The New Strong "Flinger" (or something..) System.....

[Unstable 8]

Many of you who attended WFFC04 or Couch Freaks may have had an opportunity to see Strong Enterprise's New "Flinger" System on their next generation of Quasar2 Containers. In short, what this new system consists of is a strip or tempered steel in each of the 4 reserve container flaps. It has been treated as to not take a memory. These strips of steel act as springs and "fling" open the reserve container.
I wanted to see if anybody else has ever had a chance to really look at this new Idea from Strong Enterprise. Any comments or ideas? Is this a good or a bad idea?

=========Shaun ==========

[AggieDave 6]

Has there ever been a case of a reserve container having the pin pulled and due to the flaps not opening or not opening quick enough that it caused a fatality or a problem?

For the life of me can't see why this would be necissary or even benifitial.

--"When I die, may I be surrounded by scattered chrome and burning gasoline."

[Unstable 8]

Well, the system has just finished it's research & testing phase. As I understand (or as Allen at Strong explained it to me) the metal used has been tempered to not take on a memory.

I agree with you, however. This strikes me as being a solution to a problem that never really existed...

=========Shaun ==========

[LouDiamond 1]

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Has there ever been a case of a reserve container having the pin pulled and due to the flaps not opening or not opening quick enough that it caused a fatality or a problem?

A few months ago a foreign(french?) 4 way team smoked it down and all had cypress fires. However, all of their reserves did not deploy from the Mirages they were jumping. They all realized what had happened and deployed their mains and landed safely. So yes, it has happened.

"It's just skydiving..additional drama is not required"
Some people dream about flying, I live my dream
SKYMONKEY PUBLISHING

[AggieDave 6]

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A few months ago a foreign(french?) 4 way team smoked it down and all had cypress fires. However, all of their reserves did not deploy from the Mirages they were jumping. They all realized what had happened and deployed their mains and landed safely. So yes, it has happened.

Do you know if the reserves they had were too large for the containers used?

It just seems incredibly odd to me that a container would have the pin pulled and not pop open due to the pressure of the springloaded PC pushing up against the flaps (non-pop top obviously).

Beyond that there are obvious issues, but I'm just talking about the flaps not opening.

<--one confused aggie.

--"When I die, may I be surrounded by scattered chrome and burning gasoline."

[Unstable 8]

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<--one confused aggie.

I'm really confused too. How could that ever really be an issue? Correct me if I'm wrong, but doesn't a Mirage have a 40 pound spring? How could that not do the job?

=========Shaun ==========

[LouDiamond 1]

I don't know the reserve sizes. Apparently the spring was unable to push all 5 of the flaps open enough to allow it to catch air. I do not know if it was a rigging or design error at this point.

"It's just skydiving..additional drama is not required"
Some people dream about flying, I live my dream
SKYMONKEY PUBLISHING

[LouDiamond 1]

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doesn't a Mirage have a 40 pound spring?

I believe it's a 50 or 55 lb, have to check my owners manual. I do know it is the strongest spring used on the sport market though.

"It's just skydiving..additional drama is not required"
Some people dream about flying, I live my dream
SKYMONKEY PUBLISHING

[rushmc 18]

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I don't know the reserve sizes. Apparently the spring was unable to push all 5 of the flaps open enough to allow it to catch air. I do not know if it was a rigging or design error at this point.

If this is true then I have to believe there was some other problem,,,,,MHO

"America will never be destroyed from the outside,
if we falter and lose our freedoms,
it will be because we destroyed ourselves."
Abraham Lincoln

[Unstable 8]

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If this is true then I have to believe there was some other problem,,,,,MHO

That's what I'm thinking at this point - there is really no excuse for that to be happening....

=========Shaun ==========

[murrays 0]

These sound like new and improved pack opening bands. I would think that a properly packed reserve that is of a compatible size should deploy with no problems from any of today's rigs as long as the pilot chute catches air.

--
Murray

"No tyranny is so irksome as petty tyranny: the officious demands of policemen, government clerks, and electromechanical gadgets." - Edward Abbey

[diablopilot 2]

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Has there ever been a case of a reserve container having the pin pulled and due to the flaps not opening or not opening quick enough that it caused a fatality or a problem?

A few months ago a foreign(french?) 4 way team smoked it down and all had cypress fires. However, all of their reserves did not deploy from the Mirages they were jumping. They all realized what had happened and deployed their mains and landed safely. So yes, it has happened.

