Ethics and organ donation...

[Nataly 38]

I just got my renewed UK licence and noticed I had a bunch of new codes on it. Among them was code 115, which I had to look up, obviously. Turns out "115" means I am an organ donor. I never stipulated that I wanted to be an organ donor and I am a little surprise (to say the least) to find this had been decided for me...

I'm not getting into the debate about my personal beliefs on organ donation, but I wonder how ethical it is to just put it on my licence like that without getting my consent. Thoughts?

"There is no problem so bad you can't make it worse."
- Chris Hadfield
« Sors le martinet et flagelle toi indigne contrôleuse de gestion. »
- my boss

[IJskonijn 38]

There's always a relevant XKCD.

Here in the Netherlands, you're only an organ donor if you actively state you are. We have a large deficit of suitable donors...

Personally, I advocate the policy that everyone is an organ donor, with an easy and properly advertised way to opt-out. Honestly, I don't know what the policy on that is in the UK, but if that's the basis, it's not weird to see it appear on a skydiving license (although a more logical place would be your driver's license, since much more people get killed that way yearly).

[base283 0]

But what happens if they (meds) findure a cure for death? "Hey man, I need my eyes back, anybody seen my eyes? I need em. Hey man???."
take care,
space

[Andy9o8 0]

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I just got my renewed UK licence and noticed I had a bunch of new codes on it. Among them was code 115, which I had to look up, obviously. Turns out "115" means I am an organ donor. I never stipulated that I wanted to be an organ donor and I am a little surprise (to say the least) to find this had been decided for me...

I'm not getting into the debate about my personal beliefs on organ donation, but I wonder how ethical it is to just put it on my licence like that without getting my consent. Thoughts

Based on THIS quick Google search, one of the results of which is THIS official website from the UK's Dept of Health, it does not appear that organ donor designation in the UK is done on a presumptive opt-in basis, or "donor by default" as your OP calls it. Rather, it appears that, since ca. July 2011, applicants became required to answer, one way or the other, an opt-in/opt-out question; IOW, they were no longer allowed to simply skip the question.

The logical conclusion leads to the presumption that you may have quickly ticked an answer to the mandatory question without realizing or recalling it. (IOW, "Boobies" would have resulted in your application simply not being processed.)

It's OK; cognition and short-term memory loss actually begins happening to most people at around age 30, so it's not just you.

[ZigZagMarquis 8]

If the "Boobies" option wins out in this Poll, does that mean Nat has to donate her...

[Nataly 38]

I know, I looked this up as well, but it was NOT on my previous driver's licence (from WAY before 2011) and it is on my renewed one. I have double-checked and on the renewal page there is NOWHERE to tick or untick for this option. So again, I am surprised to see it suddenly appear there.

Personally, I am in favour of forcing people to choose, but it should be clear and informed consent - not just appear out of the blue without even asking... It also shouldn't be an easy-to-miss already-ticked box (which it wasn't in my case - there was NOTHING).

"There is no problem so bad you can't make it worse."
- Chris Hadfield
« Sors le martinet et flagelle toi indigne contrôleuse de gestion. »
- my boss

[ZigZagMarquis 8]

Eat lots of fatty foods and take up smoking in protest!

Screw em!!

They won't be able to use YOUR organs if they unwillingly try to make you donate them!!!

[FlyingRhenquest 1]

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There's always a relevant XKCD.

Also a more relevant Monty Python Bit

I'm trying to teach myself how to set things on fire with my mind. Hey... is it hot in here?

[Andy9o8 0]

Apparently UK licence renewal uses a form called DL1R. So, curious to see it for myself, I've done quite a search - and while there are many downloadable UK driver's and vehicle forms available online, interestingly enough the DL1R is not. Apparently one must either obtain a hard copy; or to proceed to the renewal form in the online system, one must first establish an account and then log-in. Which I won't do. So, I guess I'm stuck at this point.

[ZigZagMarquis 8]

http://www.huffingtonpost.co.uk/samuel-walker/compulsory-organ-donation_b_1148385.html

Why Organ Donation Should be Made Compulsory
Posted: 15 Dec 2011

Imagine that tomorrow, through a series of unexpected and unfortunate events involving the collapse of the euro, some desperate eurocrats and a P&O ferry, you end up dying in hospitable. You will probably be looking forward to a quiet end as you depart this veil of tears, dignified in death, etc etc. You would be wrong; the NHS watchdog has called for your doctor to be legally required to interrupt your last moments. Your doctor should, according the National Institute for Health and Clinical Excellence, ask whether after you're dead, he can have a rummage around inside to see if there are any organs anyone else might want. This is wrong. He shouldn't have to ask.

