Started to spin on AFF course stage 4

[Jimbas 0]

Hi guys,

Last weekend I did my AFF course stage 3 & 4. In the morning I did my stage 3 and it went pretty well. I had a good arch so both jumpmasters let me go. Opened at 5000ft and did a nice landing.

In the afternoon I did my stage 4. Just the same thing but this time with 1 jumpmaster. I did a really good exit but after 10 seconds for some unknown reason I pulled up my leg. So I started to spin all over the place. I saw sky, ground, sky, ground, jumpmaster, sky, ground, jumpmaster, etc. I tried to arch but it just didn't work. At 8500ft my jumpmaster deployed my chute while I was going down on my back. The shock it gave to my body was really intense. My body hurts like hell (shoulders, back, arms and even the lines burned my hip and my face a little.) I had lines twisted so I kicked them out and then I landed. (I had lines twisted on my stage 2 too. I'm actually getting used to this malfunction
When I was going down I was thinking like: damn my jumpmaster is going to be super pissed at me. Not only was I risking my life but I risked her life too. Because all this tumbling down I could've hit her with my knees or something and knock her out. But actually she was really nice too me when I landed. She debriefed me and told me I should not be scared of what has happened. She explained to me what to do if this ever happens again: arch and put 1 arm on the other shoulder, it will turn me around and I'll be back on my belly. She wanted to jump with me again the same day. Because maybe I get scared and never jump again. But that was impossible because of the minor injuries I have.

So what I was wondering is:
Are there people on this forum who had this problem too during there AFF course? If yes, do you have any tips to be not nervous the next time you have to jump? Because I can tell you that I lost some confidence.
I want to do my stage 4 again this Wednesday or next weekend. So if you have any advice for me I would really appreciate it!

[JerseyShawn 0]

I too am AFF, one class to go! I tumbled out my first jump, lost an instructor, arched an recovered fine. I understand losing confidence. You're just learning, and you learned not what to do. Try it again!

All my classes since the tumble went fine. Every time is easier and im more relaxed than the previous jump. And its more fun!

My advise would to go jump as soon as possible and correct what you and your instructor disscussed you did wrong, so its fresh in your memory. If all goes well, there's your confidence back! You just have to go get it.

[wildWilly 0]

If you live close to a wind tunnel it would be a great idea to do some flying there with a coach.
When you first start jumping you don't know what to expect or how to fly your body. To some people this comes quite easily and naturally. To others it is not so easy. Time in a wind tunnel will teach you how to achieve a stable arch and to maneuver where you want in a low stress environment.
Then when you get back in the air you will have a lot more confidence and be more relaxed.

Good luck, welcome to the sky,

Willy

growing old is inevitable, growing up is optional.

[sundevil777 93]

Get your advice on body position and how to recover from tumbling/spinning from your instructors.

However, I can confidently pass on to you that perhaps the most important thing for you to do is to be able to relax. That is not at all easy to do, to relax when so much pressure from the wind is on your limbs. Don't fight the air with tense muscles. You must relax. It is not easy to figure out how to do it, but when you do, everything will seem relatively easy. Of course it is relatively easy to do it if you have a wind tunnel to do it in. Good luck.

People are sick and tired of being told that ordinary and decent people are fed up in this country with being sick and tired. I’m certainly not, and I’m sick and tired of being told that I am

[GLIDEANGLE 1]

1. Altitude,
2. Arch,
3. Smile, breathe, relax.

The tunnel is a great tool (and can be WAY cheaper than repeating AFF jumps).

Listen to your instructor's analysis of your jump. Practice a lot on the ground. Ground practice is cheap.

Be sure to buy that instructor a beer.... She worked hard on that jump!

The choices we make have consequences, for us & for others!

[Jimbas 0]

the windtunnel sounds like good idea to practice my arch. I found one on the internet that is close by.
Do you guys suggest that I do this first? My stage 3 was actually not that bad. So I know I can arch if I set my mind to it.

And suggesting I need to relax more sounds logical. But when you just a noobie like me it's hard to relax. All this adrenaline pumping in my body makes me a little tensed up. If you now what I mean...

Thanks for the advice!

