Fatalities and their broad effects

[Duckwater 0]

One fatality really got to me...to my core...It was the worst thing I have ever seen. And I didn't know anyone involved. It affects me to this day.

They were doing some big way training at Perris and I was watching Charles Bryans kids... 1 and 2 years old...I was laying on the grass with both of them climbing all over me...Life is great...

I then get a wiff that something bad happened..The truck speeds off...seen it a hundred times..

So we are laying there and I hear a sound I never want to hear again from the guy packing his chute right next to me. Melanie was telling him that it was his wife in the accident.

I tried to get 2 squirmin kids and me out of there as fast as I could. The pain and emotion he had was so undescribeable.....I think it really scared me because I can't imagine feeling that...

It freaks me out still....I want to hug that guy....I cant believe I feel so much for someone I never said a word to. I saw a guy get decapitated right in front of me in a horribly gory motorcycle accident and it didnt bother me near as much as this.

People, when someone dies, a Mom, Dad, Child, Aunt...Strangers...Lots of people hurt. The effects are broader than you can imagine.

Skydiving is not the danger. It can be done safely. Look at the It is bad judgement and lack of communication and regulation in the skydiving industry. I had the SAME malfunction that killed this lady a month before...I cut away....I went to the loft and Larry tacked my slinks and installed elastic to hold my excess. Common sense says that loose lines and tabs sticking out is not good. Why are there rigs out there today with loose slinks? This killed someone! I had no idea this was a good idea...It should be mandatory! So should hard riser inserts.

Swooping is highly dangerous and should be concidered a stunt. As an aerobatic pilot, you never commited the nose low where he arc for recovery was anywhere near the plane of the ground. A simple loop or reverse cuban has killed many pilots because they misjudged the entry altitude.

It is the same principle with swooping. Once you are good at it, like Team Extreme, it becomes relatively safe. The problem lies in the learning curve. There is no "safe" way to teach it. The margin of error is too narrow. Sure it is cool, no way is it worth the risk of traversing the learning curve in hopes you walk away from it.

Swoop accidents are killing the sport. I know this is contreversial, but I fully support USPA mandated wing loading and types of parachute. I also support a ban on any riser or toggle turn to landing until at a competent instructor signs off. Teaching yourself to swoop is nuts. As a private pilot flying 150's I cant go hop in a P-51 without a LOA from the FAA after I prove my ability.

Im no fan of the FAA but flying is incredibally safe considering what is involved. Regulations work, they suck, but they work.

As for whether skydiving is 'worth it'....Well, yes and no....In hindsight, for people that are hurt or dead, hell no it wasnt. But we can't live in fear of unknowns and "what if's". We CAN control the controllable.
Regulate wingloading, canopy types, currency, prohibit swooping until at least a checkout by a Pro. Have centraliized, standard system for reporting gear issues and issuing service bulletins if necessary.

Is having a few more of our friends around a lot longer worth a little less 'fun' and 'freedom' by having enforceable rules and more attention paid to gear issues...Hell Yes......

The real tradgedy is that most, if not all of these deaths were completly avoidable. I have seen people catch cut away mains and I would have tried it till I found out it can kill you, only by someone losing their life. You should lose your licence for a few months for trying to catch a main and everyone should know it.

Skydiving needs to mirror the FAA and the way they approach safety and regulation. They go overboard sometimes, but the fact that we have highly complex machines speeding through the sky at 500 mph filled with gas and people and it is safer than driving to the store says something.

Rules and regulations will save lives. Self regulation has been a disaster. Before the pain of seeing people hurt and dead, I would not have agreed with what I just wrote. Now I believe it beyond doubt.

Flame away.

Mike

[Shotgun 1]

Wow, Mike... sometimes you surprise me.
Edited to say: The only thing I'm not sure I agree with is whether the people who have died or been seriously injured might think it was worth it??? But I don't know, since I'm not one of them....

[Amazon 7]

Quote

Rules and regulations will save lives. Self regulation has been a disaster. Before the pain of seeing people hurt and dead, I would not have agreed with what I just wrote. Now I believe it beyond doubt.