Compulsory organ donation may seem somewhat extreme but every year a thousand people die waiting for an organ transplant. That ghastly number, the number of those who die needlessly, is only increasing. They die because others neglect to do the right thing. Negligence is a crime.

As a society we accept that there are a lot of things the state can legitimately ask its citizens to do; they range from the annoying - not littering, to the angering - income tax, to the ultimate sacrifice of being conscripted to go and die for the country. Compared to these, allowing a pound or so of biological matter to be taken from after you're done with it, is trivial. It's not as if you even knew or cared about what they did for you in life; who knows what a spleen does? What sort of narrow boat sails down the renal canal? The point is that your body is no more yours than your house, your car or your iPhone.

There are three main objections to compulsory organ donation; freedom of choice, religious concerns and the ability of the family to say goodbye. I will deal with them all in order.

Firstly to the: "It should be my choice what happens to my body, it's not fair!" argument. Well, if we are going to bang on about "human rights", then the right to life trumps the right to decide how garbage is disposed of every time. The person dying next door has more of a right to life than you do to decide how to get rid of your body. Furthermore, you don't lay claim to the various bits and bobs that will eventually make up your body before you exist, so how can the same bits and bobs be yours after you've finished existing. How can "you" own anything if there is no "you"?

Some people don't like the idea of organ donation at all, never mind compulsory organ donation, because of religion. When we are all swept up in the rapture on judgement day, there could be a great deal of confusion if various people have got various other people's hearts, livers, spleens and so forth. However, it is perfectly acceptable in these religions for the body to rot into worm food or to be burnt to ash. If god is already turning worm and ash back into humans, he should be able to deal with some misplaced organs. At any rate, these religious believers are a minority - all six major religions care not a jot what happens to the body, it's the soul they're after. If we went around doing things because various small religious sects wanted us to, the world would be a very nasty place indeed.

As for the grieving family, the surgeons tend to do a very neat job nowadays. Quick slit down the middle, whack out any useful organs and sew them back up. Put a shirt on the corpse and mum/dad/brother/sister/family dog wouldn't even notice that the body's organs had been used to save a life. The family can hardly be given priority to the body over a dying child next door.

So, given that organ donation saves lives and given that there is no rational objection to it, it should be made compulsory. It is said that a dead man still lives while the effects of his life are still being felt. This way, if you have a particularly resilient liver or heart, you can live forever.

[Andy9o8 0]

I'm a big proponent of organ donation, but oppose making it mandatory. Consider the slippery slope from that to mandatory cadaver donation for scientific research or to train all the med students and OT majors taking their gross anatomy classes.

Or consider Soylent Green.

[ZigZagMarquis 8]

Or the Affordable Health Care Act.

[JohnMitchell 14]

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Or the Affordable Health Care Act.

Commie!

I enjoyed your logical argument for mandatory organ donation. Unfortunately, it's very hard to sway emotions with logic, isn't it?

Yes, I'm a donor.

[Nataly 38]

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Apparently UK licence renewal uses a form called DL1R. So, curious to see it for myself, I've done quite a search - and while there are many downloadable UK driver's and vehicle forms available online, interestingly enough the DL1R is not. Apparently one must either obtain a hard copy; or to proceed to the renewal form in the online system, one must first establish an account and then log-in. Which I won't do. So, I guess I'm stuck at this point.

It would seem on the paper form there is a section to fill in whether you want to become an organ donor (see bottom of page 5): http://www.direct.gov.uk/prod_consum_dg/groups/dg_digitalassets/@dg/@en/@motor/documents/digitalasset/dg_179053.pdf, although I don't know how up to date that pdf is. I did my request online, and I went through the entire process a second time (right up to confirming payment - which I didn't do) and was not asked at any point (explicitly or implicitly) about organ donation.

"There is no problem so bad you can't make it worse."
- Chris Hadfield
« Sors le martinet et flagelle toi indigne contrôleuse de gestion. »
- my boss

[ZigZagMarquis 8]

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Or the Affordable Health Care Act.

