alp27 0 #1 April 12, 2011 Hi guys, I start my Aff in May. I did a tandem last year and 10 minutes tunnel time late last year. I have now booked an extra 8 minutes coached tunnel time for end of April prior to starting my Aff. Do you guys see a significant benefit in taking tunnel time prior to Aff. I was fairly stable last time and think that the 8 min refresher will hopefully aid in not failing a level (although nothing is a sure thing). What's the general opinion on paying out now for tunnel time as opposed to jumping straight into Aff.Everyone dies.... not everyone lives!! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
popsjumper 2 #2 April 12, 2011 two things... 1. Tunnel time will help. It couldn't hurt. I don't know about the UK but here, the tunnel is cheaper than skydiving and you get to practice 2 minutes (or more) at a time. 8 minutes isn't really a lot of time but it's better than nothing. Benefits: - Getting your "balance" - The importance of body position (arms, legs, arch) - Confidence 2. Please try to get away from the "pass/fail" mentality. Adopt the "learning skills" viewpoint. It may take more than one jump to get a decent grip on the skill set of any particular jump. It doesn't mean you "failed" anything...it simply means that adequately demonstrating the skill set takes more practice.My reality and yours are quite different. I think we're all Bozos on this bus. Falcon5232, SCS8170, SCSA353, POPS9398, DS239 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
nigel99 144 #3 April 12, 2011 Tunnel is cheaper than an AFF level in the UK. Some of the tunnel instructors jump (but not all) but to my knowledge all of them will focus on skydiving relevant skills if you let them know your plans in advance.Experienced jumper - someone who has made mistakes more often than I have and lived. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
GLIDEANGLE 1 #4 April 12, 2011 1. Tunnel time has value. Be sure that your tunnel coach knows that you are prepping for AFF. 2. I am not fond of the Pass/Fail language... It only increases the stress in an already stressful situation. I prefer "repeat a level". 3. While tunnel has value... Don't let it distract you from the more important skills of staying alive. Death or serious injury in freefall above deployment altitiude is rather uncommon. Death or serious injury down low is far too common. The skills of timely deployment and safe canopy flight are far more important... But often less appreciated by students. 4. HAVE FUN in both the tunnel and the sky!!!The choices we make have consequences, for us & for others! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
alp27 0 #5 April 12, 2011 Hi guys, thank you so much for the prompt replies. Tunnel time is significantly cheaper than Aff as suggested above. I have done lots of research and agree wholeheartedly about accident stats and incident under a fully inflated and controllable canopy. Low turns, collisions, etc. This is very much in the forefront of my mind. I have already preped the coach at the tunnel regarding me doing Aff in may and they said we can practice stability and also some practice ripcord pulls. I'm doing my best to push out the pass fail ideas and have been reading brians book on transcending fear - very good read :) and lots of good advice on how to mentally approach jumping. As ppl have said many times if your on the ground safe and unharmed it's a good jump. All jumps are experience and it's something I'm trying to train myself to trustEveryone dies.... not everyone lives!! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
jrjny 0 #6 April 12, 2011 I did 10 mins before Cat A, then 20 mins after Cat B and repeated no levels/got licensed on 26th jump. Good investment. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Ron 7 #7 April 12, 2011 In the military we would dive the guys about 30 mins of tunnel and start them with L4. It works. Don't worry about "failing" just work on doing the best you can."No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
catfishhunter 1 #8 April 12, 2011 Not necessarily to you Ron but you said it to QuotePlease try to get away from the "pass/fail" mentality. I disagree with that. Our society has gotten so far away from success being a good thing we have accepted mediocrity. If you fail skydiving there is a real possibillity of you dying and possibly killing someone else as well. Does that mean if you "fail" a level you should leave the sport?No. Does passing every level the first time make you a better skydiver down the road? No. But it should serve as incentive to work harder. Just my 2 cents MAKE EVERY DAY COUNT Life is Short and we never know how long we are going to have. We must live life to the fullest EVERY DAY. Everything we do should have a greater purpose. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Ron 7 #9 April 12, 2011 QuoteOur society has gotten so far away from success being a good thing we have accepted mediocrity. If you fail skydiving there is a real possibillity of you dying and possibly killing someone else as well. There is a HUGE difference between not passing a level and failing at skydiving. Say a person just didn't get the 90* turns... They had a great exit, nice body position, they pulled, had a great pattern and a stand up landing. They didn't pass the level, but they didn't fail the jump. And those that know me.... Know that I do not sugar coat stuff. Hell, people on here call me an ass."No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
catfishhunter 1 #10 April 12, 2011 Oh I would never accuse you of sugar coating anything :) Focusing on the positive is a good thing but a fail is a fail and it should viewed as such in my opinion. Not berating anyone. Just my commentary on the way our society has waged a war exceptional-ism. I am not a believer in the "everyone is a winner" mentallity. MAKE EVERY DAY COUNT Life is Short and we never know how long we are going to have. We must live life to the fullest EVERY DAY. Everything we do should have a greater purpose. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
