When to begin wearing booties?

[rehmwa 2]

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I agree with you and Ron...students should show some solid proficiency without the booties before giving them a shot.

As far as mantis...same thing...show some proficiency in the boxman and THEN pick up on mantis.

You agree with me and Ron - proficiency without booties is pretty much aligned with control on all axis (which I said) which aligns well with the A license timeframe - that signoff defines the ability to do safe 2ways. Pete said neither for "newly licensed jumpers" that's behind the curve.

"proficiency" is a subjective term - I'm defining it explicitly - safe control on all axis both linearly, and rotationally

how do you define proficiency?

I pretty much tie the mantis to the booties - it's a single training cycle in my mind - not two separate things - and you step through the skills sets similar to learning boxman.

...
Driving is a one dimensional activity - a monkey can do it - being proud of your driving abilities is like being proud of being able to put on pants

[davelepka 4]

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strike three, i can side slide just fine... its kinda hard to see a newbie from behind unless you have eyes that poke out of the back of your helmet

Much like your eariler posts, you have fully missed the point.

You wanted to select a rig that you thought would protect your pin as you dragged your rig across the floor while 'butt scooting' to the door, when in reality the real solution is not to expose your rig to that type of treatment regardless of the pin protection.

Now you defend your statement by suggesting that an 'out of control' student with booties is a danger because they could hit you from behind. The point you have missed is that any jumper lacking basic directional control (due to lack of skill or adjusting to booties) should not be on anything bigger then a two-way, at which point there is no excuse for you to lose visual contact with the other jumper. If you cannot maintain visual contact, or manuver yourself out of harms way, you have no business jumping with a jumper at that level.

The solution is not to remove the booties from such a jumper, but to more carefully select the type of skydive that jumper participates in. The same lack of control that could lead to a freefall collision presents dangers in other parts of the skydive to all on the jump.

Every skydive needs to have a certain 'average' level of skill to maintain safety. If you have one very low timer dragging the average down, all other jumpers involved need to be that much above average to compensate. Two low timers requires a very experienced jumper to organize and direct such a jump, and even then it's pushing the concept of keeping up the 'average'.

I have tried repeatedly to offer some good advice as to your viewpoints and methods when it comes to jumping, but you seem to dismiss them just like you dismiss everyone elses comments. I have also (for some unknown reason) tried to be nice in doing so, and avoided harsh terms or striaght-up PAs. I would not expect that to last much longer.

Keep in mind that people read this board for the sake of information gathering, and some use it in place of actual training. For this reason we need to be sure that the information presented is accurate and specific so that it cannot be misconstrued. Your continued posting of erroneous information and presenting it as fact is damaging the site as a whole, and presents a danger to those reading and follwing your lead. Just stop. Read, ask questions, and learn.

[Ron 7]

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students should show some solid proficiency without the booties before giving them a shot

We do seem to differ on 'solid proficiency'. I mean very basic ability... Like around 20-30 jumps for the average jumper.

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As far as mantis...same thing...show some proficiency in the boxman and THEN pick up on mantis.

I'd rather the jumper get started in the 'mantis' as soon as possible. I have often started teaching it at 15 jumps and with tunnel have had AFFL1's use it.

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I don't see a need to jump right into either to avoid "developing bad habits". I think Bill was pulling our leg about that.

He isnt. I'd rather coach a guy with 20 jumps in the mantis than a guy with 200 or 2k. It is the hardest thing to unlearn a body position that has worked for 2k jumps and learn a new position.

I had a guy in the tunnel last mth that had 20 jumps.... He is already digging his knees and flying the mantis after 15 mins of tunnel time. A have had t spend hrs on people with 1k jumps to get them to the same level.

"No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

[rehmwa 2]

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I'd rather the jumper get started in the 'mantis' as soon as possible. I have often started teaching it at 15 jumps and with tunnel have had AFFL1's use it.

same here with pre-AFF tunnel prep - I'll teach mantis immediately and these students tend to ace the AFF course better than any other students - so far, zero repeated dives on about a half dozen students in this category - two of them clearly able to graduate early (freefall portion) if they'd have chosen to take that option. FWIW

Edit: now just wait for someone to falsely accuse us of having a position to train AFF L1 with mantis (ignoring the whole tunnel camp thing). This place is getting like speaker's corner

...
Driving is a one dimensional activity - a monkey can do it - being proud of your driving abilities is like being proud of being able to put on pants

[Scrumpot 1]

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...Just stop. Read, ask questions, and learn.

Wow.

This post just brought a tear to my eye. Literally.
Post of the decade to an over-exuberant newbie award props nomination from me, for sure!

coitus non circum - Moab Stone

[labrys 0]

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I'd rather teach mantis to a jumper with 30 jumps any day over a jumper with 2000 jumps with their boxman habits so ingrained in their heads that they have to first unlearn all their habits.

I'm a mantis retard. Every time I try to practice in the tunnel, I end up with grid marks on my face.

Where do you coach? Is 700 jumps too old a dog?

Owned by Remi #?

