wt... "a retrofit belly band"?

[lewmonst 0]

So this months skydiving mag has a half page ad for a "retrofit belly band" on page 6. The ad consists of 3 photos... I don't understand the attachment of the bellyband so i went to their website, which is "Coming Soon" and the Belly Band Information page only had an email address, phone number and price. (No I didn't attempt to call this late)

It appears in the first photo, that "The Problem" is a rig that does not fit the jumper properly specificaly in that the laterals are way too long and there is a large gap between the rig and the jumpers back in a sit fly position.

Then the second and third photos show "The Safety Strap" and "The Solution" basically showing some girl in a bikini with a strap that appears to connect to both of the hip rings like a chest strap that can be tightened.

Leaving the bikini thing alone... What I don't understand is why the girl in the first picture is wearing a rig that is WAY to big for her in the first place. Or how a strap connecting the hip rings could do anything about laterals that are extremely too long. I mean, the strap would have to be connected to the backpad or the harness attachment to the container to keep it on her back. And also, it looks to me like the rig in photos 2 and 3 is NOT even the same rig in "The Problem" photo 1... And you can't really see the laterals in photo 2 or 3.

I understand the concept of the safety strap, fine idea, but could someone explain this?

Thanks.
peace
lew

http://www.exitshot.com

[meatbomb 0]

Sounds like another prank along the lines of the cutaway watch...Belly bands were banned here in the UK many years ago...

Edit: Errr...having re-read the post, I meant that belly band deployment devices were banned...not that this has anything to do with that!

---
Swoopert, CS-Aiiiiiii!
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[Squeak 17]

Got a clicky for the pickies

You are not now, nor will you ever be, good enough to not die in this sport (Sparky)
My Life ROCKS!
How's yours doing?

[meatbomb 0]

where?

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Swoopert, CS-Aiiiiiii!
Piccies

[PhreeZone 15]

It was'nt by chance another Marcus ad was it?

Yesterday is history
And tomorrow is a mystery

Parachutemanuals.com

[Remster 24]

No. The ad looked quite legit. There was another spoof ad in the mag that month, but the belly band one looked on par (completely weird, but legit).

I agree with Lew, it dont make much sense to this belly flyer either, but I figured maybe its something that can happen with sitfliers with a non-ideal fitting rig.

The way I think it would work is by keeping the leg straps angled forward, hence pulling the rig closer to the body. Still, a betting fitting rig would be better.

Remster

[darkwing 4]

Actually I think you might find that many old timers (including me) often remark on missing belly bands. I just preferred the way it held the rig in place. Even in cases where the rig fits well it was a nice thing. I'm fairly sure a retrofitted belly band would be cheaper than the modification to the harness required to fix the problem in the ad photo.

-- Jeff
My Skydiving History

[PhreeZone 15]

Not just old timers either. We have a very small male jumper at the DZ with a Micron that has a belly band that RWS installed at the time of build. The belly band holds the rig in place similar to how cut in laterals do on the back. Mark loves his bellyband and the few other people that have tried his rig on have commented that the rig does not move at all on them and they like the feeling alot.

I know its an option from RWS if you ask about it. They perfer that design to the cut in laterals is my impression.

As for the retrofit, I don't get Skydiving so I'll have to wait till I go to the DZ to see a copy and see what they are talking about.

Yesterday is history
And tomorrow is a mystery

Parachutemanuals.com

[riggerrob 558]

Belly band mounted main pilotchutes were fashionable from about 1975 to 1985. Then they feel out of fashion because too many skydivers fell out of the sky when their bridles entangled with twisted belly bands.
Belly bands are still a legitimate way to tighten harnesses. The last time I saw a bellyband was on a Canadian Search and Rescue Technician. He was wearing a huge Javelin with 300 square foot canopies. He also has to wear this harness with every costume from a swim suit to an Arctic parka. The only way to prevent the rig from sliding around on his back is to tighten the belly band.
When retrofitting belly bands to skydiving rigs, the trick is to follow the example set by tandem manufacturers and keep it low - down near hip ring level - so that it does not press on your abdomen. Too much pressure on your abdomen can create nausea and an opportunity to see your breakfast for a second time.
Hee! Hee!

