crotalus01 0 #26 October 4, 2004 is their a manufacturer that makes the quick snaps with a screw lock? i used to rappel, and my main carabiner had a screw lock that prevented any chance of an accidental opening, also ensured that it was snapped completely closed.... As for me and my house, we will serve the LORD... Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
BlindBrick 0 #27 October 4, 2004 QuoteHALO MT1-XX and MC-4 harnesses dangerous for sport jumping? Not in my opinion. You are not about to slide out of one of those harnesses. Also, worrying about quick ejector snaps coming undone is being very paranoid, too. I have never, ever heard of quick ejector hardware "coming undone" on a freefall jump of any type. I've hauled a doctor out to a jumper who had a very bad landing after her almost new, well maintained, fully functional B-12 was undone during a hybrid. I've also seen jumpers grab for anything when an RW jump began to funnel. I jump hybrids and RW, so I atuomatically assume there are going to be hands all over my rig. If an undamaged B-12 can be undone in FF, then the quick ejector with that unsecured external lever can come undone just as easily(if not more so). To me, it's just too big of a risk, but YMMV. -Blind"If you end up in an alligator's jaws, naked, you probably did something to deserve it." Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
atsaubrey 0 #28 October 4, 2004 Guess who's rig is for sale"GOT LEAD?" Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
mjosparky 3 #29 October 5, 2004 QuoteGuess who's rig is for sale Between Chuck, Lou and myself, we probably have more jumps on MT-1XX/MC-4 systems then he has jumps. Your rig is safe and always has been. \ I have B-12 on both my rigs and have jumped them for 28 years. No problems. SparkyMy idea of a fair fight is clubbing baby seals Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
BlindBrick 0 #30 October 5, 2004 QuoteQuoteGuess who's rig is for sale Between Chuck, Lou and myself, we probably have more jumps on MT-1XX/MC-4 systems then he has jumps. Your rig is safe and always has been. \ I have B-12 on both my rigs and have jumped them for 28 years. No problems. Sparky I think I am beginning to get an idea of how certain people at NASA must have felt before losing the Challenger and the Columbia. Some relatively new guys witness near misses and try to tell their bosses that there's a problem. The older establishment is like" We've never had any problems and we have more years experience than you." Next thing you know, two orbiters and crews are gone. I don't want to pick a fight with anyone, but I have witnessed this! Yeah the odds might be relatively low, but a lot of us wear AAD's to guard against relatively unlikely situations, and the FAA has a lot of mandates to cover against things that have a really low probability of occurring. With the ever-increasing popularity of freeflying and hybrids, the odds just keep getting higher. Sadly, I fear that with the community's current mentality that it is inevitable that someone is going to die because their stuff got undone in freefall. You can call me a wet behind the ears Chicken Little if you want, but at least when I read that incident report, I'll know that I at least tried to let people know. -Blind"If you end up in an alligator's jaws, naked, you probably did something to deserve it." Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
mattjw916 2 #31 October 5, 2004 well said...NSCR-2376, SCR-15080 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
SkymonkeyONE 3 #32 October 5, 2004 You guys can believe what you want about what is safe and what is not, but arbitrarilly telling someone that certain equipment is "unsafe" and "not freefly friendly" just shows your lack of knowledge. I personally have over 200 jumps on MT1-XX/MC-4 systems and have performed them with an incredible amount of shit strapped to me and the rig. The only thing not "freefly friendly" on one of those systems is the fact that the main ripcord extends out to the side of the rig, up next to your shoulder. Most people using these rigs for sport use have gone ahead and converted them to throw out (normally BOC) and have removed the O2/equipment wing flaps. The belly band is left on because it's a smart thing to have, no matter how "ugly" some people believe them to be. Bottom line here is that it is a very secure rig. In "ripcord/spring-loaded PC mode" the rig is absolutely safe at any attitude/body position. Now it's possible your personal vanity would preclude you from jumping something like that, but for big guys just starting out they are fine, safe, and proven rigs. More than a couple of dropzones use them as "big boy" student and rental rigs. Another thing: there are not a lot of "used" options out there for VERY big guys. Likewise, there are not a lot of very big guys that are interested in doing anything other than flying on their bellies because doing otherwise means that they would be going too fast for anyone to stay up with them. Once again, think what you want, but don't be spouting nonsense in topical forums with under 200 skydives between the two of you. Chuck Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