Flame away.

No flames from me.. I have seen 5 people go in over the years.. and each one is an iindelible part of my memory. A couple of them I knew well and I can still see them in my minds eye. Since coming back to the sport I have heard of a few people I have met.. I try not to open the incidents forum... always afraid its someone I knew. At Lost Prarie I met some wonderful young women and I initiated a few into the Pink Mafia. There was another small group who hung out over at the PD tent and around the other reps from Aerodyne etc. I talked with them and we made plans to do some initiations at Chicks Rock next month. I did not know them well but they were fellow skysisters.. there at the boogie having fun. Yesterday.. not knowing the name Adria that well I opened up that thread and saw her picture.. and... once again my heart sank. I think she was one of the women I was talking to there.

Things happen in this sport..... even if you do everything right. I am involved in Speed Skydiving.. and it scares the hell out of some of my friends. A premature at the speeds I am falling could be fatal. I could also choke to death on some food... you just never know when its your time..
I mitigate the danger of this sport by having VERY GOOD equipment.. and CONSTANTLY run over my emergency procedures. I have had 7 cutaways now.. the last one.. just last Saturday at jumptown. It was my Samurai.. and maybe I could have played with it too long.. but it was starting to spin really fast.... and hence.. made it go bye bye. I feel I can handle malfunctions of any kind... but still.. FECES OCCURS.. and this could have put my friends and family in the same position I myself have been in way too many times as far as I am concerned.

All of us are going to die.. none of us get out of this life alive.... BUT you can do everything you can to be as safe as you possibly can. Please.. to all of you.. use good judgement.. Many of you are young and have a long productive life ahead of you. I know many of you have yet to realize your mortality and are still living in the invincibility of youth. Eventually you will meet your mortality head on. Please be careful and survive that first meeting.

[Frenchy68 0]

I've been in the sport for a whooping 6 months. During which I've seen 2 people go in, one right in front of me. And one badly injured jumper, swooping with a highly loaded canopy and weights around his waist.
I'd like to believe that the frequency I have witnessed will lower. But all of the above happened on pilot mistakes. Totally avoidable. It makes me sick. And I don't even want to start imagining what the families and friends have to go through...

Nick

"For once you have tasted Absinthe you will walk the earth with your eyes turned towards the gutter, for there you have been and there you will long to return."

[skybill 19]

Hi Duck,
Read your post and you are smokin'!!! So you think the BSR's and USPA are a failure? What should we do? Hand over regulation to the FAA? Oh Boy? Right now the FAA regulates skydiving fairly well, Gear is TSO'ed and packed by FAA certificated riggers, Our Airplanes and Pilots are regulated by the FAA, so I guess we need FAA Student, Private and Commercial Skydiving licenses next?? More bureaucracy!! This could be a good thing!! I'm an unemployed Parachute rigger and I could get a Government job with the FAA to help regulate the sport! I'll get $40,000 / yr, med. bennies, 401K and 2 weeks paid vac. and sick daze!! I'll wear my aerospace nerd short sleeve white shirts with the pen protector with 5 different colored pens in the pocket and my clip on tie!! How fun and all I have to do is tell you that you can't jump!!!! If I tell you that you can and you kill yourself then my regulation failed too. So, you can''t jump!! See, you're still alive and not a fatality!!! Sorry if you're strung out from seeing a fatality but I doubt that it was a result of a failure of our "Self regulation!" As Eldridge Cleaver once said,"You're either part of the solution or part of the problem." That goes for all of us!!

This is a dangerous sport, not a game(period) The risk is managable but the stakes are still, your very life!

Try golf. Keep your fish bowl* so you won't get hit in the head by flying golf balls.
*fish bowl- hard helmet eg bonehead or the like.

SCR-2034, SCS-680

III%,
Deli-out

[mirochristie 0]

Quote

The pain and emotion he had was so undescribeable.....I think it really scared me because I can't imagine feeling that...

It freaks me out still....