This is such "rumor out of control". 4 prople all have exactly the same mal? Not the case.

----------------------------------------------
You're not as good as you think you are. Seriously.

[LouDiamond 1]

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his is such "rumor out of control". 4 prople all have exactly the same mal? Not the case.

I had my own doubts at first but the source of this information is very reliable IMO. If I thought it a rumor I would not have mentioned it.

"It's just skydiving..additional drama is not required"
Some people dream about flying, I live my dream
SKYMONKEY PUBLISHING

[DancingFlame 0]

It's not a rumour. Russian 4-way Evolutio Pro Team at Malevsky Cup had that kind of, ahemm... 'mal'
The whole team gone low, understand this and after short tracking whole team pulled their mains. While mains were snivelling, all 4 Cypresses fired. But reserves did not opened and they did not have two-out situation. Rigs were Mirage G4, packed by 2 or 3 different ceritfied riggers. I believe there were some another problem with the rigs.

[diablopilot 2]

So, is this going to just stay in "rumor mode" or is anyone gonna come forth with details like, type of reserve, sixe of container, ect. Container locks don't just happen, and 4 at the same time? No way.

----------------------------------------------
You're not as good as you think you are. Seriously.

[Unstable 8]

Mirage really has a reputation behind their name - I would imagine such an incident would have really shaken things up both in the US and abroad.
Was this caused by the flaps on the Mirage's not opening, or was their not enough force to actually extract the freebag from the container? Would this "flinger" system have been benificial in this case?

=========Shaun ==========

[airtwardo 6]

Strong Ent. is a sponsor for a demo team I jump on,
and has been for about 20 years now...

The system Allen was showcasing at Ft. Dodge
has been in development for a while now
and is finally ready to go.

It my understanding that on some of the rigs
made today, with the tighter more streamlined profile...
there can be a minor hesitation during extraction.

This is simply an additional safety point that 'may' help
get the reserve to launch / open quicker...

Hey, why not...doesn't cost extra!!

I've recently made a few leaps on the new Quazar
and really like it...
not 'sponsor' BS here...they're nice rigs,
and as always with Strong gear..it 'feels' industrial
strength or 'over designed' if you will.

I'm waiting for mine to be made now...
of course it won't be 'stock' as they manufacture
to our specific Demo Duty requirements...

They are also in the testing phase on a really advanced
Tandem Rig...

A whole new container design that you have to see to believe!

~ If you choke a Smurf, what color does it turn? ~

[DancingFlame 0]

It's not just a rumor. It has happened. Can't ask directly from team members as they are in Brasilia now. Rigs were sent to Mirage and then returned with kind of 'that was bad packing' answer. I believe Justin knows facts better, why don't ask him?

Containers were new shiney Mirage G4, do not remember sizes, but I believe they were flying Stiletto 107 - 120. I'll dig more info later.

[whatever 0]

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Has there ever been a case of a reserve container having the pin pulled and due to the flaps not opening or not opening quick enough that it caused a fatality or a problem?

A few months ago a foreign(french?) 4 way team smoked it down and all had cypress fires. However, all of their reserves did not deploy from the Mirages they were jumping. They all realized what had happened and deployed their mains and landed safely. So yes, it has happened.

OK, here's a question:

From what you say in the other post, it sounds like the reserve containers stayed closed, how could they realize that their Cypreses had fired if their reserves did not deploy?

Or am I just reading it wrong and they all realized they went low, but everyone went for the main anyway?

more details would be appreciated

soon to be gone

[LouDiamond 1]

From a post above, DF wrote:

Quote

The whole team gone low, understand this and after short tracking whole team pulled their mains. While mains were snivelling, all 4 Cypresses fired. But reserves did not opened and they did not have two-out situation.

"It's just skydiving..additional drama is not required"
Some people dream about flying, I live my dream
SKYMONKEY PUBLISHING

[cssriggers 0]

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***
A few months ago a foreign(french?) 4 way team smoked it down and all had cypress fires. However, all of their reserves did not deploy from the Mirages they were jumping. They all realized what had happened and deployed their mains and landed safely. So yes, it has happened.