[thrillstalker 0]

it took my buddy 12 jumps to get through his aff so dont stress a repeat, it happens to a lot of people.

i remember the first jump where i was able to relax, it was around 15. i was standing in the door looking out nervous as hell, and i said, "fuck it, it'll open. i got this." at that point it was my favorite dive. calm and easy.

dont fight the wind, cause that is a battle you will never win. it sounds kinda dorky but let the wind pass through you. when you are relaxed you float on the wind, if you are tense the wind will beat the shit out of you.

next time you are driving down the interstate stick you arm out of the window. hold it tense, then release the tension. feel the difference, a relaxed freefall is a lot more fun.

another thing that helped me relax was gaining trust in my equipment. it's a parachute and it wants to open. this helped with my anxiety level tremendously.

trust in your gear, IT WORKS!!!

trust in your instructors, THEY HAVE BEEN WHERE YOU ARE and ARE THERE FOR YOU (i think this one will be easy now)

trust in yourself, YOU KNOW YOUR TRAINING

"Never grow a wishbone, where your backbone ought to be."

[faulknerwn 36]

It took me 48 jumps to get off student status - I have over 7000 now and am an AFF instructor :-) As long as you don't give up and keep trying hard you can do it..

My student logbook is here - its great reading -
http://crwdog.servebeer.com/CRWdog/HowCRW.html

[Jimbas 0]

Quote

It took me 48 jumps to get off student status - I have over 7000 now and am an AFF instructor :-) As long as you don't give up and keep trying hard you can do it..

My student logbook is here - its great reading -
http://crwdog.servebeer.com/CRWdog/HowCRW.html

I just printed out your logbook and started to read it a bit. My God, this actually makes me feel better knowing I'm not the only one struggling with my freefall.
Actually what I didn't tell you guys is that I have a friend who started the exact same course as me. He's already in stage 5. He makes skydiving look easy! I know, everybody is different but still I'm an human being and sometimes I'm a little jealous.
Like on my stage 2 I sprained my ankle during my landing. So I hopped home on 1 leg. And on stage 4 I hurt every body part + scratches in my face. He's laughing is ass off, I can tell you that!

[andyvaughn 0]

I've read faulknerwns log book more than once myself, it's helped me dust myself off and try again a few times! I too have had more than my share of struggles in my few jump numbers learning curve, and more than once I've compared myself with those who I started skydiving with who don't seem to have any struggles, but that's not really a fair comparison. I have my own journey in skydiving, and it may not be not a very graceful one - but it's my journey!
I really appreciate the old timers that take the time to encourage me to keep trying, that are willing to share their struggles with me, and give me the courage to try, try again. I too still get a teensy bit jealous when someone gets their A in 25 jumps and in their first month in the sport, but if I spend much time on that mental masturbation I wouldn't have the self confidence to show up again. So now when someone asks me why I don't have my A yet I just smile and say I'm trying (and of course am getting a ton of coaching to get over my particular variety of skydiving hurdles)
Never ever give up!!!
Andrea

[rvmnw 0]

Yeah I also had a bad AFF 4. When my JM let go of me I fell much faster then him and I mad the mistake of looking up to see where he is and I started to spin. So I arched crazy hard and my JM grabbed me again and stabilized me and then the jump went good from there.

But I think if you start to spin just relax because when it happens you start to panic. Arch hard and control the spin. Keep a clear head. That is what saved my ass when I had a shoulder dislocation

[Skyper 0]

go take some wind tunnel time and it will help you a lot. I was scared to hell before my first solo jump from 13000ft. So I took some wind tunnel training before it and on the first free fly jump I was stable as a rock :D

[Liemberg 0]

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I know I can arch if I set my mind to it.

Again, this is all relative & you should listen to no one else except your instructors but in freefall minute changes in body position like dropping one knee 2 centimeters or bending the other knee a few degrees more can make the whole earth turn several times before you know what is going on and what causes it. Furthermore, you can think you are pretty much OK and doing fine while you are IRL making serious mistakes that would come to light in a tunnel immediately.
Tunnels are extremely unforgiving for freefal mistakes AND the feel of the airflow is exactly like 'the real thing'.
Whereas IRL you can go down sideslipping, compensating an involuntary left turn that was caused by your legs with a right turn through your arms but never really knowing what is going on other than being told by your instructor, in a tunnel the exact same thing sends you into the wall of the tunnel. The learning curve in a tunnel for basic skills like the body movements you'll need to keep your parachute pointed @ the sky when opening it without spinning is very steep since your instructor will be right in front of you, often the video-review is immediate and you can try again and again without steering, landing, walking back, packing etcetera.