I know exactly what you mean!
I lost a good friend of mine, once under a low turn. He bounced pretty nasty on the runway, right in front of me and a group of the local skydivers on that Dz. He was my AFF JM also, so you must understand how much I loved and worshiped him. He was my coach, good friend, and mentor and suddenly, of out the blue BAM!

That feeling I felt that day, I no longer wish to feel ever again!
I held his hand, I even spoke to him telling him to his face that he was going to be ok, that the ambulance was coming...when deep down I knew he was already dead.

I couldn`t sleep for months, that feeling kept hunting me, I felt like this huge black shadow was right behing me. Quite disturbing.
I saw death that night when my friend passed away.

I had only 50 jumps, but I kept skydiving.

When you said:

Quote

I saw a guy get decapitated right in front of me in a horribly gory motorcycle accident and it didnt bother me near as much as this.

I understand what you mean.

2 years later, a guy died at our annual boogie. He hit the ground right in front of every single person at the Dz that day. Like a 100 tandems that day! W/ family members, etc.

That guy had a loose toggle, and instead of cutting away, he deployed his reserve. Well, he tried to cutaway but he was so nervous he had his thumb inside the webbing (where the cutaway handle and velcro meet). He was pulling his webbing, not his cutaway handle! (he had his camera on, that`s how we got the datails)

So he had 2 canopies opened. He had a downplane, and SPLAT!

I was worried, I felt strange, sick to my stomach, nervous, but I never felt what I felt the day I saw my friend died.

So when you said:

Quote

The pain and emotion he had was so undescribeable.....I think it really scared me because I can't imagine feeling that...

I know. Been there.

So, thanx for sharing, for taking all that weight off your shoulder, and I totaly agree w/ you in many parts of this thread.

Thanx, I hope many many dz.com users read this too.

Good luck, safe swoops and blue skies!
-Christie

LiquidSky
@(^_^)@

[Duckwater 0]

Yahoo..a flame...kinda...

I am in total agreement that if the USPA, not the FAA, be more of a relegating authority, there would be much unpleasantness and grumbling from the masses....But, people would get used to it......and the 25 people that are going to hook it in next year might not. If you banned hook turns till say even 1000 jumps, conventional wisdom wold say that 1000 jump person would go about learning to swoop much differently than a 200 jumper. Or he might decide it is not worth it and hang on front risers straight in for speed.

Id rather listen to your compalints than the fire trucks and ambulances arriving.

Look at the difference in accident rates between certified and experimental aircraft. In 1999 the fatal accident rate of amateur aircraft was twice that of GA. Granted, many of these are high performance and a lot of the pilots are not all that current but most of the credit has to go to the FAA's oversight in Manufacturing and MX.

I am pissed that I knew there was a probem with slink tabs and I just got mu rig safe and I saw someone die from the same problem....That is not satisfactory.

Mike

[skybill 19]

Hi ya' Duckey again,
I'm back!
As far as USPA being more regulatory, guess again. What would shut down skydiving will not come from the Federal level, try the local level. Back a few years at the Gulch, (Casa Grande AZ) it was the town that shut the DZ down!!!!!!

As for your slinks, why didn't YOU figure out before hand that the tabs can slip out and snag something? General rigging practice is to tack down things that can slip, slide, catch or?? You don't just put something together and "See what happens" when you jump it! Get YOUR rigger's ticket and be part of the solution!! I graduated Navy Riggers A School in '67, FAA Senior Rigger in '71 and FAA Master Rigger in '75.

As far as exp. aircraft having 2X the fatal accident rate of GA aircraft?? I don't know what the stats are on difference between hrs/miles flown was but if performance is a factor lower performance GA over High perf. exp. aircraft well what would you rather crash, a KR-2 or a J-3 cub. Fact is that both aircraft can kill you just as dead!! Oh yes, a great GA aircraft the Beech Bonanza, why is it called a "Forked tailed Doctor Killer??" All these Dr.'s and Lawyers get one when they start making big $$, get their instrument rating then get "uncurrent" wanna fly somewhere IFR and the rest is history!! "Ya gotta stay on top of your sport!" ya can't get killed doing a game. Oh ya' I got my FAA Private Pilot (SEL) in '79.