[skycat 0]

Belly bands are coming back, Mirage uses them on thier new student rig. I think it's a great way to compensate for the oversized rig on a smaller person. In that case though the belly band went threw a channel on the backpad pulling the container against the body when tightened, and could be removed for large jumpers who didn't need it.

Deployment system on the rigs I saw were BOC.

Fly it like you stole it!

[lewmonst 0]

Quote

Belly bands are coming back, Mirage uses them on thier new student rig. I think it's a great way to compensate for the oversized rig on a smaller person. In that case though the belly band went threw a channel on the backpad pulling the container against the body when tightened, and could be removed for large jumpers who didn't need it.

Now that of course makes sense... It's the pictures in that ad that I don't get .

peace
lew

http://www.exitshot.com

[ryoder 1,390]

I went back and looked, and gosh, you're right; There *is* a sitfly photo in there! I never noticed it the first time!
Their web site is here:

http://www.applieddeceleration.com/band.html

but it is free of any useful information.

"There are only three things of value: younger women, faster airplanes, and bigger crocodiles" - Arthur Jones.

[boxingrrl 0]

Quote

Not just old timers either. We have a very small male jumper at the DZ with a Micron that has a belly band that RWS installed at the time of build. The belly band holds the rig in place similar to how cut in laterals do on the back.......
I know its an option from RWS if you ask about it.

Lew, I'm pretty sure you remember little Terri-- she has one on her Vector, as well. While the Vector is tiny and fits her very well, I think that the bellyband addresses "bodytype" as well as size issues-- particularly when sit/freeflying.

I've seen the ad in question and I think that you're right to raise the issue... It's like one of those ads for the "Grapefruit 45 Diet Plan". No belly band is going to make a properly fitting rig out of one that's just plain wrong.

[skr 1]

I have a belly band on my rig. It's sewn along
the bottom edge of the main container. I ordered
it that way from Jumpshack some years ago.

When the rig came I undid the stitching along
the bottom edge of the main container and got
the horizontal back strap free of the container
so the harness now fits me instead of the container.

This also allows the main lift webs to move around
in front so I can find the handles instead of having
them buried back behind my armpits somewhere.

The belly band holds the container in place and
also takes some of the weight, like the waist strap
on a backpack does.


One dropzone here has Mirage student rigs which
come with removable belly bands.

The students love them once you show them how
it works, but the local jumpmasters are pretty resistant
and take them off, so I always have to go find one
when I'm helping a student.


I think the picture in the ad was exaggerated to
make a point.

I also think the harness and container design took
a wrong turn when they integrated the harness into
the container and made the shoulder and leg straps
come out of the corners of the container.

That wide over the shoulders design is really
uncomfortable.

I added an elastic thingy between my leg straps too.


So I see the possible return of belly bands as a good
trend in the ongoing evolution of gear design.

Skr

[packertom 0]

I'm one of the makers of the retrofit belly band... maybe I can clear up some of the questions....please don't constrew this as an ad or a plug, just trying to answer some of the questions in this thread.

