SBS 0 #26 September 4, 2004 I am not clear on how this would be a financial burden on us. People pay thousands to get into this sport, and are trained little or none on canopy control. How would it financially hurt us or our sport to have them tack on $100 or $200 for canopy control training? We do water training for our B license...how many of us will ever actually need that? 100% of us land on 100% of our skydives, and canopy control just falls by the wayside. People don't have to die. It sickens me to hear attitudes of people who talk about it "just being part of the sport". WHY??? Yeah, people are going to die, but if there is anything that we can do to help prevent it, why not do it? Knowing that Adria was doing what she loved to do doesn't make me miss her any less, and it's not going to bring her back to her family. The only reason that I am alive today is because Jack Gramley in Perris told me that if I didn't take a canopy course that I would be grounded from jumping. Did it make me happy? No. Did I think I really needed it? Maybe. But the bottom line is that it is the best money and time that I ever spent. Here's the problem that I see...government and agencies like the USPA generally stay out of things until we demonstrate that we are too stupid to be able to "handle ourselves". They have left the regulation up to us for a long time, and we have seemingly told them time after time that we can't do something as simple as picking the size and type canopy that is appropriate for our experience. Everytime someone says something bad about skydiving, I point out that only 30 people or so die each year out of millions of jumps. From USPA's point of view, what if we could nearly cut that in half? 15 people a year...our friends, our family, us. Let's be real...we know that people will die skydiving. I don't want to die. I don't want my friends to die. We can't just write it off to it being part of the sport...we need to learn lessons, impliment changes, and help to solve the problem. As much as I hate to speak on behalf of more legislation, I would be willing to pay a hundred bucks and take an extra test or two to have my friend back, and to give people's children back to them who they have lost because of preventable situations. There is a problem, we're not fixing it, and it's sure not going to fix itsself...we have tried. How many people would buckle their seatbelt if it wasn't a law? How many lives has it saved since they made it a law? Again, something simple, and a piece of legislation that doesn't seem like it would be necessary, but something that has saved and will continue to save lives. -S_____________ I'm not conceited...I'm just realistic about my awesomeness... Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
JRock 0 #27 September 4, 2004 I would first like to say that I really enjoyed skydiving. It is a wonderful experience that I wish everyone could try once. Ok, Here is my stance..... Ask yourself this question. If you have a mal or something goes terribly wrong... You are headed towards the ground and you are about to impact.. you know you are going to die....Was it worth it? For two years my answer to that question was Yes. Now it is No. Guess what... I quit jumping. People...skydiving is a choice. You either accept the risk for what you are about to do or you don't. Period. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
SBS 0 #28 September 4, 2004 I keep seeing the same thing, over and over..."It's the risks of the sport." IT'S NOT!!! This is not the same as having a double mal. This is preventable. Being involved in a sport that is inherently more dangerous than the average does not give us the right to do whatever we want to do, and then write it off to being the issue of the sport. We cause this, not skydiving. This is our issue, not something that we should just shrug off to, "shit happens." Again, I go back to the seatbelts. When someone doesn't put their seatbelt on and flys through a windshield, is that the fault of the car, or the act of driving? No, it was something that was preventable, and the cause of someone not doing what they were told would prevent the outcome of the situation. -S_____________ I'm not conceited...I'm just realistic about my awesomeness... Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
VectorBoy 0 #29 September 5, 2004 QuoteI keep seeing the same thing, over and over..."It's the risks of the sport." IT'S NOT!!! This is not the same as having a double mal. This is preventable.Quote Yes it is and here is how. No low turns stop it! I'm talking to you, yeahyou . Stop it, don't do it..... There now you are safer. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites quade 3 #30 September 5, 2004 Quote Yes it is and here is how. No low turns stop it! I'm talking to you, yeahyou . Stop it, don't do it..... There now you are safer. Saying it is one thing . . . would you be willing to lead by example? We are fortunate to jump with some of the greatest canopy pilots in the world – professional skydivers who make a thousand or more jumps each year, year after year, perfecting their skills. They make the science of swooping into an art and with their performances make swooping appear as if it is the natural order of things. Perhaps for them it is. My guess is that for those of us without the years of experience and thousands of jumps devoted to acquiring the skills, it is not. If a person wanted to learn BASE jumping they’d be wise to seek out initial professional instruction, a coach to watch and guide their progression, gear suited to the specific environment in which they were going to be jumping as well as the proper environment in which to make those first jumps. To ignore this is to invite disaster. We need to think about any sort of swoop progression in much the same way. We need to create an environment where swooping is -not- seen as the normal progression for skydiving, but rather the highly specialized and separate part of the skydiving world that it is. My suggestion would be for the more responsible members of our community to stop feeding the beast and stop leading people down this path. If I were a DZO, I'd have at least two specific and separate landing areas; a normal landing area (probably the one most convienient to the packing area) where NO ONE would be allowed to perform anything over a 90 degree turn to final and a high performance landing area (perhaps slightly inconvieniently placed) to give emphasis to the separate nature of this part of the sport.quade - The World's Most Boring Skydiver Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites VectorBoy 0 #31 September 5, 2004 QuoteQuote Yes it is and here is how. No low turns stop it! I'm talking to you, yeahyou . Stop it, don't do it..... There now you are safer. Saying it is one thing . . . would you be willing to lead by example?Quote Oh I wasn't talking to me. I personally fear arterial damage and cancer much more than hurting myself under a canopy. I'm not delusional or a canopy know-it-all. I know a few things about flying things but the more I jump the more I learn there is still tons to learn, but I'm also learning more about arterial damage and cancer too. I know that I could be floating along at 100 feet, my canopy could collapse and I plummet to my death based on nothing more than the characteristics of the air it was near for a second. I except canopy shenanigans for what they are. A very personal decision to increase the risk of an already dangerous skydive exponentially. Mitigated with experience, skill, knowledge, wisdom an a hefty dose of luck but still very dangerous. To engage successfully you need those five items in spades. Lacking in some you need much more of the others. And since there isn't a capability dipstick supplied by the canopy manufacturer, its difficult to gage whether or not you got what it takes to do it. Hence conservatism, Its what the manufacturer recommends. Its how I need to approach this. If I femured or worse jumpers will still jump, teams will still train and the turbines will still turn. After all I let us down not anybody else. I except that. For all of the people that demand a change in the status quo of canopy accidents, would they be willing to lead by example? Or do they want somebody else to do this work for them? Kinda like they wash their hands of it. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites quade 3 #32 September 5, 2004 Quote For all of the people that demand a change in the status quo of canopy accidents, would they be willing to lead by example? Or do they want somebody else to do this work for them? Kinda like they wash their hands of it. But this is precisely my point. Everytime somebody swoops in front of a skydiver with low experience they create an atmosphere that tells the newbie "Wanna be one of the 'real' skydivers? Do this." I think that's just wrong. What I think we should be telling them is, "After years of training and experience; if you slowly prove yourself capable, then you -might- think of getting the training and practice to do this completely different thing that's -way- more dangerous than 'simply' hurling yourself at a planet at 120 mph. It's an entire order of magnitude more dangerous and most normal skydivers wouldn't even consider it." So, I guess what I'm asking you, Glen, is would you be willing to lead by example and refrain from swooping in front of the newbies and to take it over to the Pond? BTW, this is a rhetorical question and you don't actually have to answer either on-line, via PM or even to me at all. Just something for folks to consider.quade - The World's Most Boring Skydiver Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Duckwater 0 #33 September 5, 2004 QuoteFor all of the people that demand a change in the status quo of canopy accidents, would they be willing to lead by example? Or do they want somebody else to do this work for them? Kinda like they wash their hands of it. The examples are there. Watch Quade, Domenico, even mild swoopers like Obrien...All world class skydivers. They fly with the same precision and skill, with much larger margin for error. You never have to swoop. But people LOVE speed. New skydiver sees, and hears Team Beendoinitforever swooping by him at mach 1. Who wouldn't want to do that? I would love to be able to swoop 450'. It is exciting as hell. I honestly don't think there is a way to keep young, especially dudes, from wanting to swoop as fast as they can and perhaps shunning advice because of the need to look cool. So, what do we do? We can't ask people who do it safely to stop, and logistically another landing area would be implausable. I don't know if ther could be a shift in attitude that "conservative is cool"...Testostarone overrides Judgement more often than not and we have to realize that. Still, try to sell the Paul Quade approach to any jumper with more sense than balls. In canopy class, we need to give these future swoopers ALL the info. Show them pictures of a compound femur and tell him it is likely,, show them how the smallest error can be disasterous.Then, if the balls are still dominant.... Show them a progression to swooping. Front risers, 90 carves...180 carves...be smooth. If you gotta dig, you f'ed up.... There is so much to swooping a class is essential. And, you will get so much better, so much faster with training, just like coaching jumps. I am not anti swooping at all. I actually love doing it. But the dangers need to be related to all newbies and proper training given. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Zenister 0 #34 September 5, 2004 Quote much larger margin for error. pretty much required by the heavy camera sets up don’t you think?? but what is an 'acceptable margins of error' will differ for every individual. QuoteYou never have to swoop.....you will get so much better, so much faster with training, just like coaching jumps....proper training is out there, more people are flying high performance canopies successfully than not, its up to every jumper to seek that next level of training, we don’t need more regulation to make it mandatory any more than we need to make swooping or skydiving mandatory. Its a decision you make for yourself. the training is certainly available more so than ever before as the demand for it increases...but mistakes, and accidents will still occur. QuoteChris Needles, executive director of the United States Parachute Association in Virginia, the death of a sky diver highlights the sport's potential danger, but fatalities are rare. He said there are about 30 fatalities in 3 million jumps a year. 30 fatalities? out of 30,000ish participants? making 3,000,000 (and rising apparently) jumps a year? seems like skydivers are doing a pretty good job of getting trained and jumping safely in rising numbers without a written requirement to dictate the manner in which you they do so once they are licensed. unfortunately high volume dropzones and those who are near them will see fatalities and injuries more frequently.....as a result of increased volume, and which makes each death no less painful to those near it....____________________________________ Those who fail to learn from the past are simply Doomed. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites VectorBoy 0 #35 September 5, 2004 BTW, this is a rhetorical question and you don't actually have to answer either on-line, via PM or even to me at all. Just something for folks to consider. Most sports heros, even extreme sports, have practitioners that want to be like them. Young golfers ( hell even old ones )want to be like Tiger but so what thats boring. Young surfers are gonna want to be like Laird Hamilton and surf tremendous waves, now more than ever. Extreme supercross just fills stadiums and sells more motorcycles and titanium bone fixtures ( way more than the skydiving world sees ). Nobody is asking their athletes to tone it down. I'm not even sure a warning lable is required on the videos produced by the sponsors. I don't hear any whinning over there. Who the hell are we to ask those that swoop and swoop in the spot light, who do it well. Who have taken their time to perfect their craft. Who, as a result of personal risk and pushing their envelope, have uncovered some jewels of knowledge that may benefit even conservatives under canopy. You could open up a secret area 51 swoop facility and confine swoopers to it..... or you can get the message out that low turns kill, kill you faster if you don't have the skills. Its a long road to get the skills. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites quade 3 #36 September 5, 2004 Quote Most sports heros, even extreme sports, have practitioners that want to be like them. True, but there is a world of difference between Mike Metzger doing a domestation at the X-Games and him doing so in front of a driver's ed class. The X-Games, by definition, -is- a warning lable. Right up front the name alone tells you that this event is the -far- edge of human capability. And, just to make it clear, I'd not suggesting that swooping be banned or hidden, just that we make it -clear- that it is something different and if you want to try it you need to seek out additional training above and beyond what you've been exposed to so far as well as practice and progress in a prudent manner.quade - The World's Most Boring Skydiver Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Duckwater 0 #37 September 5, 2004 QuoteExtreme supercross just fills stadiums and sells more motorcycles and titanium bone fixtures ( way more than the skydiving world sees ). We can agree on that, but they are probably the 2 sports responible for the most bone screw sales. However, most motocrossers start out as pee-wees with dad running behind their 50 while they run up hills, then they gst an 80 at 12, a 125 at 15. They dont do (or attempt) triples until they are YEARS into the sport. There is a natural progression in motocross and it is a logical one to follow. Not so in swooping. Untrained baby swoopers would be the equivalent of someone who has never rode motox attempting a triple. And to PROVE im not some safety Nazi, I let my good buddy ride my KX 250 at the track. He used to be a VERY good amateur motocross rider, sponsorship and everything. 5 years ago. Very little riding since. I had my hesitations but he DID have the basis of knowlede to make an educated decision. He looped out of a triple, and went feet first into the face of the 3rd. When they cut his (my) boots off, his feet fell limp and the multiple compounds bled like crazy. I got go call his fiance and mom to give them the news. Hearing the doctor tell us they might have to amputate made me actually barf. Anyway, a bizzillion surgeries and dollars later (no insurance) the is able to hobble around on fused ankles with a cane. And, hearing him scream in pain for months whille his pulverised legs grew back kinda sucked too. He had the experience, not the currency. Just as important. I let him ride it again after he got healed a bit (no jumpos of course) but his wife was sure pissed. Look at his legs and think about ability and currency next time you do somthing crazy. His one bad decision has serious life long consequences. Mike Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites MakeItHappen 15 #38 September 5, 2004 Quote I had the SAME malfunction that killed this lady a month before...I cut away....I went to the loft and Larry tacked my slinks and installed elastic to hold my excess. Common sense says that loose lines and tabs sticking out is not good. Why are there rigs out there today with loose slinks? This killed someone! I had no idea this was a good idea...It should be mandatory! So should hard riser inserts. I could write a long novel in reply to your posts. I hope to keep this to a shorter novella. First off - this jumper, Jan Chandler, my friend, someone I knew and had jumped with did not die because a brake line got caught on a Slink tab. Secondly, Jan had the same malfunction about a month earlier and cutaway and pulled her reserve to complete