Well Sport, Shit happens and you think the answer is more regulation? That just means more hoops to jump thru and more bureaucracy!! (Remember my FAA job!!) I like the idea of education and vigalance, that's constant vigalnce... hunt for trouble, find it before it finds you! (slinks, case in point)

SCR-2034, SCS-680

III%,
Deli-out

[Zenister 0]

bah, the point in living is not to save lives, or you could spend your on the couch and there are some who would certainly suggest the government MANDATE you do so...

it amazing how quickly the desire to make the world 'safe' for everyone else appears when someone’s personal experience of another’s pain makes them realize people do DIE and so to avoid having to inconvenience themselves with some emotional distress they’d rather restrain and regulate everyone else’s behavior

…but really there is an easier solution, simply Dont Go to the Dropzone, you wont have to experience death quite so regularly and perhaps you’ll be able to let others continue to experience life without your mandates, restriction and regulations. We've enough of big brother telling you when, where, how and why every where else in life without you bringing it to the dropzone where you willingly take your life in your own hands every jump.

It isnt your place to decide for anyone else if skydiving is worth it, yet simply because you have had to suffer through some sideline emotional pain you make the assumption that is is not for everyone else???? Well it might not be for you, but don’t make that assumption for any and everyone else who jumps or who has ever been injured/killed in the sport.

the self discipline, self regulation and freedom to chose your own fate have always been apart of skydiving...but the key word is SELF, you decide what risks you take, what gear you use, how you fly it and how it is maintained, not me, not your mother, and certainly not any government agency. If your not comfortable with your family living through the possibly ‘untimely’ event of your death, you are in the wrong sport.

The more you try to make it ‘safe’ by governmental mandate and regulation, the fewer of your friends you’ll have around anyway, they will have abandoned you to the control freaks and gone off to BASE.

____________________________________
Those who fail to learn from the past are simply Doomed.

[Duckwater 0]

I wish you woul read my posts before incorrectly stating that I think the FAA is the anwswer. I said the USPA should do it. One, I have met many of the leaders and I would trust their judgement. They all seem to be above board. I got my #'s from the NTSB.
http://www.ntsb.gov/publictn/2003/ARG0302.pdf

How can you deny that the FAA's certification process significantly increases the quality of? I have been flying for 15 years. Most people I know died in experimental aircraft due to a structural or control problem. I had a Certified Pitts S2B and I felt much safer than in a homebuilt S1S. The ONLY Pitts' I have ever seen come apart were homebuilt.

You say I should have known that slink tabs were an issue? Please, I had 50 jumps or something. There needs to be a process in place to analize incidents and act if necessary notifing all riggers and DZ's in a timely fashion.

Believe me, I have no love for the FAA and want them to stay out of skydiving. I dont like there excecution sometimes but the end result, especially in Airline Ops is nothing short of extrordinary. I think the USPA could utilize much of the oversight and communication that the FAA does but do it where people won't hate them.

Mike

[quade 3]

Zen --

Understand that you don't spend -quite- as much time at the DZ as Mike has so you haven't been exposed to as much.

Mike is speaking from his own experiences.

Until you see a half dozen or so people pound in right in front of you, some of them close friends, I don't think you'll understand his point of view.

quade -
The World's Most Boring Skydiver

[Duckwater 0]

Zeni - I agree with your stance on self discipline, to a point. New skydivers are extemely ignorant on so many aspects and there is no real controls on what they do after they get their A.

I liken it to a baby walking up to a stove and grabbing for a pot. ALL of us would grab the baby. New skydivers are just as ignorant as that baby on sooo many things but Canopy flight being the main issue. We seem to let the baby skydiver grab the pot under the assumption he should know better. THEY DONT

I think its nuts that there is no helmet law in TX. The argument is "its my life" but they will be my tax dollars and higher insurance that pays to tube feed the drooling idiot for the rest of his life.