Even during the 'jump' communication (and therefore learning) is better and quicker - you can make mistakes, have them pointed out and start correcting - for the typical 'tunneljump' lasts twice as long as a real jump.

Of course, several 'advanced' manoeuvres like tracking and backloops/frontloops can not be done, but a rock solid feeling that you can get from being able to 'snap' into a stable freefall can be acquired there.

Though it is nice to be able to arch if you 'set your mind to it' it is actually your body that has to do all this arching...
At every level of experience the tunnel can help you to perform better in the freefall

"Whoever in discussion adduces authority uses not intellect but memory." - Leonardo da Vinci
A thousand words...

[Jimbas 0]

Okay you guys convinced me, I'm gonna try and book the windtunnel for next weekend. And maybe I'll do my stage 4 the next day.

[ufk22 32]

Just looking for a little more info on this one.
Were you on your back spinning or were you tumbling?
The actions (and directions given you) of your instructor vs what you're telling us have me puzzled. The "bring one arm across" is to get from back-to-earth over on to your belly, when the arm must be re-extended. It works if one is stuck on his back, somewhat stable on the back. If you were tumbling it would just make you less stable.
Why did she deploy you so high while you were on your back?
Did you lose her when you started to spin?

This is the paradox of skydiving. We do something very dangerous, expose ourselves to a totally unnecesary risk, and then spend our time trying to make it safer.

[rehmwa 2]

just talk to your instructor and fix the problem - people here can reassure that your experience wasn't anything unusual, but that's about it - sounds like you were tumbling, or if you were spinning you were on your back

and when the instructor caught you, it is unlikely she dumped you at 8500 ft - more like 4500

again, sit with your instructor and get it worked out and enjoy your next training jump - learn what you can from this one and keep the 'feel' of the good jumps in your head

almost everyone has different problems in AFF to learn through - your experience isn't anything out of the ordinary - retrain, relax, rejump

...
Driving is a one dimensional activity - a monkey can do it - being proud of your driving abilities is like being proud of being able to put on pants

[Ron 7]

Ignore everyone on here except those that gave you the advice to listen to your instructor.

No offense, but your explanation is not enough to diagnose the issue, the explanation you said your instructor gave you was not sufficient....

Long story short you are trying to get pretty technical advice about a high risk sport by giving information you do not have, to people who were not there, in the hopes that those people could give you advice about a problem that they do not understand, with the hopes that you will understand the answer.

Long story short.... Listen to your instructors.

"No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

[rehmwa 2]

student needs to train with his instructor, not random internet posters.....so this thread is done and ready for a tangent/digression then


So any experienced instructor here - hypothetically, what situation can you think of to justify giving up at 8500 feet and dumping a student that you have a hold of?

Other than it's a REALLY wild ride and I KNOW I'm losing my grip (or I'm hurt during the tumble) - I can't think of one. I'll keep working and teaching until I know my hard deck will be compromised. Ours is defined as 3999, but between 4 and 4.5 I'd go ahead and dump him if the tumble is still not controlled.

...
Driving is a one dimensional activity - a monkey can do it - being proud of your driving abilities is like being proud of being able to put on pants

[rehmwa 2]

or maybe if the student appears to be injured or unconscious - then opening them high might be a good idea depending on the winds and drift and the terrain...?

...
Driving is a one dimensional activity - a monkey can do it - being proud of your driving abilities is like being proud of being able to put on pants

[Ron 7]

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what situation can you think of to justify giving up at 8500 feet and dumping a student that you have a hold of?

* Wild ride with unresponsive student.

* I am hurt

* They are hurt

And still, with an unresponsive student that I could control.... I'd dump them lower so they might not drift as far under canopy.

And if they were hurt, I might try to pull them out lower so they spend less time before they can get help.

But if the situation is bad, and getting worse.... I'd dump them.

"No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

[Jimbas 0]

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Ignore everyone on here except those that gave you the advice to listen to your instructor.

No offense, but your explanation is not enough to diagnose the issue, the explanation you said your instructor gave you was not sufficient....