a successful skydive. Thirdly, a jumper that was on the dive a month earlier with Jan told me directly that Jan was teased by the 'vastly more experienced jumpers' about cutting away from a 'malfunction' that could be 'fixed'. Fourthly(?), Jan decided to not execute emergency procedures by her decision altitude (whatever that was - assume 1800 feet or there abouts) or she lost altitude awareness during that part of her descent. Fifthly(?), Jan was definitely in a state of loss and total unawareness of her altitude when she was close to the ground. Her canopy had one stowed brake line and one released brake line at the time of her landing. This configuration can be landed safely with proper brake and riser inputs and a really good PLF. Since I knew Jan and knew of her jumping experience, I believe that if Jan knew she was 50 feet off the deck, she would have taken life-saving actions and performed appropriate canopy inputs that would have salvaged the landing. Since she did not do this, I conclude that she lost altitude awareness under her lame canopy. This is very easy to do. A jumper looks up to the canopy to try and fix something. The jumper does not check the ground or an altimeter often enough and whammo-bammo - the ground appears. I knew Jan well enough to know that she was intelligent and a pro-active person. She was also a pilot and had additional visuals from that aspect of her life. I know that if she had looked at her altimeter or the ground when she was under 1000 feet AGL that she would have responded with canopy control actions that would have saved her life. Apparently, she never had that altitude awareness under 1K or even at the higher end at 1,800 feet. She got distracted by a toggle hang-up. Jan Chandler died because she did not execute proper emergency procedures for a canopy that did not exhibit proper handling characteristics by her decision altitude and/or complete loss of altitude awareness under a lame, but could be controlled into a safe landing, canopy at lower altitudes. The specific problem of a brake line hung up in a Slink is really immaterial. It could have been the brake line half-hitching around a glove finger-tip that could produce the same scenario. For you to say (in effect) that loose Slinks ought to be banned by some regulation misses the mark in how to prevent these types of fatalities. Tacked Slinks will reduce the probability of this happening. But did you know that the Slink should only be tacked to one side of the riser - not though the riser? Someone that has Slinks tacked through both risers may see a toggle hang up when the tacking breaks. Just last weekend, someone asked me about Jan's riser and brake stowage problem. [I got first-hand info from the rigger that inspected Jan's equipment, so I definitely know how the brake line was stowed and how it hung up on the Slink.] This other jumper had her Slinks tacked through both risers, not just one side. The problem with the two-sided tacking is that the tacking cord may see some of the line stretch forces and break. In a one sided tacking, there is no force that is propagated through the tacking. I told this jumper to keep an eagle eye on the tacking for breaking and to ask her rigger to replace it with a tacking to one side of the riser only. Back to the question at hand on how to prevent fatalities. Re-emphasize decide by your decision altitude whether your have a controllable canopy. Execute emergency procedures of cutaway-pull reserve. Many years ago I wanted to 'put an end' to these repetitive deaths. I started Sport Parachutist's Safety Journal. Many jumpers have said over the years that something they read saved their life. This is how you prevent the fatalities and injuries. Write about it and talk about it. Legislation by the FAA or USPA will not and does not work. The guy that went in at Xkeys recently violated a BSR of not pulling by 2K. You think that RULE saved him? No way. Things like Altitude Awareness Survival Tip would have saved him. I really have much more to say about your posts, but do not feel like typing all that in right now. Maybe later. .. Make It Happen Parachute History DiveMaker Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites VectorBoy 0 #39 September 6, 2004 The X-Games, by definition, -is- a warning lable. Right up front the name alone tells you that this event is the -far- edge of human capability.Quote Jumping out of anything other than a burning aircraft is EXTREME. Just ask any wuffo. This is not golf, bowling or table tennis. What do you want, a waiver that says we are going to die, we except this as true and are only waiting for it to happen? The information is out there, the warnings, the facts. 50% of our fatalities are under functional mains. There is a certain snobbery I run into out there on the DZ and these forums that if someone loads their canopy lightly and doesn't do performance turns to a landing that they are somehow safe from harm. Sorry that attitude can kill you quicker than an unintended low toggle whip. The facts are unnecessary injuries and deaths under fully functional flying mains. They are represented by all wingloadings, all experience levels. They may be mostly young males but then who make up the majority of jumpers ( I dunnknow ). If you are a conservative 1000 jump experienced person who does not consistently land accurately and safely get help. You are way behind the curve, a statistic waiting to happen. And shut up about what others do under canopy until YOU are up to speed. When you femur in they are gonna blame the swoopers, not cool! If you are 2000 jump experienced and competent and well behaved skydiver. Who has never crossed the glance of the S&TA for aggressive canopy behavior but want to now indulge in aggressive canopy behavior get help. You should be smart enough to know you need the very best training that you have not been a part of in anyway. At the very least realize that you have missed out on some very good scoldings, informative ass chewings and educational groundings by the S&TA. You have up until now slipped below the radar for good behavior and will continue to go unnoticed until the final day you make a jail brake. If you are a committed 500 experience ( or even less ) swooper who is getting great mentoring and doing brilliantly. Realize this, the odds are stacked against you maybe 50~50, maybe less. You need to be in every canopy control seminar by the pros even if you have to travel to get there. And frequently pay to have a coached jump with a pro. Treat every performance landing as a heavily judged and supervised skills camp, something to learn from. Not as a fun swoop&chug. In fact get mentoring for every jump. When knowledgeable people tell you to back off LISTEN! You will not be as good as the mentor until you get into the ball park of their jump numbers. They have more time evaluating a single canopy than you have entire jumps. And you won't have developed their wisdom of when to just say no and take it easy. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites quade 3 #40 September 6, 2004 Glen, I agree with 100 percent of what you just posted. The only thing I have to add is what I've already posted in this thread. The two are not incompatable.quade - The World's Most Boring Skydiver Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites VectorBoy 0 #41 September 6, 2004 I know Paul. Not everybody is proud of the sports over glorification of swooping and there should be some lead by example I agree. We don't hear the pros or manufacturers crying for regulation. If we polled them they would say Don't downsize and no low turns and get training if available. Its the short and dirty answer until there is in place a widespread canopy coaching and training infrastructure available to most DZs. My problem with regulation is it doesn't work.... without enforcement. In my examples I stated above who all need training. Enforcement would or might trim down the incidents in only the last third example. The second example would be neutral as enforcement isn't an issue with the well behaved, until its too late. And of course the arrogance and snobbery would just continue in the first group and you know they would be all for regulation and enforcement as it doen't pertain to them. They don't swoop they are perfectly safe. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites RkyMtnHigh 0 #42 June 10, 2008 This thread is a thought provoking discussion. I am bumping it for input as to what improvements have we seen since the time of this discussion in 2004. _________________________________________ Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Marisan 0 #43 August 20, 2011 QuoteThis thread is a thought provoking discussion. I am bumping it for input as to what improvements have we seen since the time of this discussion in 2004. In 2011 nothing has changed except for the worse. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites OlympiaStoica 0 #44 August 20, 2011 Since I’ve recently witnessed what I’ve dreaded since the day of my first jump (someone “go in”), I have plenty of thoughts to add to the discussion. However, after reading the OP, I’m rather confused … it starts out talking about the effects of fatalities have on our collective psyche, but then not so subtly morphs into the somewhat political discussion about swooping and why it’s bad for you (as an individual and as a community) ... 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quade 3 #30 September 5, 2004 Quote Yes it is and here is how. No low turns stop it! I'm talking to you, yeahyou . Stop it, don't do it..... There now you are safer. Saying it is one thing . . . would you be willing to lead by example? We are fortunate to jump with some of the greatest canopy pilots in the world – professional skydivers who make a thousand or more jumps each year, year after year, perfecting their skills. They make the science of swooping into an art and with their performances make swooping appear as if it is the natural order of things. Perhaps for them it is. My guess is that for those of us without the years of experience and thousands of jumps devoted to acquiring the skills, it is not. If a person wanted to learn BASE jumping they’d be wise to seek out initial professional instruction, a coach to watch and guide their progression, gear suited to the specific environment in which they were going to be jumping as well as the proper environment in which to make those first jumps. To ignore this is to invite disaster. We need to think about any sort of swoop progression in much the same way. We need to create an environment where swooping is -not- seen as the normal progression for skydiving, but rather the highly specialized and separate part of the skydiving world that it is. My suggestion would be for the more responsible members of our community to stop feeding the beast and stop leading people down this path. If I were a DZO, I'd have at least two specific and separate landing areas; a normal landing area (probably the one most convienient to the packing area) where NO ONE would be allowed to perform anything over a 90 degree turn to final and a high performance landing area (perhaps slightly inconvieniently placed) to give emphasis to the separate nature of this part of the sport.quade - The World's Most Boring Skydiver Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
VectorBoy 0 #31 September 5, 2004 QuoteQuote Yes it is and here is how. No low turns stop it! I'm talking to you, yeahyou . Stop it, don't do it..... There now you are safer. Saying it is one thing . . . would you be willing to lead by example?Quote Oh I wasn't talking to me. I personally fear arterial damage and cancer much more than hurting myself under a canopy. I'm not delusional or a canopy know-it-all. I know a few things about flying things but the more I jump the more I learn there is still tons to learn, but I'm also learning more about arterial damage and cancer too. I know that I could be floating along at 100 feet, my canopy could collapse and I plummet to my death based on nothing more than the characteristics of the air it was near for a second. I except canopy shenanigans for what they are. A very personal decision to increase the risk of an already dangerous skydive exponentially. Mitigated with experience, skill, knowledge, wisdom an a hefty dose of luck but still very dangerous. To engage successfully you need those five items in spades. Lacking in some you need much more of the others. And since there isn't a capability dipstick supplied by the canopy manufacturer, its difficult to gage whether or not you got what it takes to do it. Hence conservatism, Its what the manufacturer recommends. Its how I need to approach this. If I femured or worse jumpers will still jump, teams will still train and the turbines will still turn. After all I let us down not anybody else. I except that. For all of the people that demand a change in the status quo of canopy accidents, would they be willing to lead by example? Or do they want somebody else to do this work for them? Kinda like they wash their hands of it. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites quade 3 #32 September 5, 2004 Quote For all of the people that demand a change in the status quo of canopy accidents, would they be willing to lead by example? Or do they want somebody else to do this work for them? Kinda like they wash their hands of it. But this is precisely my point. Everytime somebody swoops in front of a skydiver with low experience they create an atmosphere that tells the newbie "Wanna be one of the 'real' skydivers? Do this." I think that's just wrong. What I think we should be telling them is, "After years of training and experience; if you slowly prove yourself capable, then you -might- think of getting the training and practice to do this completely different thing that's -way- more dangerous than 'simply' hurling yourself at a planet at 120 mph. It's an entire order of magnitude more dangerous and most normal skydivers wouldn't even consider it." So, I guess what I'm asking you, Glen, is would you be willing to lead by example and refrain from swooping in front of the newbies and to take it over to the Pond? BTW, this is a rhetorical question and you don't actually have to answer either on-line, via PM or even to me at all. Just something for folks to consider.quade - The World's Most Boring Skydiver Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Duckwater 0 #33 September 5, 2004 QuoteFor all of the people that demand a change in the status quo of canopy accidents, would they be willing to lead by example? Or do they want somebody else to do this work for them? Kinda like they wash their hands of it. The examples are there. Watch Quade, Domenico, even mild swoopers like Obrien...All world class skydivers. They fly with the same precision and skill, with much larger margin for error. You never have to swoop. But people LOVE speed. New skydiver sees, and hears Team Beendoinitforever swooping by him at mach 1. Who wouldn't want to do that? I would love to be able to swoop 450'. It is exciting as hell. I honestly don't think there is a way to keep young, especially dudes, from wanting to swoop as fast as they can and perhaps shunning advice because of the need to look cool. So, what do we do? We can't ask people who do it safely to stop, and logistically another landing area would be implausable. I don't know if ther could be a shift in attitude that "conservative is cool"...Testostarone overrides Judgement more often than not and we have to realize that. Still, try to sell the Paul Quade approach to any jumper with more sense than balls. In canopy class, we need to give these future swoopers ALL the info. Show them pictures of a compound femur and tell him it is likely,, show them how the smallest error can be disasterous.Then, if the balls are still dominant.... Show them a progression to swooping. Front risers, 90 carves...180 carves...be smooth. If you gotta dig, you f'ed up.... There is so much to swooping a class is essential. And, you will get so much better, so much faster with training, just like coaching jumps. I am not anti swooping at all. I actually love doing it. But the dangers need to be related to all newbies and proper training given. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Zenister 0 #34 September 5, 2004 Quote much larger margin for error. pretty much required by the heavy camera sets up don’t you think?? but what is an 'acceptable margins of error' will differ for every individual. QuoteYou never have to swoop.....you will get so much better, so much faster with training, just like coaching jumps....proper training is out there, more people are flying high performance canopies successfully than not, its up to every jumper to seek that next level of training, we don’t need more regulation to make it mandatory any more than we need to make swooping or skydiving mandatory. Its a decision you make for yourself. the training is certainly available more so than ever before as the demand for it increases...but mistakes, and accidents will still occur. QuoteChris Needles, executive director of the United States Parachute Association in Virginia, the death of a sky diver highlights the sport's potential danger, but fatalities are rare. He said there are about 30 fatalities in 3 million jumps a year. 30 fatalities? out of 30,000ish participants? making 3,000,000 (and rising apparently) jumps a year? seems like skydivers are doing a pretty good job of getting trained and jumping safely in rising numbers without a written requirement to dictate the manner in which you they do so once they are licensed. unfortunately high volume dropzones and those who are near them will see fatalities and injuries more frequently.....as a result of increased volume, and which makes each death no less painful to those near it....____________________________________ Those who fail to learn from the past are simply Doomed. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites VectorBoy 0 #35 September 5, 2004 BTW, this is a rhetorical question and you don't actually have to answer either on-line, via PM or even to me at all. Just something for folks to consider. Most sports heros, even extreme sports, have practitioners that want to be like them. Young golfers ( hell even old ones )want to be like Tiger but so what thats boring. Young surfers are gonna want to be like Laird Hamilton and surf tremendous waves, now more than ever. Extreme supercross just fills stadiums and sells more motorcycles and titanium bone fixtures ( way more than the skydiving world sees ). Nobody is asking their athletes to tone it down. I'm not even sure a warning lable is required on the videos produced by the sponsors. I don't hear any whinning over there. Who the hell are we to ask those that swoop and swoop in the spot light, who do it well. Who have taken their time to perfect their craft. Who, as a result of personal risk and pushing their envelope, have uncovered some jewels of knowledge that may benefit even conservatives under canopy. You could open up a secret area 51 swoop facility and confine swoopers to it..... or you can get the message out that low turns kill, kill you faster if you don't have the skills. Its a long road to get the skills. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites quade 3 #36 September 5, 2004 Quote Most sports heros, even extreme sports, have practitioners that want to be like them. True, but there is a world of difference between Mike Metzger doing a domestation at the X-Games and him doing so in front of a driver's ed class. The X-Games, by definition, -is- a warning lable. Right up front the name alone tells you that this event is the -far- edge of human capability. And, just to make it clear, I'd not suggesting that swooping be banned or hidden, just that we make it -clear- that it is something different and if you want to try it you need to seek out additional training above and beyond what you've been exposed to so far as well as practice and progress in a prudent manner.quade - The World's Most Boring Skydiver Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Duckwater 0 #37 September 5, 2004 QuoteExtreme supercross just fills stadiums and sells more motorcycles and titanium bone fixtures ( way more than the skydiving world sees ). We can agree on that, but they are probably the 2 sports responible for the most bone screw sales. However, most motocrossers start out as pee-wees with dad running behind their 50 while they run up hills, then they gst an 80 at 12, a 125 at 15. They dont do (or attempt) triples until they are YEARS into the sport. There is a natural progression in motocross and it is a logical one to follow. Not so in swooping. Untrained baby swoopers would be the equivalent of someone who has never rode motox attempting a triple. And to PROVE im not some safety Nazi, I let my good buddy ride my KX 250 at the track. He used to be a VERY good amateur motocross rider, sponsorship and everything. 5 years ago. Very little riding since. I had my hesitations but he DID have the basis of knowlede to make an educated decision. He looped out of a triple, and went feet first into the face of the 3rd. When they cut his (my) boots off, his feet fell limp and the multiple compounds bled like crazy. I got go call his fiance and mom to give them the news. Hearing the doctor tell us they might have to amputate made me actually barf. Anyway, a bizzillion surgeries and dollars later (no insurance) the is able to hobble around on fused ankles with a cane. And, hearing him scream in pain for months whille his pulverised legs grew back kinda sucked too. He had the experience, not the currency. Just as important. I let him ride it again after he got healed a bit (no jumpos of course) but his wife was sure pissed. Look at his legs and think about ability and currency next time you do somthing crazy. His one bad decision has serious life long consequences. Mike Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites MakeItHappen 15 #38 September 5, 2004 Quote I had the SAME malfunction that killed this lady a month before...I cut away....I went to the loft and Larry tacked my slinks and installed elastic to hold my excess. Common sense says that loose lines and tabs sticking out is not good. Why are there rigs out there today with loose slinks? This killed someone! I had no idea this was a good idea...It should be mandatory! So should hard riser inserts. I could write a long novel in reply to your posts. I hope to keep this to a shorter novella. First off - this jumper, Jan Chandler, my friend, someone I knew and had jumped with did not die because a brake line got caught on a Slink tab. Secondly, Jan had the same malfunction about a month earlier and cutaway and pulled her reserve to complete a successful skydive. Thirdly, a jumper that was on the dive a month earlier with Jan told me directly that Jan was teased by the 'vastly more experienced jumpers' about cutting away from a 'malfunction' that could be 'fixed'. Fourthly(?), Jan decided to not execute emergency procedures by her decision altitude (whatever that was - assume 1800 feet or there abouts) or she lost altitude awareness during that part of her descent. Fifthly(?), Jan was definitely in a state of loss and total unawareness of her altitude when she was close to the ground. Her canopy had one stowed brake line and one released brake line at the time of her landing. This configuration can be landed safely with proper brake and riser inputs and a really good PLF. Since I knew Jan and knew of her jumping experience, I believe that if Jan knew she was 50 feet off the deck, she would have taken life-saving actions and performed appropriate canopy inputs that would have salvaged the landing. Since she did not do this, I conclude that she lost altitude awareness under her lame canopy. This is very easy to do. A jumper looks up to the canopy to try and fix something. The jumper does not check the ground or an altimeter often enough and whammo-bammo - the ground appears. I knew Jan well enough to know that she was intelligent and a pro-active person. She was also a pilot and had additional visuals from that aspect of her life. I know that if she had looked at her altimeter or the ground when she was under 1000 feet AGL that she would have responded with canopy control actions that would have saved her life. Apparently, she never had that altitude awareness under 1K or even at the higher end at 1,800 feet. She got distracted by a toggle hang-up. Jan Chandler died because she did not execute proper emergency procedures for a canopy that did not exhibit proper handling characteristics by her decision altitude and/or complete loss of altitude awareness under a lame, but could be controlled into a safe landing, canopy at lower altitudes. The specific problem of a brake line hung up in a Slink is really immaterial. It could have been the brake line half-hitching around a glove finger-tip that could produce the same scenario. For you to say (in effect) that loose Slinks ought to be banned by some regulation misses the mark in how to prevent these types of fatalities. Tacked Slinks will reduce the probability of this happening. But did you know that the Slink should only be tacked to one side of the riser - not though the riser? Someone that has Slinks tacked through both risers may see a toggle hang up when the tacking breaks. Just last weekend, someone asked me about Jan's riser and brake stowage problem. [I got first-hand info from the rigger that inspected Jan's equipment, so I definitely know how the brake line was stowed and how it hung up on the Slink.] This other jumper had her Slinks tacked through both risers, not just one side. The problem with the two-sided tacking is that the tacking cord may see some of the line stretch forces and break. In a one sided tacking, there is no force that is propagated through the tacking. I told this jumper to keep an eagle eye on the tacking for breaking and to ask her rigger to replace it with a tacking to one side of the riser only. Back to the question at hand on how to prevent fatalities. Re-emphasize decide by your decision altitude whether your have a controllable canopy. Execute emergency procedures of cutaway-pull reserve. Many years ago I wanted to 'put an end' to these repetitive deaths. I started Sport Parachutist's Safety Journal. Many jumpers have said over the years that something they read saved their life. This is how you prevent the fatalities and injuries. Write about it and talk about it. Legislation by the FAA or USPA will not and does not work. The guy that went in at Xkeys recently violated a BSR of not pulling by 2K. You think that RULE saved him? No way. Things like Altitude Awareness Survival Tip would have saved him. I really have much more to say about your posts, but do not feel like typing all that in right now. Maybe later. .. Make It Happen Parachute History DiveMaker Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites VectorBoy 0 #39 September 6, 2004 The X-Games, by definition, -is- a warning lable. Right up front the name alone tells you that this event is the -far- edge of human capability.Quote Jumping out of anything other than a burning aircraft is EXTREME. Just ask any wuffo. This is not golf, bowling or table tennis. What do you want, a waiver that says we are going to die, we except this as true and are only waiting for it to happen? The information is out there, the warnings, the facts. 