We need rules and regulations to keep us from being idiots. And I keep adusting my estimate on the % of idiots in society upwards. Remember when hardly anyone wore a seatbelt? Putting it on took less common sense than tacking a slink tab. They made it a law, everyone bitched and moaned, but we got used to us an there are people you know that are alive because of it. Was it worth a few tickets, the whining and putting it on every time for the thousands of lives saved?

The 1st thing the USPA needs to do is require a canopy flight course be taken before the A. I am a pilot, I can fly an airplane backwards, but it took Jim Slaton to make me understand canopy flight. I guarantee that if everyone took a class of that caliber, we would see noticeable reductions in accidents.

We are sending these new skydivers out a complex airfoil with little or no instruction. It would be like someone getting a private ticket without ever stalling or doing recovery maneuvers.

My best friend and fellow Skydiver sold his Sukhoi 29 yesterday and is getting a certified Extra 300L because his new company won't insure him in the experimental russian plane. (which has killed 2 friends of mine from structural failure or assembly error)

Insurance companies are usually pretty good at knowing what is risky.

Mike

[Duckwater 0]

Zen,
When I first started skydiving and someone asked for my opinion, I would have said what you said, verbatim.

Be buds with Rich , Adria, Nathan, Eric, people you don't know....and see the horrible reprocussions of small mistakes and all that goes with it. You might change your stance, mabye not. The sickness I have felt in my stomach is greater than the best joy of skydiving.

Mabye I care too much, but I can't help it. Especially when I think there is a fix.

Mike

[chachi 0]

we have general guidelines already in place to assist people in making smart choices. but straight up, have you read every makers panel or warning on every single piece of skydiving gear that says even when using this equipment the way it was designed there is a chance of injury or death? come one, i have no intereest in some American governing body like the FAA running my life. If you fuck up in this sport you can die and kill others, that is the reality. if you seriously have more felt worse pain than joy in this sport maybe you shouldn't be doing it. those people you watched at least died doing what they loved and would not want you to feel that way, instead probably would have prefered you celibrate their life.

[Duckwater 0]

I respectfully disagree with your view. Just because the sport is inheriently dangerous, it doesn't mean we should put no effort into making it as safe as possible. We all spend 1200 bucks on a cypres chances are we will never use. Why not make everyone spend 100 bucks to learn how to fly their canopy? Looking back, that was the best money I ever spent.

And, to make a rule that you need XXX jumps and a signoff by a pro to swoop wouldnt affect most of us, but I guarantee it would save lives and countless broken bones.

The regulations the sport needs would not affect experienced jumpers at all. (The ones that would whine) We are protecting the future of the sport. A new guy off the street hears he cant hook it till 500 jumps would just say OK and not realise that that rule significantly reduces chance of injury.

I also disagree with the notion that we just 'honor memories with a toast and a skydive' and go on. When a plane crashes, they find the exact cause and go to great lengths to ensure it never happens again. I think preventing future accidents is the way to honor. We can toast and tell stories too. Thats the way society should be/is. MADD moms don't burn incence at midnight for their kids, they go out and do their damndest to make sure another Mom doesnt go through losing a child to a drunk driver. Thats honoring memories.

And, I bet there are lots of skydivers that will say their worst sorrow was stronger than their greatest joy. Skydiving is fun...but I have been more "thrilled" doing class 5 rapids. I guess I have never been as 'happy' as you but.....So I should walk away? If we all had to do solos every jump, we would all quit in a week. Skydiving is 100% people....The people are the reason we do this, and we get as many together every summer to make it even better.....We need to do everything we can to protect the reason we do this. I wish there was some way to measure how much less fun the DZ is without the people that are done skydiving.....I want to name names,,,but,,,,,they are all the best people on the DZ...It is big not having some of these people on loads.

The lack of mandatory canopy flight training is appaling to me. Nobody is keeping track of all the injuries from critical to broken ankles but there are lots....Most from ham handed flying. Whuffos always ask "what if your chute dont open" Its hard to explain that the biggest danger in skydiving is landing in a turn..

Don't get me wrong, when someone swoops by me doing 60 and they drag the canopy, I get goose bumps. They also are pros and have been doing it forever. We need to make sure new people know, and fully understand that.