airtwardo 6 #33 October 5, 2004 Quote but I have witnessed this! Quote What EXACTLY did you witness? Are you absolutely sure it came undone during the dive" Are you positive it was connected properly in the first place? If fear of having hands all over your rig during a dive is the catalyst for your stated concerns... what about the PUD and cutaway and the reserve? I would think those areas would be compromised much more often than the leg strap hardware, yet I see no widespread reports about those types of incidents. A blanket statement regarding your observation is unwarranted in my opinion. How can / do you know with certainty that a piece of proven hardware is at fault, and not human error? Last weekend I witness a girl doing a face plant on a concrete floor because she tripped trying to get her right leg into the step through leg strap on here parachute harness.... with your logic, should I assume that the right leg strap on all step through harness is unsafe? Or did SHE cause the situation... I have to agree with Chuck & Lou... (AKA "BlueDiamond") That 'unsafe' hardware has been in use for over 60 years... and if it were as dangerous a problem as you state... I'm sure we'd have heard about by now. ~ If you choke a Smurf, what color does it turn? ~ Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Treejumps 0 #34 October 5, 2004 Well said. Perhaps the issue here is that these guys never see b-12s, other than on student gear. Maybe if they knew that b-12s were pretty much standard on ALL gear before 15 or 20 years ago, then they would understand. A little understanding of the sport's (gear) history goes a long way. B-12s do not inadvertantly release, despite whatever you have heard, or "think" you saw. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
riggerrob 562 #35 October 5, 2004 I agree with Chuck. I my obscure corner of the planet, we have a Para-Flite Goliath 340 canopy (civilian version of an MFP canopy) - stuffed in a Telesis container for bigger students. A neighboring DZ has a complete MT1-??? rig for larger students. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
mattjw916 2 #36 October 5, 2004 I was not referring to the gear comments, I was referring to the rest of the post re: the NASA tragedies. I have no opinion regarding B-12 snaps either way, FWIW, I had them on my student Telesis rigs and I didn't have any issues with them.NSCR-2376, SCR-15080 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
BlindBrick 0 #37 October 5, 2004 Quote Are you absolutely sure it came undone during the dive" Positive, Gear was a Mirage that was less than a year old , IIRC. The gear is well maintained and when not in use, the gear is stored in a hard case. The very experienced jumper was also very gear conscious and would snap her B12's a time or two before every jump to verify that they were closed. B12 came undone durig a hybrid jump with two sit flyers and a hanger. Hanger reaches up and grabs all the way through the leg strap and B12, opening it up. There is then a change in relative altitude between the sitfflyer and hanger which causes the now open B12 to come away from the V-ring. The sitflyer immediately broke and unsuccessfully tried to grab the open leg strap. She ran out of altitude and finally pulled. She opened into an immediate spin because of the uneven weight distribution. By pulling on the opposite risers she was able to lessen the spin to the point that the was able to survive the impact. That was defiantely scary, and I consider a similar scenario on quick ejectors a bit easier since all it take is your grip slipping on the outside on the mechanism to eject the V-Ring. The fundamental concept of both types of connectoprs are ok, they just need some type of locking mechanism. And yes, I know that there's thousands of military jumps on MT gear and many, many studnets jumps. But I am not looking at this from either angle, I am looking at this as a rig purchased by someone just off student status(or getting ready to be). These people will likely want to put their rig through its paces and if they need an MT will likely get invited to do a lot of hybrids. This is taking the rig into flight regimins it was never designed for. Under these conditions, I feel that the hardware is a distinct liability. That's why in my orignal post I said the rig was not safe for our purposes (meaning freefly/hybrids). -Blind"If you end up in an alligator's jaws, naked, you probably did something to deserve it." Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
wmw999 2,168 #38 October 5, 2004 I think this is an excellent post, with food for thought. I still think that "MTs are unsafe" is a little too large a statement to make, but you have meat and thought behind your post. I have ample personal experience with funnels wearing B12s and quick ejectors . Since folks in this size range do have a rather limited set of options, MTs will continue to be part of the mix, but this is good information. Yes, it's a freak accident. But that sucks when you're unlucky enough to be the freak. Wendy W.There is nothing more dangerous than breaking a basic safety rule and getting away with it. It removes fear of the consequences and builds false confidence. (tbrown) Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
LouDiamond 1 #39 October 5, 2004 Let me make a clarification because I think there may be a terminology misunderstanding here as well. A B-12 and a Quick ejector snap are 2 different animals. Military rigs all(modern) have quick ejector snaps. As it was stated, gear back in the day pretty much was nothing BUT B-12s and it is still possible to come across a M series with B-12s on it. A quick ejector snap is not going to come undone unless you lift the lever up and hold it up in order to retract the closing gate. While I don't doubt the scenario you described happened, as anything is possible, I do have issue with misinformation being spread as gospel or perpetuated because the local "guru" has a particular stance on the subject. There is nothing unsafe about either a B-12 or a Quick ejector snap that is properly functioning and is being used as it was designed."It's just skydiving..additional drama is not required" Some people dream about flying, I live my dream SKYMONKEY PUBLISHING Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
airtwardo 6 #40 October 5, 2004 QuoteA B-12 and a Quick ejector snap are 2 different animals. Military rigs all(modern) have quick ejector snaps. Quote Going back through the thread..I'm glad you made that distinction...I can see where some confusion may arise. I have several rigs...one with B12's all the others with Quick Ejectors...and have never had a problem with either... Unless you count the weird looks I get from people that have never seen QE's on a modern rig! ~ If you choke a Smurf, what color does it turn? ~ Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