[billvon 2,400]

>Under your logic you might as well throw a camera on their head to

Yes. Once a jumper is able to safely participate in, say, 4-way, can put themselves where they want to be when they want to be without thinking much about it - they're ready to learn how to do camera for it. Most jumpers take at least several hundred jumps to get to that point.

[popsjumper 2]

Yes, you are right...you said "old" habits. Please forgive an old fart for the brain fart.


Yep, I agree too that the 30-jump range is about average for showing a solid degree of proficiency and that's just about the time we recommend the booties and start them out with mantis.

I believe we're on the same page here. Except for the tunnel references. Obviously, you have the benefit of easy access to a tunnel...you are in the minority.

One can teach anything one wants in a tunnel and not have to deal with safety issues that only apply to freefall. Teaching mantis right from the start is not a bad idea...I would agree that it's a good thing. No boxman to overcome and one gets an advanced technique right up front.

However, I'm not sure that you teach mantis for FJC do you? I venture a No on that and repeat: They need to show a solid proficiency in air skills before going with mantis and booties.

Ok...so what's "solid" mean...I guess, the same as "safe".

Now on the lighter side of Sports....

Funny story:
200 jumps, first time in tunnel.
Coach teaching me mantis.

Standing in front of me, he pulled my hands in and elbows down out of the box, into a mantis style, and let go...they immediately popped back into the box.

Picture going through this 7-8 times...

Finally, he just looked at me and shook his head....looked out the door to the other Coach and shook his head...and drug me over to the door.


BUT! I finally DID get it later!
I'll not say how many attempts it took.

My reality and yours are quite different.
I think we're all Bozos on this bus.
Falcon5232, SCS8170, SCSA353, POPS9398, DS239

[popsjumper 2]

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"proficiency" is a subjective term - I'm defining it explicitly - safe control on all axis both linearly, and rotationally

how do you define proficiency?

I pretty much tie the mantis to the booties - it's a single training cycle in my mind - not two separate things - and you step through the skills sets similar to learning boxman.

Looking past the subjective "safe", I like your definition.

I'm not sure what you mean by mantis/booties being a single training cycle. I'm of the mind of one thing at a time progression.

-arm position (ground)
-arm turns (air)
-leg position (ground)
-leg turns (air)
-arm & legs working together for center-point turns.(ground)
- air practice.

Now, I personally prefer that young jumpers learn these things before putting on the booties.

My reality and yours are quite different.
I think we're all Bozos on this bus.
Falcon5232, SCS8170, SCSA353, POPS9398, DS239

[rehmwa 2]

Lots of stuff now

1 - 700 jumps isn't an old dog for mantis.

2 - Absolutely no mantis in FJC it's not stable (the exception is they are already experienced with it in the tunnel - then a retrain to boxman is likely more confusing than not - let them fly what they are already stable in - but I need to see it, I won't take their word without a reference, video, or direct observation)

3 - pops - I've seen that tunnel learning in camps before like your funny story - love it - one of the most fun students I've ever seen was one of my heros in the sport - thousands of jumps, Master Rigger, AFF Evaluator, tandem master, pilot, etc etc. super nice guy - he was just bouncing off the walls and having a real hard time - smiling the whole time and talkiing about how great it was to learn something new (most old timers bitch about the tunnel not being 'realistic' rather than realizing that the control is just something they never had before and their egos are hurt - this guy is a truly great skydiver in practice and approach - his character is why he's a role model for me, however, this camp and his attitude is another big reason)

4 - I have no issue with your progression if the student is a slower learner or still a bit tight in the air. But, Mantis goes with booties like ice cream on pie. you can teach them separate, but not really any point to that for a typical learner - if they are comfy in boxman, they'll be safe as they have that to fall back on if they wobble too much. Skydiving for jumpers with less than, say, 500 jumps, isn't really about the booties, or the different body positions, etc - it's mostly about comfort, relaxation, and awareness - they'll learn if they stay on those things. If they aren't, you can start taking away variables until they are.

IMH(but opinionated)O

...
Driving is a one dimensional activity - a monkey can do it - being proud of your driving abilities is like being proud of being able to put on pants

[tetra316 0]

Me too but I'm working on it! Sure wish I had invested in some tunnel time 8 years ago.

[Jacked 0]

Come to my DZ and tell as licenced skydiver (26 jumps) not to wear booties.. Students at our DZ do not make decisions on anything inside of the flight parameters. Jump suits are required and none of our student jumpsuits have booties.. I have worked with a couple students that have bought their own jump suits with booties.. I allowed them to jump with them because I was teaching them to fly anyway and in another 5 or 6 jumps they would be licenced and jumping what they want anyway, Best get them on track as quick as possible.. If the student had issues in the air I would not let them fly booties until we worked the issues out.. That is your call as an instructor (Coach cat's) I have had no issues at all with a good booty assisted track from any new skydiver leaving a pack of fun jumpers gaining separation for clean air deployment.. AFF is a completly diffrent story. (IMHO)

The end result is directly connected to the effort applied