I am not quittng skydiving. I now have an agenda.

Mike

[Zenister 0]

not likely, death is nothing new to me or to skydiving, nor are those who cringe from the reality of it and seek means to protect themselves (their feelings) by 'protecting others from themselves' through restriction and regulation.

Unfortunately I understand his point of view all too well, but again Death isn’t a new thing this week. It just might have been closer this week to some than others and that grief leads people to a belief that doing whatever they can to prevent themselves from feeling so terrible is acceptable and right, when it is simply a fact of life, people die. People in high risk endeavors die more often, and that pain you feel?

Accept it. It is inevitable for us all.

If it really bothers you there are places where people die less frequently, take less risks, and some would say live less as well….golf courses, bowling alleys…. fairly certain you wont lose many friends in those sports, at least not [I]from[/I] the sport itself..…

helmet laws? seat belt laws? sorry they are all wonderful ideas, and have their place. but it is NOT your place to mandate anyone other than yourself use them, same for ADDs, RSL's, altimeters, audibles, helmets, canopies of every size and all types of technical improvements that do make life safer, easier, less idiot proof, more enjoyable and more restrictive, more prohibitive when laws mandate their use.

you want to go to 'great lengths' to make sure it doesn’t happen again? Don’t get on the plane. Don’t live, love and play with people involved in high risk sports, and don’t use the pain you feel when you lose someone as a reason to restrict or inhibit anyone else from doing what they fully understand can be a lethal endeavor, but chose to willingly participate in.

Bureaucracy sucks, more bureaucracy sucks more. It rarely makes you safer, but it always costs you time, money and freedom. Ever been part of an OSHA audit? You think any work really gets done that way??? Several places I’ve worked it would have been MORE dangerous to follow all the regs the way they were written…but you want government oversight in skydiving too??? I work for/with the government, I certainly don’t trust them that much… I’d much rather know I was the one responsible for making sure myself and my gear worked properly…after all I am the one trusting my life to it, not you and not any government agency.

great, now the world has another 'safety crusader' on a mission to save us from ourselves....

Anyone out there that considers me a friend? Don’t go on a safety jihad when I die, and I will die of something, somewhere, eventually, everyone does, so it shouldn’t shock you really… it's so much better just to laugh, cry, dance, play and party, enjoy every moment you have and remember the ones youve had, but really, Keep it off my wave, even if I go in, especially if I go in. Dont make me your martyr, i'd doubt if any of your friend want that either...

no one want to be remembered as the one who inspired the safety police to enslave us all to regulations....for our protection of course, we can't be trusted with our own lives now days......

____________________________________
Those who fail to learn from the past are simply Doomed.

[skyyhi 0]

First off, let me say that I am fairly new to the sport. . .

That being said, I watched a guy bounce in Perris. . .I logged in here and read about my friend, Adria, and pretty much knew it was fatal - the brain injury being too much. . .I watched an AFF 1 students ankle bend in the wrong direction on landing - severely breaking it. I heard about a friend surviving a reserve mal. . .etc

All of this in less than a year - right in my own back yard.

Do I want more regulation. . .no. Why? Because there is enough regulation all ready. At some point people have to be responsible for themselves. Do you know why there is a rise in teenage violence and crime? Because of regulation, there is nothing for them to do anymore. . .insurance for businesses and services that used to cater to teens costs too much and put the businesses out of service. The same would happen in skydiving. The regulations and the costs of enforcing them would put many dz's out of business. It is tough enough already.

And you know what. . .even for the regulation, there will simply be those who will always be rule breakers and get hurt or dead. . .that is a fact of life. I love this sport and definitely wish people would think before doing stupid stuff, but I am not willing to carry the financial burden for those few who are unwilling to listen or learn from those who have been there or gone on before them.

Just my two cents. . .