Long story short you are trying to get pretty technical advice about a high risk sport by giving information you do not have, to people who were not there, in the hopes that those people could give you advice about a problem that they do not understand, with the hopes that you will understand the answer.

Long story short.... Listen to your instructors.

You are totally right about only listening to your instructors. But I wasn't trying to get technical advice about what happened. I was looking for people who had experienced the same thing I did on there AFF course. And how they handled it afterwards.

[Ron 7]

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You are totally right about only listening to your instructors. But I wasn't trying to get technical advice about what happened. I was looking for people who had experienced the same thing I did on there AFF course. And how they handled it afterwards.

Of course, but your instructor is even more qualified to answer than anyone else... Even if this has happened to them.

Look at this example... You have given an incomplete picture of your situation... You already have instructors asking you to clarify better. So take a guy that is not able to communicate exactly what is going on, then have a bunch of folks that didn't really get the situation and do not understand it trying to give advice... And the errors THEY have in communication.... And you have the proverbial blind leading the blind.

Every feeling you have, every technical issue, every emotion is best asked to an instructor.

An instructors job is more than just the technical... It is helping with the emotional side as well.

Your instructor will at least understand the problem.

I understand your enthusiasm, I understand your desire to do better and your desire to make your instructors job easier by being ready next time you see them.... Trust me, they would rather you ask them than you showing up with any advice you got off the Internet by some guy with a cool username.

Being an instructor is more than just the technical.

"No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

[rehmwa 2]

Quote

Quote

what situation can you think of to justify giving up at 8500 feet and dumping a student that you have a hold of?

* Wild ride with unresponsive student.
* I am hurt
* They are hurt

(more)

I have the same criteria and considerations -

though my best (most fun) jump last year was the above - he was unresponsive and totally thrashing from 13 to about 7 when I finally got him on his belly. At one point he went into a tuck and grabbed my foot (about 9500) for a second. I worked my butt off to get his eye contact for him to relax and know he wasn't alone, and then on his belly. He got off 3 psuedo practice touches and a real pull by 5 as a result. It was worth it. It was classic drowning man panic followed by the 'big X' once on his belly. My main side (he let go per plan when the student tucked and screamed on his own Go) had tears in his eyes he was laughing the whole time. Main has decades of AFF and said that guy's performance was less than 1/10th of a percent of performances in his experience - I got him with about 20 AFF jumps under my belt.

Don't get me wrong, It's "fun" to have those perfect students that get done early and you have the chance to teach them extra turns, and to communicate more, etc. but for the pure challenge and joy? that ride was a great learning experience for me.

...
Driving is a one dimensional activity - a monkey can do it - being proud of your driving abilities is like being proud of being able to put on pants

[davelepka 4]

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do you have any tips to be not nervous the next time you have to jump? Because I can tell you that I lost some confidence.

Maybe a dose of reality will help you -

You lost confidence? Where did you get this confidence in the first place? By making 3 jumps that went well, with two of them being harness-hold jumps from exit to opening?

Get real. It's not like you have 100's of jumps and could not get stable or depploy your own canopy, you're a STUDENT and what you did was learn a lesson. Your buddy makes it look easy? All that means is that your buddy hasn't been unstable yet, who knows how 'easy' it will be for him when he finally loses stability for the first time.

You jumped, you tried, you lived. Move on with your training. This won't be the last set back you have in skydiving, so nut-up, listen to your instructor and get on with the re-jump. You only partially failed in that you didn't remain stable. Your instructor dumped you out when she had the chance, but for all we know you might have dumped yourself out before pull time if she didn't (that's a hint to remember your altitude awareness, no matter which direction you're facing, pull time is pull time, no exceptions).

No offence to others, but fuck the tunnel. Get back in the plane, and make a real skydive. You know what you need to do, so just do it. Keep in mind your instructors also know what happened, and will train and treat you accordingly.

Most of your jumps have been fine, build on that, and just get on with it.

[rehmwa 2]

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No offense to others, but fuck the tunnel. Get back in the plane, and make a real skydive. You know what you need to do, so just do it. Keep in mind your instructors also know what happened, and will train and treat you accordingly.

you rock, Dave

...
Driving is a one dimensional activity - a monkey can do it - being proud of your driving abilities is like being proud of being able to put on pants