Commie!

I enjoyed your logical argument for mandatory organ donation. Unfortunately, it's very hard to sway emotions with logic, isn't it?

Yes, I'm a donor.

Actually, the link I posted was meant to be informative and not an echo of my own view-point.

I do not think organ donation should be compulsory with surreptitious opt-out methods, if that is in-fact the case in the UK now or a proposal to become the case, but I'm not a citizen of the UK, so, it doesn't affect me.

[Nataly 38]

I agree that A LOT of people *want* to donate but aren't on the donor list and this is a huge problem. I am in favour of forcing people to decide, but not through sneaky methods, and not by obliging people to *remove* themselves from the "default" donor list and not by suddenly putting them on it. Saying nothing does not imply consent.

Donating organs is a great thing, but so is giving your body to science/research (my personal preference because too few people do this and this also saves lives). I don't want this to go into the SC, but if you believe your soul will live in eternal unrest if your body is not buried/burnt/whatever whole, you should not be tricked/forced into organ donation.

Bottom line: transparency is key.

"There is no problem so bad you can't make it worse."
- Chris Hadfield
« Sors le martinet et flagelle toi indigne contrôleuse de gestion. »
- my boss

[Andy9o8 0]

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I'm not a citizen of the UK, so, it doesn't affect me.

Where do you think your "food" comes from?

[ZigZagMarquis 8]

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I'm not a citizen of the UK, so, it doesn't affect me.

Where do you think your "food" comes from?

[ZigZagMarquis 8]

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Donating organs is a great thing, but so is giving your body to science/research (my personal preference because too few people do this and this also saves lives). I don't want this to go into the SC, but if you believe your soul will live in eternal unrest if your body is not buried/burnt/whatever whole, you should not be tricked/forced into organ donation.

My 2 cents, I agree with all you say N@, except, that if the governement gets involved in this... any government... it will get all fucked-up.




Looks like "Boobies" are still out in front!

[Abedy 0]

I am an organ donor. We need to fill in an organ donor card here in Germany. Result, along with several scandals (arising from greed and the shortage of organs available) is a huge need.
AFAIK Austria has a - at least to my mind - much better system: If you do not want to be a donor you have to state it. (Opt-out solution, IIRC)
If anyone chooses not to be a donor, for whatever reasons, that's OK with me; I do not judge. But I think if you do not want to be a donor you should state this expressis verbim.

BTW: I will organise for my body to be totally donated, not only the organs. I mean, doctors-to-be need bodies to work with / practise with. But that's another topic, I suppose...

The sky is not the limit. The ground is.

The Society of Skydiving Ducks

[ryoder 1,384]

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Looks like "Boobies" are still out in front!

They look best when located in that position.

"There are only three things of value: younger women, faster airplanes, and bigger crocodiles" - Arthur Jones.

[ZigZagMarquis 8]

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Looks like "Boobies" are still out in front!

They look best when located in that position.

I agree!

Back boobs aren't very attractive...

[wmw999 2,121]

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Donating organs is a great thing, but so is giving your body to science/research (my personal preference because too few people do this and this also saves lives).

Something to consider is that people who can't donate organs (many illnesses, too deteriorated for organ donation, too old, etc) can still donate their bodies to science for dissection or whatever.

Wendy P.

There is nothing more dangerous than breaking a basic safety rule and getting away with it. It removes fear of the consequences and builds false confidence. (tbrown)

[FlyingRhenquest 1]

Can we have your liver, then?

I want to donate my body to science, but I want them to put a little Alien doll in me so that when they're dissecting me it suddenly pops out of my chest! That'd be awesome!

I'm trying to teach myself how to set things on fire with my mind. Hey... is it hot in here?

[adagen 0]

You cannot opt out. The only options are opt in now, already opted in, will opt in later. And the code is hidden amongst a bunch of other codes relating to what sort of vehicles you are permitted to drive and under what circumstances. That is an entirely unethical setup.

Whether one wants to donate or not, the decision should remain explicitly with the person concerned. There is something tyrannical about unaccountable bureaucrats introducing a process which in effect gives them ownership of the human body. A change of this magnitude should have gone through the scrutiny of full parliamentary debate.

Anne