course, Mr canuck, your manual transmission would have made all the difference in the world

ROFLMAO ... how ironic you say "once they started braking they lost control", yet you want to slam me because I say with a manual transmission they would not need to brake as much (maybe not even need to brake at all) if they let the engine help control their speed on the descent.

Dude I live on hill just as steep as the hill in this video. I also live in a city that does not clear the snow from it's residential streets. Once winter sets in (usually around October) it stays slick on the hill I navigate every day until April or May (sometimes even June). You can choose to say anything you want on this matter. All I am saying is there are ways to handle these icy hills. You do not have to ride your brakes which causes you to slip and slide totally out of control.

Try not to worry about the things you have no control over

[JohnMitchell 14]

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This video was from Spokane, you would think these people would have some experience driving on the icy stuff.

Try not to worry about the things you have no control over

Your sig line, in bold above, is perfect for this.
"Try not to worry about the steering and braking of your car."

[d_squared431 0]

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As you can see, once they started down the hill and braked they had NO CONTROL. But of course, Mr canuck, your manual transmission would have made all the difference in the world

ROFLMAO ... how ironic you say "once they started braking they lost control", yet you want to slam me because I say with a manual transmission they would not need to brake as much (maybe not even need to brake at all) if they let the engine help control their speed on the descent.

Dude I live on hill just as steep as the hill in this video. I also live in a city that does not clear the snow from it's residential streets. Once winter sets in (usually around October) it stays slick on the hill I navigate every day until April or May (sometimes even June). You can choose to say anything you want on this matter. All I am saying is there are ways to handle these icy hills. You do not have to slam on your brakes which causes you to slip and slide totally out of control.

Okay I was just going to let it go but now I can not. I know Canada has some harsh winters but some of you Canadians(not all just this poster) have no damn clue what the hell you are talking about. Automatic or stick shift. I have had both and you know what after living yrs in Reno/ Tahoe and making that commute over st route 431 daily for umpteen yrs and traveling to Washington state and Organ I will take an automatic Subaru over a stick shift any day. I have owned jeeps, Toyota 4x4, Nissan 4x4, Toyota front wheel tercel and Subarus. That little Toyota front will drive 4speed with studded tires kicked ass in snow. The jeep suck donkey balls and i hated that damn thing. It was a stick and had a push button 4wheel drive button. The nissan 4x4 old school locking hubs kick ass in the snow. Wasnt because it was a stick shift but because I knew how to drive it. The best and I mean best automatic car i have ever had has been my subaru. You mentioned down shifting in the cars, let me tell you it was much smoother in an automatic and more control than i ever had in any stick shift.
Again i will say this:

NOTHING WILL HELP ON 1-2INCHES OF ICE ON A STEP HILL.


Now, If you said people who have little snow driving experience I would not have said a damn word. Any good snow driver can drive any vehicle correctly in all weather conditions. You get a few people who have little snow/ice driving under their belts and you get a nice little video clip like you saw. Most people who live in the city areas of snow country really have little to no snow driving skills. Hell, they have never even made the drive to the resorts to ski or snowboard.

TPM Sister#130ONTIG#1
I love vodka.I love vodka cause it rhymes with Tuaca~LisaH
You having a clean thought is like billyvance having a clean post.iluvtofly

[JohnMitchell 14]

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Automatic or manual is not the issue, despite your oversimplified solution to the problem. Granted, some Spokane drivers are idiots ( as in all places) but there are some steep hills here, and yesterday was one of those days with fresh snow, just under freezing, conditions ripe for nice packed down snow and extremely slippery conditions. As you can see, once they started down the hill and braked they had NO CONTROL. But of course, Mr canuck, your manual transmission would have made all the difference in the world

And by the way, Spokane street department wouldn't want to be inconvenienced to go sand the hills for a mere inch or 2 of snow when more than likely warm weather will eventually solve the problem

Hi Doc,
As the owner of only 2 wheel drive cars, I get a little schadenfreude from watching the big 4x4's sliding out of control, locked up like everyone else. I've always maintained that 4 wheel drive may get you going, but it's no advantage to stopping, which is way more important. I saw the one driver navigate the hill by judicious braking, keeping the wheels rolling, and steering around other cars. That's the secret, but still sketchy on an icy hill like that.

[CanuckInUSA 0]

I didn't realize this thread has turned into a "my car is better than your car" thread. I am happy you like the Subaru. I got to drive one once coming back from skiing in Colorado, and it seemed like a decent vehicle. But it was only once and not enough seat time time to properly assess it. But unlike you I am not trying to focus on one specific make and model.

Haha ... it is no secret I avoid understeering FWD automatics like the plague. It is my biased preference to prefer oversteering RWD manual transmissions. But my preference for the oversteering RWD manual transmission vehicles extends well beyond just winter driving. I have already stated why I prefer manual transmissions on icy hills. Plus what difference is 1" of ice, 2" of ice or a thin layer of ice? If the tires lose grip, they lose grip. Can we leave it at that?

Try not to worry about the things you have no control over

[Amazon 7]

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Automatic or manual is not the issue, despite your oversimplified solution to the problem. Granted, some Spokane drivers are idiots ( as in all places) but there are some steep hills here, and yesterday was one of those days with fresh snow, just under freezing, conditions ripe for nice packed down snow and extremely slippery conditions. As you can see, once they started down the hill and braked they had NO CONTROL. But of course, Mr canuck, your manual transmission would have made all the difference in the world

And by the way, Spokane street department wouldn't want to be inconvenienced to go sand the hills for a mere inch or 2 of snow when more than likely warm weather will eventually solve the problem

Hi Doc,
As the owner of only 2 wheel drive cars, I get a little schadenfreude from watching the big 4x4's sliding out of control, locked up like everyone else. I've always maintained that 4 wheel drive may get you going, but it's no advantage to stopping, which is way more important. I saw the one driver navigate the hill by judicious braking, keeping the wheels rolling, and steering around other cars. That's the secret, but still sketchy on an icy hill like that.

See that right there is why BIG RED... Goes offroad in low range 4x4 when it gets that slick.. there is far more traction in peoples front yards

Lots easier to go and stop... and only a few yard gnomes might be injured in the making of this most excellent video of going down the hill without bouncing off all the poor wittle 2 wheel cars left all over the road askew with no traction at all

[JohnMitchell 14]

I still think the problem in that video and in snow driving in general is people not thinking far enough ahead of the vehicle. You're not going to stop in 30 feet, or maybe 300 feet. What are you gonna do now? Where are you going to go in 100 feet? In 100 yards? If you can't answer those questions, you don't start off down the hill.

[Skootz 0]

That damn ice had me hitting a curb and forced me to go straight in the round about by the skydiver pound. The other side of the round about lead down a hill....I was totally screwed. And then when I got out of my car because it couldn't make it back up the hill......the damn ice got the better of me! Pfffttt....I was flat on my back half a second after I got out of the car!