50% of our fatalities are under functional mains. There is a certain snobbery I run into out there on the DZ and these forums that if someone loads their canopy lightly and doesn't do performance turns to a landing that they are somehow safe from harm. Sorry that attitude can kill you quicker than an unintended low toggle whip. The facts are unnecessary injuries and deaths under fully functional flying mains. They are represented by all wingloadings, all experience levels. They may be mostly young males but then who make up the majority of jumpers ( I dunnknow ). If you are a conservative 1000 jump experienced person who does not consistently land accurately and safely get help. You are way behind the curve, a statistic waiting to happen. And shut up about what others do under canopy until YOU are up to speed. When you femur in they are gonna blame the swoopers, not cool! If you are 2000 jump experienced and competent and well behaved skydiver. Who has never crossed the glance of the S&TA for aggressive canopy behavior but want to now indulge in aggressive canopy behavior get help. You should be smart enough to know you need the very best training that you have not been a part of in anyway. At the very least realize that you have missed out on some very good scoldings, informative ass chewings and educational groundings by the S&TA. You have up until now slipped below the radar for good behavior and will continue to go unnoticed until the final day you make a jail brake. If you are a committed 500 experience ( or even less ) swooper who is getting great mentoring and doing brilliantly. Realize this, the odds are stacked against you maybe 50~50, maybe less. You need to be in every canopy control seminar by the pros even if you have to travel to get there. And frequently pay to have a coached jump with a pro. Treat every performance landing as a heavily judged and supervised skills camp, something to learn from. Not as a fun swoop&chug. In fact get mentoring for every jump. When knowledgeable people tell you to back off LISTEN! You will not be as good as the mentor until you get into the ball park of their jump numbers. They have more time evaluating a single canopy than you have entire jumps. And you won't have developed their wisdom of when to just say no and take it easy. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites quade 3 #40 September 6, 2004 Glen, I agree with 100 percent of what you just posted. The only thing I have to add is what I've already posted in this thread. The two are not incompatable.quade - The World's Most Boring Skydiver Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites VectorBoy 0 #41 September 6, 2004 I know Paul. Not everybody is proud of the sports over glorification of swooping and there should be some lead by example I agree. We don't hear the pros or manufacturers crying for regulation. If we polled them they would say Don't downsize and no low turns and get training if available. Its the short and dirty answer until there is in place a widespread canopy coaching and training infrastructure available to most DZs. My problem with regulation is it doesn't work.... without enforcement. In my examples I stated above who all need training. Enforcement would or might trim down the incidents in only the last third example. The second example would be neutral as enforcement isn't an issue with the well behaved, until its too late. And of course the arrogance and snobbery would just continue in the first group and you know they would be all for regulation and enforcement as it doen't pertain to them. They don't swoop they are perfectly safe. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites RkyMtnHigh 0 #42 June 10, 2008 This thread is a thought provoking discussion. I am bumping it for input as to what improvements have we seen since the time of this discussion in 2004. _________________________________________ Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Marisan 0 #43 August 20, 2011 QuoteThis thread is a thought provoking discussion. I am bumping it for input as to what improvements have we seen since the time of this discussion in 2004. In 2011 nothing has changed except for the worse. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites OlympiaStoica 0 #44 August 20, 2011 Since I’ve recently witnessed what I’ve dreaded since the day of my first jump (someone “go in”), I have plenty of thoughts to add to the discussion. However, after reading the OP, I’m rather confused … it starts out talking about the effects of fatalities have on our collective psyche, but then not so subtly morphs into the somewhat political discussion about swooping and why it’s bad for you (as an individual and as a community) ... 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quade 3 #32 September 5, 2004 Quote For all of the people that demand a change in the status quo of canopy accidents, would they be willing to lead by example? Or do they want somebody else to do this work for them? Kinda like they wash their hands of it. But this is precisely my point. Everytime somebody swoops in front of a skydiver with low experience they create an atmosphere that tells the newbie "Wanna be one of the 'real' skydivers? Do this." I think that's just wrong. What I think we should be telling them is, "After years of training and experience; if you slowly prove yourself capable, then you -might- think of getting the training and practice to do this completely different thing that's -way- more dangerous than 'simply' hurling yourself at a planet at 120 mph. It's an entire order of magnitude more dangerous and most normal skydivers wouldn't even consider it." So, I guess what I'm asking you, Glen, is would you be willing to lead by example and refrain from swooping in front of the newbies and to take it over to the Pond? BTW, this is a rhetorical question and you don't actually have to answer either on-line, via PM or even to me at all. Just something for folks to consider.quade - The World's Most Boring Skydiver Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Duckwater 0 #33 September 5, 2004 QuoteFor all of the people that demand a change in the status quo of canopy accidents, would they be willing to lead by example? Or do they want somebody else to do this work for them? Kinda like they wash their hands of it. The examples are there. Watch Quade, Domenico, even mild swoopers like Obrien...All world class skydivers. They fly with the same precision and skill, with much larger margin for error. You never have to swoop. But people LOVE speed. New skydiver sees, and hears Team Beendoinitforever swooping by him at mach 1. Who wouldn't want to do that? I would love to be able to swoop 450'. It is exciting as hell. I honestly don't think there is a way to keep young, especially dudes, from wanting to swoop as fast as they can and perhaps shunning advice because of the need to look cool. So, what do we do? We can't ask people who do it safely to stop, and logistically another landing area would be implausable. I don't know if ther could be a shift in attitude that "conservative is cool"...Testostarone overrides Judgement more often than not and we have to realize that. Still, try to sell the Paul Quade approach to any jumper with more sense than balls. In canopy class, we need to give these future swoopers ALL the info. Show them pictures of a compound femur and tell him it is likely,, show them how the smallest error can be disasterous.Then, if the balls are still dominant.... Show them a progression to swooping. Front risers, 90 carves...180 carves...be smooth. If you gotta dig, you f'ed up.... There is so much to swooping a class is essential. And, you will get so much better, so much faster with training, just like coaching jumps. I am not anti swooping at all. I actually love doing it. But the dangers need to be related to all newbies and proper training given. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Zenister 0 #34 September 5, 2004 Quote much larger margin for error. pretty much required by the heavy camera sets up don’t you think?? but what is an 'acceptable margins of error' will differ for every individual. QuoteYou never have to swoop.....you will get so much better, so much faster with training, just like coaching jumps....proper training is out there, more people are flying high performance canopies successfully than not, its up to every jumper to seek that next level of training, we don’t need more regulation to make it mandatory any more than we need to make swooping or skydiving mandatory. Its a decision you make for yourself. the training is certainly available more so than ever before as the demand for it increases...but mistakes, and accidents will still occur. QuoteChris Needles, executive director of the United States Parachute Association in Virginia, the death of a sky diver highlights the sport's potential danger, but fatalities are rare. He said there are about 30 fatalities in 3 million jumps a year. 30 fatalities? out of 30,000ish participants? making 3,000,000 (and rising apparently) jumps a year? seems like skydivers are doing a pretty good job of getting trained and jumping safely in rising numbers without a written requirement to dictate the manner in which you they do so once they are licensed. unfortunately high volume dropzones and those who are near them will see fatalities and injuries more frequently.....as a result of increased volume, and which makes each death no less painful to those near it....____________________________________ Those who fail to learn from the past are simply Doomed. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