The belly band is basically a retrofit item that requires no permanent alteration to your rig, it is comprised of 2 pieces of doubled one inch type 17 webbing with a sewn loop on each end that when slid over the leg straps, will sit at the hip junctions on your rig whether it be articulated or of the standard sewn configuration. The buckle is a stainless steel one inch adaptor. Installation or removal takes around 30 seconds and requires no professional help.. i.e. you can install it and remove it yourself. If you wish, you can have your friendly local rigger tack it in place.
The history of the our belly band basically began around January when instructors at our drop zone mentioned that some students with large ill-fitting student rigs were having unintentional turns while in the air due to the container washing around on their backs. My partners and I started working on a fix for one particularly small female student… this is what we came up with… the belly band drew the rig closer to her back and stopped the movement of the container on her back. She commented to us that the band made her feel more secure while in the rig. We made some more and installed them on our rigs, we discovered that it did indeed give us a more secure feeling and with me personally did stop the washing of my container on my back; I jump a Mirage M5…. Big container that extends over the sides of my body. We have since installed them on the student rigs at our dropzone and sold a bunch to up jumpers. Along the way, we noticed that sit flyers in particular are susceptible to the effects of the container moving about on their back. The picture of the girl in the sit in our ad is an extreme case of an ill-fitting rig, used to demonstrate in the strongest possible sense the possible consequences of having an ill-fitting rig while in a sit. (I don't want to mention the maker of the rig, because this isn't about a maker or a style of rig... I will say that it was a custom rig, measured and manufactured to her exact measurements, she has since sent the rig back and had the laterals brought in some.) We then started to notice that many of the most modern and articulated ring harnesses seem to have the biggest problem with this movement while in a sit. While standing on the ground or while flying on your belly, these rigs are awesome-- so far as comfort goes, but when in a sit, due to the changing geometry of the hips and lower back (or due to the shape of a persons lower body), in many cases, the lower portion of the container can lift off of the back. This movement can cause serious problems with stability while in a sit.
We don’t promise that our belly band will solve every problem in the world, but I can personally attest to the fact that this band will help in pulling your container closer to your lower back and giving you a more secure fit. You may remember, back in the day, belly bands were the standard, somewhere along the way we got away from them. I love mine and don’t even think about it being there anymore, I’ve gotten so used to it being there and having that extra feeling of security that, when, the other day, I jumped someone’s rig to diagnose an opening problem, the rig felt weird and loose on me. Everyone that has gotten one thus far loves it and are our best advertising.

I won't mention price here as that would be bad form, but I will say that we've sold so many that we are working overtime to keep up with the orders.

We made this item to solve a problem that we feel is becoming more and more prevalent within our sport due to changing speeds and body positions... we think that this is a trend that is going to come back and within a very few months, we'll start seeing belly bands being offered as a standard option straight from the manufacturers.

We'll have the web site fixed and working soon, we sew, we dont' work well with the web, we've got a friend fixing the site... we wanted to get this product out to the public as fast as possible, so we launched without the web site up... we think it's important..

hope that this answered some questions.

Tom

[email protected]
www.velocitysportswear.com
What's YOUR Zombie Plan?

[packertom 0]

by the way, forgot to mention, that the girl in the sit, when on the ground, her rig fit her very well but only changed position while in a sit. The bikini shot was a bit of cheap marketing on our part, but we have a female skydiver of some noteriety here with a great belly, so we logically used this as an excuse to get her to pose in a bikini she agreed to pose for the pictures because she thought it was a good product with a good intent.

[email protected]
www.velocitysportswear.com
What's YOUR Zombie Plan?

[Deuce 1]

Hey, Tom? Fill out your profile, it will gain you a lot of credibility that is lacking so far.

That rig did not fit well on the ground either. Appearance of a good fit does not count. Simply grabbing that container and lifting would have demonstrated that to any halfway decent gear check.

Your retrofit belly band seems like a way for a small jumper to use a rig that is way too big for them.

[ostrich 0]

When I first saw them on our Mirage RTS', I wasn't sure what to do with it and thought it looked silly But once a more experienced instructor showed me how the belly band made the rig fit better on smaller students, I really like it.