OK, here's a question:

From what you say in the other post, it sounds like the reserve containers stayed closed, how could they realize that their Cypreses had fired if their reserves did not deploy?

more details would be appreciated

Sounds like ALL of the reserves did not deploy but maybe SOME of them did partially ... at least with reserve PCs or opening reserve containers entering the picture, causing a little wake-up? Or maybe someone got ground rush? PURELY speculating here.

Some credible sources are saying Cypreses did fire, and the incident did happen. This could have been easily verified after the fact by looking at the Cypres cutters and/or reserve closing loops. If a Cypres has fired, the used cutter will give definitive proof of that.

That said, I'm glad I've never seen a reserve hesitation in real life. I've seen plenty PC lockups and hesitation the ground at I&R pull time on various containers. They have ALL been due to rigger error - specifically stowing PC material where it should not have been stowed. I wonder if this could be a factor here?

Back to the OP -
I'm glad to see Strong doing this. The stiffener they've always used in Quasar IIs reserve flaps seemed weak and prone to distortion. Hopefully this will help aesthetically, if not functionally as well.

Alpha Mike Foxtrot,
JHL

[DrewEckhardt 0]

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It's not a rumour. Russian 4-way Evolutio Pro Team at Malevsky Cup had that kind of, ahemm... 'mal'
The whole team gone low, understand this and after short tracking whole team pulled their mains. While mains were snivelling, all 4 Cypresses fired. But reserves did not opened and they did not have two-out situation. Rigs were Mirage G4, packed by 2 or 3 different ceritfied riggers. I believe there were some another problem with the rigs.

Provided that the reserve containers opened and pilot chutes deployed that's not a problem. Your want your freebag in the container until the pilot chute reaches the end of its bridle with sufficient drag for clean reserve canopy extraction. This minimizes the chance for entanglements during deployment (which may not be in a stable belly-to-earth position).

http://www.dropzone.com/cgi-bin/forum/gforum.cgi?post=774928;search_string=reserve%20;#774928

The things I take away from that scenario are that
1) Checking for a trailing pilot chute is a good idea if you've dumped low with a Cypres

2) Canopy transfers may not be possible

Not having a deployed pilot chute following a Cypres fire is a _big_ problem.

Do we have actual eye-witness accounts indicating which of these scenarios is the case?

[Spizzzarko 0]

Ladies,

Most modern reserve containers actually "pinch" the reserve into place to ensure that the pilotchute deploys before the freebag. Also the reserve bridle does not create enough drag in freefall to extract the freebag on it's own. It requires the pilot chute. All of this was told to me by a Relative Workshop representative, and we all have to admit that RW does test their stuff. Let's take this info into account before we start to speculate about something that may or may not have happened behind the Iron Curtain (oh, they are now our allies, sorry).

[Spizzzarko 0]

Check it...

I am stealing this post from people talking about firing reserves under canopy in the incident's forum dated 15 Sep 04 about an Airspeed member. They were talking about reserve containers being open when the main was out but them not deploying.



The comment that a reserve should deploy in 3 seconds or less "no matter what" is clearly wrong. I've seen exactly what Alan described at least 5 times over the years (not on my rig- but I've been close enough to watch really well).

One guy had a Cypres fire as the main deployed, but all the reserve pilot chute did was trail the jumper until about 400 feet- then he made a turn to final and the added airspeed of the turn deployed the reserve. He was certain the Cypres had fired at 400 feet until about 20 witnesses told him we'd been watching him trail a reserve PC for about 30 seconds.

If you still don't believe me, try this next time you're due for an I&R: run as fast as you can across the hangar and pull the silver handle. I don't care if you're a world class sprinter, you won't generate enough drag to pull the freebag off your back.

A reserve is designed to meet a very specific spec; it must deploy in 3 seconds or less after a cutaway. If you don't cutaway, don't count on having a reserve out in 3 seconds.



That is all I have to say about that.

[riggermick 6]

it must deploy in 3 seconds or less after a cutaway. If you don't cutaway, don't count on having a reserve out in 3 seconds.



The term used is: functionaly open within 3 seconds. In typical FAA parlance it looks prety cut and dried on the surface but if look inside the meaning of the phrase it can be interpreted in different ways by different people.

IE: is "functionaly open" enough to slow you down and damage you a little bit or even a lot? Or does it mean open to the point of no damage to you at all?

Both are correct as no clear definition is ever given, but that is typical for the 8015 b and FAR's.

I'm just sayin.

Mick.