alp27 0 #11 April 12, 2011 QuoteOh I would never accuse you of sugar coating anything :) Focusing on the positive is a good thing but a fail is a fail and it should viewed as such in my opinion. Not berating anyone. Just my commentary on the way our society has waged a war exceptional-ism. I am not a believer in the "everyone is a winner" mentallity. I totally agree with the avoidance of everyones a winner. I don't think all kids should get a trophy and teacher should never mark in red pen. Having to repeat a level maybe a fact of life, I may sail thru, however every jump leads to experience and that's never a bad thingEveryone dies.... not everyone lives!! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
rehmwa 2 #12 April 12, 2011 1 - pass/fail - I really don't care about the semantics of it. I just want my students to learn and progress, the levels will take care of themselves. Since I STRONGLY believe in positive reinforcement for sport with a big emphasis on mental training, I won't use the term fail or pass. ---, but I WILL NOT obsess or try to change the student if they use the terms. That's just asking them to do it (think it) in stealth mode. We spend way too much attention on that here IMO. A comment at first, and if they continue to lean on the terms, I leave it be. 2 - Tunnel - The OP seems to be thinking in terms of the cost tradeoff - i.e., minimum $$$ to complete the full AFF cycle. Most students repeat 1 or two jumps - some go through clean. 1 or 2 jumps can be $100 to $250 depending on which jumps are repeated. on average, 15 minutes to 30 minutes of coached tunnel time would be the break even point in terms of $$$ and avoiding one repeat. Even considering that a repeat can always be a hard deck loss of awareness which isn't trained in the tunnel, the tunnel will increase comfort and, indirectly as a result, help the student with altitude awareness as they can focus on more than just body position. I've seen mantis coached non-jumpers with 30 minutes that turn better than some of their instructors. It's nice to have solid freefall technique. Makes it easier to learn alti, canopy, acclimation, etc But I think the comfort, relaxation and muscle memory from tunnel time is worth a hell of a lot more in terms of later training even past AFF. I can't quantify it though - sorry. Tunnel isn't necessary at all. But it WILL help with the early learning immensely. ... Driving is a one dimensional activity - a monkey can do it - being proud of your driving abilities is like being proud of being able to put on pants Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
alp27 0 #13 April 12, 2011 Thanks for the words, it's appreciated and I'm now looking forward even more to starting aff. Skydiving now fills much of my waking thoughts and I can't wait to make it a reality. Better tell the wife to sell some shoes!! :) I need money for jump tickets lolEveryone dies.... not everyone lives!! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Divalent 89 #14 April 12, 2011 AFAIK, there isn't a tunnel within 500 miles of where I'm training, so it's not really an option I've thought about. I suppose it would be helpful to familiarize someone, in advance, of what the forces of the winds will be like when you do a real jump. Right now I'm trying to learn things like turning with my legs, and different positions to fall faster and slower, and I can see that a tunnel would be a time-efficient way to practice those skills. But, without a tunnel, I'm forced settle for the next best thing: I use skydives as a tunnel simulator. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Bertt 0 #15 April 12, 2011 I believe there are two tunnels within 500 miles of Atlanta: Pigeon Forge, TN has a first-generation tunnel that's helpful; Orlando, FL has a newer tunnel that's more popular with skydivers. As far as the pass/fail vs. "you did great, now let's improve a couple of things" - Some students react better to one approach, some react better to the other. Some get beaten down if you say they failed, some feel like you're blowing smoke up their skirt if they know they messed up something and you don't tell them they failed. I think the approach should be customized for the student, but they need to remember that every jump goes in the logbook as one jump, whether the formation came together or not.You don't have to outrun the bear. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
rehmwa 2 #16 April 13, 2011 QuoteAs far as the pass/fail vs. "you did great, now let's improve a couple of things" - Some students react better to one approach, some react better to the other. Some get beaten down if you say they failed, some feel like you're blowing smoke up their skirt if they know they messed up something and you don't tell them they failed. I think the approach should be customized for the student, but they need to remember that every jump goes in the logbook as one jump, whether the formation came together or not. perfectly stated ... Driving is a one dimensional activity - a monkey can do it - being proud of your driving abilities is like being proud of being able to put on pants Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
davjohns 1 #17 April 17, 2011 I did tunnel time before AFF. I think it helped. I had a pretty good / stable position from the beginning and could better focus on my tasks. Not that I recall much focus on my first jump....I know it just wouldnt be right to kill all the stupid people that we meet.. But do you think it would be appropriate to just remove all of the warning labels and let nature take its course. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