[packertom 0]

I just filled out my profile, thanks for pointing that out...

as for the fit of the rig in question, it was custom fit and did fit well on the ground and believe it or not, while standing upright, you couldn't move the container up on her back... but for some reason, I believe due to certain aspects of her build, when she would assume a sitting position, the hip rings would move forward and upward, but due to the geometry of her butt, she would get a net "up and back" change in positioning of the rings, allowing the container to raise off of her back. I'm not defending this rig as it was obviously, for whatever reason not fitted well to this particular girl's torso, but like I said, this picture was used to demonstrate a worse case scenario.... after we saw this particular instance, we started studying videos of sit flyers in all makes and models of rigs and noticed that more than a few had lifting from the bottom of the container while in a sit position. Some were worse than others and some fit like a glove in any position. We did notice that the rigs that seemed to lift the most and change geometry the most were the most modern and most articulated models. Where we have had our best success is with used rigs... all of my rigs are used and many young jumpers on my drop zone have used equipment that doesn't fit as well as a custom fitted rig would... I wish everyone had custom fitted rigs, but let's face reality, there are more used rigs out there than new ones...we don't claim to be a panacea for all problems, but if your rig is washing around on your back, the belly band is an economical way to get a "near" custom fit feel from your rig. We've had great success with student rigs, due to their inherently large container volume and inherently ill-fitting profile due to the adjustable main lift web, we've found that this attachment aids greatly in anchoring the container to the lower back reducing unintentional parasitic drag turning. I must stress that this is not a fix for an ill fitted main lift web... if your main lift web is too big, it is too big and you may be in danger of hanging yourself on the chest strap... our purpose is to draw the container closer to the lower back to help alleviate the lifting that can occur while in a sit position and help to mitigate the turning effect of a large container that may wash a bit while in free fall.

I truly hope that in the near future, the rig manufacturers make belly bands a standard option on all rigs... I know that this is going to screw us out of some money, but so what? We make our money elsewhere, this is something that we believe in and truly believe will help add to the safety and quality of life of sport jumpers.

As I've stated before, we don't claim to be fixing every problem with this attachment, but there are many people out there that this will help.... We're skydivers first and love the sport, the community and the people, we just saw a problem and came up with what we feel is a solution for a large percentage of the cases out there... we describe the construction with great detail and haven't patented, copyrighted or anything this item... if I were to see these bands being built by other riggers, I would be extremely pleased.... belly bands used to be the order of the day, honestly, I don't know why we ever got away with them... if you think about it, what possible harm can an extra strap across your torso do? Even if this strap is fitted to the most perfectly fitting rig in the history of container design, it can't do anything but add a bit more security to the system... we're just here to help.

Tom

[email protected]
www.velocitysportswear.com
What's YOUR Zombie Plan?

[Deuce 1]

Tom, I appreciate your trying to help, but if that rig fits like that in flight, it does not fit well on the ground, by definition.

For student rigs, I can appreciate the belly band, and for folks with very large torsos.

If that lovely young lady bought that rig custom, and was properly measured, she should sent it back to the manufacturer. If she got a great deal on a used rig that she needs to tighten up, your product fits the bill and will save her some money as opposed to having the harness modified.

I think the first choice is a rig that fits, though.

[riddler 0]

I think they're a great idea for student rigs too. We stick tiny AFF students into huge containers that hold 290s, and the belly-band makes them more comfortable and helps the rig hug to them in freefall. It may also help the student remember to do their chest strap, since they now have two straps around their front, rather than one - I don't know.

What I don't understand is why they would market belly-bands to freeflyers? By the time a person starts FF, they should have their own gear, and it should be suitable for FF (which includes being well-fitting). If the rig is that poorly fitting as shown in the pics, it should not be used for FF. Probably it shouldn't be used for belly either, but for student gear, there are greater offenses.

Trapped on the surface of a sphere. XKCD

[skr 1]

>Your retrofit belly band seems like a way for a
>small jumper to use a rig that is way too big for them.

Up to a point the belly band does help student
rigs fit better, but the rig has to be reasonably
close to start with. You can't push it too far.


But I find my rig much more comfortable with the
horizontal back strap free and a belly band.

When I ordered the rig I talked to John (Sherman)
on the phone about it and he understood what
I wanted and said he would make it that way.

But it came with the horizontal back strap coming
out of the bottom corners of the main container
in accordance with current fashion, so I guess
the guys in the back room doing the sewing
didn't quite believe it.

I had to free the back strap up myself.