________________________________________
Take risks not to escape life… but to prevent life from escaping. ~ A bumper sticker at the DZ
FGF #6
Darcy

[oldbastard 0]

Knew this guy once back in Nam, called him Tek - he was always gettn' yelled at for not wearing his helmet. Crazy thing was he'd usually have it on - it was only when the bullets started flying that he'd take it off... said he couldn't aim well with it... couldn't get his head down close enough to his gun. Used to piss our Lt. off something fierce.
Well one morning... after a few days of no action.... we find ourselves right in the middle of a Charlie stronghold.... turned into a free for all with everyone running to find some shelter. I jumped into a damned rice pattie.... with just my arms and head stickn' out from the water... leaning up against the bank.... I'm firing into the bush... where most of Charlie seems to be coming from...
Well I see something running towards the bush out the corner of my eye... it's Tek running straight for Charlie firing off in every direction he jumps into a ditch... throws off his helmet and starts dropping Charlie like flies....
Seventeen minutes later... LT. yelln' for a cease fire.... seems Charlie had enough and retreated deep into the jungle... so we're all standing up - looking around to scope the casualties... I look over at Tek... he's walking back through this pattie to find his helmet...
We found this other guy... helmet on so tight the straps left a mark in his skin... he'd taken shelter behind a pile of wood... This guy was always doing things straight by the book... real straight arrow if you know what I mean... never got in trouble... didn't even smoke...
Course not of that mattered after a bullet entered his skull about a half inch below his helmet... right next to his eye.
Point is... you can be the type who goes through life taking every precaution and that bullet is still going to find a way to kill ya. That's the funny thing that happens on a battlefield. No differnt in skydiving - sure its become safer over the years. Equipment gets better and better... instruction gets more detailed... planes are better maintained.... but in the end, you're throwing yourself out of a plane thirteen thousand feet above the earth and relying on a piece of fabric to keep ya from bouncing... sooner or later that bullet is going to find someone.
When it does all you can do is remember that person and know that person died doing what they loved... we should all be that lucky. And if that thought seems a little harsh to ya... maybe you should think about why your here... why you choose to jump from planes... and if maybe this thing you call a sport is right for you. Cuz in the end there's no sport in jumping... it doesn't matter how tight that helmet is... the ground will find someone sooner or later.

[Duckwater 0]

I still do crazy stuff and I might go a mile without my seatbelt, ...but I wear it most of the time and mathmatically, it is smart to wear your helmet or seatbelt half the time rather than never. Threre are times I forgot my cypress. The added risk to all these is minimal. There would be a lot more tombstones at Arlington if nobody ever wore a helmet in Nam.

Having people out flying high performance canopies and teaching themselves to fly and swoop it is a huge risk. Way more than not wearing a helmet for a while. The Army yelled at your fellow soldier for taking a minor risk. Why wouldnt we do the same for our fellow Skydivers for taking a huge one?

And, jumping out of a plane is not why I skydive. It is the people, it is for everybody.

[kallend 1,625]

Quote

As for whether skydiving is 'worth it'....Well, yes and no....In hindsight, for people that are hurt or dead, hell no it wasnt. But we can't live in fear of unknowns and "what if's". We CAN control the controllable.
Regulate wingloading, canopy types, currency, prohibit swooping until at least a checkout by a Pro. Have centraliized, standard system for reporting gear issues and issuing service bulletins if necessary

I would like to see some hard data suggesting that these regulations would achieve anything before handing over any control to the FAA.

"I'm from the government and I'm here to help you".

...

The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one.

[skybill 19]

Hi Duckey Dude,
Rant and Rant some more. Are you going to run for Conference Director or National Director or both? Try to get involved with the FAA, if they won"t hire you, then just start reporting all these dificiencies to them and let the pot stew!! Write letters to town councils to outlaw hook turns at the local airport (work at the grass roots level) Start pulling ripcords on people you consider unsafe. Go to PIA Symposium and tell your story!! Start writing letters to the USPA Staff demanding more action and regulations!!

Quite frankly, I like things the way they are! The USPA is doing a good job. The Industry (PIA) is doing a good job. I support USPA , the Parachute industry and the sport. I've worked in the Parachute industry all my life from the grass roots DZ level, Military and on to Aerospace Parachutes. Everyone at least that I know of is trying to minimize the "Risk" gap and or develop the "better mouse trap!" Generally, safety comes with a lot of hard work! There's nothing easy about it and you are not going to get it by demand or over night.