VectorBoy 0 #35 September 5, 2004 BTW, this is a rhetorical question and you don't actually have to answer either on-line, via PM or even to me at all. Just something for folks to consider. Most sports heros, even extreme sports, have practitioners that want to be like them. Young golfers ( hell even old ones )want to be like Tiger but so what thats boring. Young surfers are gonna want to be like Laird Hamilton and surf tremendous waves, now more than ever. Extreme supercross just fills stadiums and sells more motorcycles and titanium bone fixtures ( way more than the skydiving world sees ). Nobody is asking their athletes to tone it down. I'm not even sure a warning lable is required on the videos produced by the sponsors. I don't hear any whinning over there. Who the hell are we to ask those that swoop and swoop in the spot light, who do it well. Who have taken their time to perfect their craft. Who, as a result of personal risk and pushing their envelope, have uncovered some jewels of knowledge that may benefit even conservatives under canopy. You could open up a secret area 51 swoop facility and confine swoopers to it..... or you can get the message out that low turns kill, kill you faster if you don't have the skills. Its a long road to get the skills. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
quade 3 #36 September 5, 2004 Quote Most sports heros, even extreme sports, have practitioners that want to be like them. True, but there is a world of difference between Mike Metzger doing a domestation at the X-Games and him doing so in front of a driver's ed class. The X-Games, by definition, -is- a warning lable. Right up front the name alone tells you that this event is the -far- edge of human capability. And, just to make it clear, I'd not suggesting that swooping be banned or hidden, just that we make it -clear- that it is something different and if you want to try it you need to seek out additional training above and beyond what you've been exposed to so far as well as practice and progress in a prudent manner.quade - The World's Most Boring Skydiver Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Duckwater 0 #37 September 5, 2004 QuoteExtreme supercross just fills stadiums and sells more motorcycles and titanium bone fixtures ( way more than the skydiving world sees ). We can agree on that, but they are probably the 2 sports responible for the most bone screw sales. However, most motocrossers start out as pee-wees with dad running behind their 50 while they run up hills, then they gst an 80 at 12, a 125 at 15. They dont do (or attempt) triples until they are YEARS into the sport. There is a natural progression in motocross and it is a logical one to follow. Not so in swooping. Untrained baby swoopers would be the equivalent of someone who has never rode motox attempting a triple. And to PROVE im not some safety Nazi, I let my good buddy ride my KX 250 at the track. He used to be a VERY good amateur motocross rider, sponsorship and everything. 5 years ago. Very little riding since. I had my hesitations but he DID have the basis of knowlede to make an educated decision. He looped out of a triple, and went feet first into the face of the 3rd. When they cut his (my) boots off, his feet fell limp and the multiple compounds bled like crazy. I got go call his fiance and mom to give them the news. Hearing the doctor tell us they might have to amputate made me actually barf. Anyway, a bizzillion surgeries and dollars later (no insurance) the is able to hobble around on fused ankles with a cane. And, hearing him scream in pain for months whille his pulverised legs grew back kinda sucked too. He had the experience, not the currency. Just as important. I let him ride it again after he got healed a bit (no jumpos of course) but his wife was sure pissed. Look at his legs and think about ability and currency next time you do somthing crazy. His one bad decision has serious life long consequences. Mike Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
MakeItHappen 15 #38 September 5, 2004 Quote I had the SAME malfunction that killed this lady a month before...I cut away....I went to the loft and Larry tacked my slinks and installed elastic to hold my excess. Common sense says that loose lines and tabs sticking out is not good. Why are there rigs out there today with loose slinks? This killed someone! I had no idea this was a good idea...It should be mandatory! So should hard riser inserts. I could write a long novel in reply to your posts. I hope to keep this to a shorter novella. First off - this jumper, Jan Chandler, my friend, someone I knew and had jumped with did not die because a brake line got caught on a Slink tab. Secondly, Jan had the same malfunction about a month earlier and cutaway and pulled her reserve to complete a successful skydive. Thirdly, a jumper that was on the dive a month earlier with Jan told me directly that Jan was teased by the 'vastly more experienced jumpers' about cutting away from a 'malfunction' that could be 'fixed'. Fourthly(?), Jan decided to not execute emergency procedures by her decision altitude (whatever that was - assume 1800 feet or there abouts) or she lost altitude awareness during that part of her descent. Fifthly(?), Jan was definitely in a state of loss and total unawareness of her altitude when she was close to the ground. Her canopy had one stowed brake line and one released brake line at the time of her landing. This configuration can be landed safely with proper brake and riser inputs and a really good PLF. Since I knew Jan and knew of her jumping experience, I believe that if Jan knew she was 50 feet off the deck, she would have taken life-saving actions and performed appropriate canopy inputs that would have salvaged the landing. Since she did not do this, I conclude that she lost altitude awareness under her lame canopy. This is very easy to do. A jumper looks up to the canopy to try and fix something. The jumper does not check the ground or an altimeter often enough and whammo-bammo - the ground appears. I knew Jan well enough to know that she was intelligent and a pro-active person. She was also a pilot and had additional visuals from that aspect of her life. I know that if she had looked at her altimeter or the ground when she was under 1000 feet AGL that she would have responded with canopy control actions that would have saved her life. Apparently, she never had that altitude awareness under 1K or even at the higher end at 1,800 feet. She got distracted by a toggle hang-up. Jan Chandler died because she did not execute proper emergency procedures for a canopy that did not exhibit proper handling characteristics by her decision altitude and/or complete loss of altitude awareness under a lame, but could be controlled into a safe landing, canopy at lower altitudes. The specific problem of a brake line hung up in a Slink is really immaterial. It could have been the brake line half-hitching around a glove finger-tip that could produce the same scenario. For you to say (in effect) that loose Slinks ought to be banned by some regulation misses the mark in how to prevent these types of fatalities. Tacked Slinks will reduce the probability of this happening. But did you know that the Slink should only be tacked to one side of the riser - not though the riser? Someone that has Slinks tacked through both risers may see a toggle hang up when the tacking breaks. Just last weekend, someone asked me about Jan's riser and brake stowage problem. [I got first-hand info from the rigger that inspected Jan's equipment, so I definitely know how the brake line was stowed and how it hung up on the Slink.] This other jumper had her Slinks tacked through both risers, not just one side. The problem with the two-sided tacking is that the tacking cord may see some of the line stretch forces and break. In a one sided tacking, there is no force that is propagated through the tacking. I told this jumper to keep an eagle eye on the tacking for breaking and to ask her rigger to replace it with a tacking to one side of the riser only. Back to the question at hand on how to prevent fatalities. Re-emphasize decide by your decision altitude whether your have a controllable canopy. Execute emergency procedures of cutaway-pull reserve. Many years ago I wanted to 'put an end' to these repetitive deaths. I started Sport Parachutist's Safety Journal. Many jumpers have said over the years that something they read saved their life. This is how you prevent the fatalities and injuries. Write about it and talk about it. Legislation by the FAA or USPA will not and does not work. The guy that went in at Xkeys recently violated a BSR of not pulling by 2K. You think that RULE saved him? No way. Things like Altitude Awareness Survival Tip would have saved him. I really have much more to say about your posts, but do not feel like typing all that in right now. Maybe later. .. Make It Happen Parachute History DiveMaker Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