The advantages for me are that the harness fits
me instead of the container, the main lift webs
move around in front so the handles are not
buried back under my armpits, and the belly
band holds everything snug.


Also, I probably shouldn't admit this in public but,
I haven't really felt safe since piggy backs came
out.

I had about 1,200 jumps on regular gear, with the
reserve in front where it's supposed to be, and
ever since I got a piggy back I feel like I've been
jumping without a reserve.

The belly band reassures some ancient neural
pathway formed in childhood that I've actually got
a rig on when I jump out :-) :-)

Skr

[diablopilot 2]

Tom, while I don't doubt the usefulness of your product and apreciate the benifit's it can provide for an ill fitting rig, or for smaller students on large gear, 5+ years in the gear business tells me that rig (and I know which one it is) was either built improperly based on measurements or the measurements provided were WAY off (more likely).

----------------------------------------------
You're not as good as you think you are. Seriously.

[packertom 0]

The rig in question was a custom measured rig and yes after this particular picture was taken and analyzed, she sent the rig to the manufacturer who did indeed shorten the laterals... her rig fits her much better now, it's very tight on her and she isn't sure if she's going to be able to wear winter clothing underneath it, we'll find out when it gets cold. Admittedly, the picture in question is a worse case scenario and I agree, in this case, a rig with that much slop in it should go back to the manufacturer as this one did. We did however test the effectiveness of the bellyband on this particular rig prior to it being sent back for retrofit and while it didn't fix the problem in it's entirety, it reduced the amount of slop appreciably. We used this picture to demonstrate a problem in the worst possible light... where we have had much success is with the larger student rigs and used rigs that fit okay, but not as well as they should. I believe that everyone in the sport should have a cutom fit rig that fits them like a glove, having said that, it's a fact of life that people are buying used rigs and many of these people are getting a rig that fits them, but not as close to a glove like fit as they would like, but for a variety of reasons are jumping a rig that has a bit of slop in it... ie.. larger sized container, big volume main, not perfect fit, you name it, they're out there. Personnally, every rig I own was used, and not a one of them fits me like a glove... I'm cheap and so many rigs come past me and I'm offered such good deals that I can 't help but add to the collection the belly band has helped me and made me feel more secure.... if I didn't believe in it, I wouldn't be offering it up for sale, to be honest with you, we've given away almost as many as we've sold... I think it's a good idea and it's a good product that will help many people, not all people, but many people... much like packing a reserve, I won't put a seal on somthing that I wouludn't jump myself, I wouldn't put a product out for sale unless I use it myself and believe in it. In many cases, this band will be of no use whatsoever for a jumper, but in many instances, our band will help someone with a large or sloppy rig to feel more secure and be a better skydiver if for no other reason than they feel more secure in their rig... the comment about students remembering their chest strap because they now have two of them actually has happened and it seems to be a truism from what we've experienced. thus far, we've gotten lots of positive comments from the students in particular... it may just be that they don't know any better and get used to something from jump street... who knows? I do know that we've sold belly bands to almost every student who trained with one when they buy their first rig.... they seem to have gotten used to the extra security and like to keep it with their new rigs, custom fit or not.

I really appreciate all of the feedback that we've received from posters on this board... please keep your comments coming. I do truly appreciate it.

Thanks,

Tom Stewart

[email protected]
www.velocitysportswear.com
What's YOUR Zombie Plan?

[ZoneRat 0]

For what it's worth:

A couple month ago I was out at the DZ to take care of some stuff for a boogie that was coming up. I didn't have my gear as I didn't expect to jump.

Someone needed a practice student for AFFI certification. Also, a student rig just had some modifications to the break lines and needed testing.

So.. free jump. 2 jumps actually. (The lines were a little long the first time).

Anyway. We put the Belly Band on it both jumps.

I can honestly say the Band was comfortable both on the ground and in the air.

In freefall, I forgot it was there.

“There are more things in Heaven and Earth, Horatio, than are dreamt of in your philosophies.”