You have your agenda, go for it. Let's see how far you get.

SCR-2034, SCS-680

III%,
Deli-out

[billvon 2,400]

>What should we do? Hand over regulation to the FAA?

No! Hand over regulation to US. (the USPA that is.)

>Sorry if you're strung out from seeing a fatality but I doubt that it
>was a result of a failure of our "Self regulation!"

Well, sure it was. The answer is not FAA regulation but better USPA regulation, at least of newer jumpers. Several of us (Hooknswoop, myself, Kallend and a few others) collaborated a while back to come up with a proposal for USPA regulation, as has been discussed before.

[Jen1129 0]

Quote

I hear a sound I never want to hear again from the guy packing his chute right next to me. Melanie was telling him that it was his wife in the accident.

I can't imagine how anyone could read that without being affected by it.

I was touched by Adria's death. I did not know her, and I won't claim emotional attachment from the fact that we jumped at the same dropzone or I may have sat next to her on a load. I was touched because I am her age, and I can only imagine what my family would have felt if that happened to me.

In my opinion, those who think "If I'm gonna die, at least I'm gonna die doing something aaaaawesome!" don't realize how many people would be hurt, and how badly, if that happened. And it gives the rest of us a bad name... those of us who plan to do everything in our power to make sure it doesn't happen to us.

Yeah, I could have a total malfunction. I could get hit by a truck. But I am doing everything I can to make sure I don't become one of those completely avoidable fatalities. Since I am a 100-jump wonder, that means I listen to my instructors about gear choices, about when not to get on a load if the winds are high, about why I shouldn't jump a camera anytime soon.

Some of us do listen. I have taken a canopy class, and next time I go to the DZ I am going to do some hop and pops and practice flat turns and landing accuracy. Hey, I want to take my grandkids to the dropzone someday to watch me jump... and I'm 26.

Regulation or no (and I'm too inexperienced to have a qualified opinion on that subject), those who have seen people get hurt or killed too many times do have an effect on some of us... and we do listen.

[VectorBoy 0]

Quote

>What should we do? Hand over regulation to the FAA?

No! Hand over regulation to US. (the USPA that is.)

>Sorry if you're strung out from seeing a fatality but I doubt that it
>was a result of a failure of our "Self regulation!"

Well, sure it was. The answer is not FAA regulation but better USPA regulation, at least of newer jumpers.

Who is gonna "air boss" it ? Not every DZ has some one watching skies all of the time. Some times that person is busy prepping students or tandems, cleaning toilets or getting a replacement aircraft for the one that went down for maintenance minutes ago.

Is that person gonna ground a new jumper for what they presume was swooping into face plant in the mud landing ( arrival) despite the fact that it was a botched intended regular performance landing? This could be very subjective task. Are they going to set aside the time to coach and teach every suspected dead guy in training on the proper skills and techniques? Is all of this gonna cut into the ability to perform the other tasks at the DZ enough to warrent recouping these costs in other ways?

If we do ALL of this we still will have done nothing for the jumper that has been around for years or decades and has many thousands of jumps and a proven saftey record but still may have a fataly tragic weekend. And this last portion does make up an important percentage of the fatalities.

You are the USPA, you regulate YOU and don't fail your life may depend on that.

[skybill 19]

Hi BillyV,
I concur that USPA is the way to go and NOT the FAA. As I said, safety is a lot of hard work. You guys are doing something positive and how's it going? Any progress being made? Hopefully your efforts will be significant.
Guess again if you think I want the Feds to get involved!!
Like Duckey, I too have unfortunately been around at a fatality, not cool at all!! But what can you do? The best thing is to make an example of your self and DON'T GO IN!!!!!!!!!!! I don't know who's next but I sure as hell am going to try my damnedest for it not to be me (or anybody else if I can help it!)

SCR-2034, SCS-680

III%,
Deli-out