VectorBoy 0 #39 September 6, 2004 The X-Games, by definition, -is- a warning lable. Right up front the name alone tells you that this event is the -far- edge of human capability.Quote Jumping out of anything other than a burning aircraft is EXTREME. Just ask any wuffo. This is not golf, bowling or table tennis. What do you want, a waiver that says we are going to die, we except this as true and are only waiting for it to happen? The information is out there, the warnings, the facts. 50% of our fatalities are under functional mains. There is a certain snobbery I run into out there on the DZ and these forums that if someone loads their canopy lightly and doesn't do performance turns to a landing that they are somehow safe from harm. Sorry that attitude can kill you quicker than an unintended low toggle whip. The facts are unnecessary injuries and deaths under fully functional flying mains. They are represented by all wingloadings, all experience levels. They may be mostly young males but then who make up the majority of jumpers ( I dunnknow ). If you are a conservative 1000 jump experienced person who does not consistently land accurately and safely get help. You are way behind the curve, a statistic waiting to happen. And shut up about what others do under canopy until YOU are up to speed. When you femur in they are gonna blame the swoopers, not cool! If you are 2000 jump experienced and competent and well behaved skydiver. Who has never crossed the glance of the S&TA for aggressive canopy behavior but want to now indulge in aggressive canopy behavior get help. You should be smart enough to know you need the very best training that you have not been a part of in anyway. At the very least realize that you have missed out on some very good scoldings, informative ass chewings and educational groundings by the S&TA. You have up until now slipped below the radar for good behavior and will continue to go unnoticed until the final day you make a jail brake. If you are a committed 500 experience ( or even less ) swooper who is getting great mentoring and doing brilliantly. Realize this, the odds are stacked against you maybe 50~50, maybe less. You need to be in every canopy control seminar by the pros even if you have to travel to get there. And frequently pay to have a coached jump with a pro. Treat every performance landing as a heavily judged and supervised skills camp, something to learn from. Not as a fun swoop&chug. In fact get mentoring for every jump. When knowledgeable people tell you to back off LISTEN! You will not be as good as the mentor until you get into the ball park of their jump numbers. They have more time evaluating a single canopy than you have entire jumps. And you won't have developed their wisdom of when to just say no and take it easy. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites quade 3 #40 September 6, 2004 Glen, I agree with 100 percent of what you just posted. The only thing I have to add is what I've already posted in this thread. The two are not incompatable.quade - The World's Most Boring Skydiver Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites VectorBoy 0 #41 September 6, 2004 I know Paul. Not everybody is proud of the sports over glorification of swooping and there should be some lead by example I agree. We don't hear the pros or manufacturers crying for regulation. If we polled them they would say Don't downsize and no low turns and get training if available. Its the short and dirty answer until there is in place a widespread canopy coaching and training infrastructure available to most DZs. My problem with regulation is it doesn't work.... without enforcement. In my examples I stated above who all need training. Enforcement would or might trim down the incidents in only the last third example. The second example would be neutral as enforcement isn't an issue with the well behaved, until its too late. And of course the arrogance and snobbery would just continue in the first group and you know they would be all for regulation and enforcement as it doen't pertain to them. They don't swoop they are perfectly safe. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites RkyMtnHigh 0 #42 June 10, 2008 This thread is a thought provoking discussion. I am bumping it for input as to what improvements have we seen since the time of this discussion in 2004. _________________________________________ Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Marisan 0 #43 August 20, 2011 QuoteThis thread is a thought provoking discussion. I am bumping it for input as to what improvements have we seen since the time of this discussion in 2004. In 2011 nothing has changed except for the worse. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites OlympiaStoica 0 #44 August 20, 2011 Since I’ve recently witnessed what I’ve dreaded since the day of my first jump (someone “go in”), I have plenty of thoughts to add to the discussion. However, after reading the OP, I’m rather confused … it starts out talking about the effects of fatalities have on our collective psyche, but then not so subtly morphs into the somewhat political discussion about swooping and why it’s bad for you (as an individual and as a community) ... Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Prev 1 2 Next Page 2 of 2 Join the conversation You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account. Note: Your post will require moderator approval before it will be visible. Reply to this topic... × Pasted as rich text. Paste as plain text instead Only 75 emoji are allowed. × Your link has been automatically embedded. 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quade 3 #40 September 6, 2004 Glen, I agree with 100 percent of what you just posted. The only thing I have to add is what I've already posted in this thread. The two are not incompatable.quade - The World's Most Boring Skydiver Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
VectorBoy 0 #41 September 6, 2004 I know Paul. Not everybody is proud of the sports over glorification of swooping and there should be some lead by example I agree. We don't hear the pros or manufacturers crying for regulation. If we polled them they would say Don't downsize and no low turns and get training if available. Its the short and dirty answer until there is in place a widespread canopy coaching and training infrastructure available to most DZs. My problem with regulation is it doesn't work.... without enforcement. In my examples I stated above who all need training. Enforcement would or might trim down the incidents in only the last third example. The second example would be neutral as enforcement isn't an issue with the well behaved, until its too late. And of course the arrogance and snobbery would just continue in the first group and you know they would be all for regulation and enforcement as it doen't pertain to them. They don't swoop they are perfectly safe. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
RkyMtnHigh 0 #42 June 10, 2008 This thread is a thought provoking discussion. I am bumping it for input as to what improvements have we seen since the time of this discussion in 2004. _________________________________________ Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Marisan 0 #43 August 20, 2011 QuoteThis thread is a thought provoking discussion. I am bumping it for input as to what improvements have we seen since the time of this discussion in 2004. In 2011 nothing has changed except for the worse. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
OlympiaStoica 0 #44 August 20, 2011 Since I’ve recently witnessed what I’ve dreaded since the day of my first jump (someone “go in”), I have plenty of thoughts to add to the discussion. However, after reading the OP, I’m rather confused … it starts out talking about the effects of fatalities have on our collective psyche, but then not so subtly morphs into the somewhat political discussion about swooping and why it’s bad for you (as an individual and as a community) ... Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
