Next time you're at the DZ: What will YOU do to improve canopy safety?

[NWFlyer 2]

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Good idea. Being new, it makes me wonder why everyone is landing in different directions. I just stick to north on final on L&V days.

Which is exactly the right thing to do on L&V days in the student area (south when you graduate to the main area).

The problem is that people sometimes "chase the sock" and will land "with the wind" even though winds are L&V. That's why it's good to have a discussion just to remind everyone "Hey, they're L&V, let's all land to the south in the main area unless they pick up considerably."

"There is only one basic human right, the right to do as you damn well please. And with it comes the only basic human duty, the duty to take the consequences." -P.J. O'Rourke

[Rugby82 0]

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Instead of me giving/drawing wind-briefings to students I'll ask the students to draw their circuit on the board and explain. Then ask if the rest agrees with this and give input. This helps them to use their brain and learn and not just follow my instructions.

For myself, I'll keep filming 4-ways and opening at 4500 ft and stay in the brakes as long as I can to clear as much airspace as possible and try to land last and have all the room to make my swoop.

After all the recent incidents-So are you saying that even if you're not quite the last to land or the next load is already approaching that you'll still make your swoop???

We only have one plane in the sky at a time so 2 loads in the sky at the same time is a non-issue for my DZ.

I don't do more then 90 degrees when I'm not the last one down. I also don't swoop if the people below me are still flying. I always wait till everyone below me landed before I initiate a larger than 90 degrees turn.

I want to swoop but don't have to swoop. If there's heavy traffic I don't swoop. If I'm not sure if there's anyone else in the sky below me I don't swoop. But because I usually open high and know where my brakes are most of the time I'm the last one down.

Blue skies!

[Skyper 0]

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Instead of me giving/drawing wind-briefings to students I'll ask the students to draw their circuit on the board and explain. Then ask if the rest agrees with this and give input. This helps them to use their brain and learn and not just follow my instructions.

For myself, I'll keep filming 4-ways and opening at 4500 ft and stay in the brakes as long as I can to clear as much airspace as possible and try to land last and have all the room to make my swoop.

After all the recent incidents-So are you saying that even if you're not quite the last to land or the next load is already approaching that you'll still make your swoop???

We only have one plane in the sky at a time so 2 loads in the sky at the same time is a non-issue for my DZ.

USPA: "One accident involved two jumpers...who were the only two jumpers under canopy at the time. Another accident involved a jumpers... both very proficient and with very little other traffic around them."

[millertime24 8]

Here's what I'll do; When flying my wingsuit I will, as I always have remain vigilant of other canopies and their location before I open. Once open I will continue to evaluate weather my wl'ing will put me on base/final with the students/tandems. If I can SAFELY overtake their altitude on my 135 I will do so and land long before them... If not Ill land elsewhere and get some exercise walking back to the hanger.

What I will also do is (and this may sound bad but it isn't meant to) question the HP guys performing large turns in the landing area. Basically why they did it, and how they determined it was a safe approach to make, maybe learning a thing or two in the process.

Thats what this junior jumper is going to do.

Muff #5048

[d100965 0]

I've e-mailed the DZO with new proposals.

I've set up a meeting and I've written a presentation addressing ALL jumpers, ALL Swoopers and ALL JM's.
See attachment.

We have two 4 day holidays coming up and I plan to implement this.
As a BPA CP Coach I plan to up my game as the Canopy Cop.
Good Cop = Help others with CP and
Bad Cop = Enforce the rules!
They can decide....

Remember my proposals are specific to my DZ.
But steal any good ideas from it if you so wish to.

[SethInMI 146]

docx converted to PDF

It's flare not flair, brakes not breaks, bridle not bridal, "could NOT care less" not "could care less".

[robinheid 0]

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In that spirit, what are you going to do next time you're at the DZ?

Mind my own business and don't hit anybody or get in anybody's way.

Interesting; not one response to a succinct common sense solution.

I guess that "mind your own business" part doesn't compute with today's politically correct parachutists.

Or maybe it's too hard to understand "don't hit anybody or get in anybody's way" when you're dreaming up rules that ignore the laws of physics and human nature in a quixotic quest to make an inherently dangerous sport inherently safe.

LOL

SCR-6933 / SCS-3463 / D-5533 / BASE 44 / CCS-37 / 82d Airborne (Ret.)

"The beginning of wisdom is to first call things by their right names."

[billvon 2,476]

>Interesting; not one response to a succinct common sense solution.

Because it's a meaningless statement. It's like asking how to deal with the deaths due to drunk driving, and answering "don't hit anyone when you're drunk, stay out of the way of drunks and mind my own business." Easy to say and means nothing.

[robinheid 0]

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>Interesting; not one response to a succinct common sense solution.

Because it's a meaningless statement. It's like asking how to deal with the deaths due to drunk driving, and answering "don't hit anyone when you're drunk, stay out of the way of drunks and mind my own business." Easy to say and means nothing.

OOOOPS. Your analogy just collided with your non sequitur.



Let me make it even simpler:

Q: What will do I do to improve canopy safety?

A: Try to remember every moment that parachuting is very dangerous because each moment I forget that fact exponentially increases the chance of death or grievous bodily injury to myself or others.

SCR-6933 / SCS-3463 / D-5533 / BASE 44 / CCS-37 / 82d Airborne (Ret.)

"The beginning of wisdom is to first call things by their right names."

[skybytch 259]

I'm teaching another canopy control course today. Twelve more jumpers in the sky who will hopefully never die in a canopy collision because they took the time to learn something new.

Would sure love to see some other instructors posting the above...

[drewcarp 0]

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In that spirit, what are you going to do next time you're at the DZ?

Q: What will do I do to improve canopy safety?

A: Try to remember every moment that parachuting is very dangerous because each moment I forget that fact exponentially increases the chance of death or grievous bodily injury to myself or others.

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In that spirit, what are you going to do next time you're at the DZ?

Mind my own business and don't hit anybody or get in anybody's way.

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Just like you do here on DZ.com, huh? Are you too old to learn any new tricks or is your ego too tied up in fact that if less people die your sport you won't seem so extreme?

Separate passes or H&P only for HP landings is the future, how many people have to die first is the only question. Yes, I know non HP pilots collide sometimes too but the difference is that with non HP BOTH pilots have the opportunity to avoid the collision. If you get hit from above and behind by someone going really fast you were never really given a chance.

I would also fully support some jump number requirements for certain wing loadings, that seems like common sense though. It wouldn't make any sense to let any yahoo with 100 hours in 172's go fly a Pitts, which is what is happening now with canopies.

In the mean time I will use a really bright canopy, land far away or pull high and wait for everyone else to land.

Not going to lie though the canopy collision problem makes me jump a lot less and enjoy it less when I do, and that sucks. It is fucking retarded though that the most dangerous thing on a skydive is other skydivers hitting you AFTER everyone's parachutes open. Most people would assume as long as the parachute opens you are home free, which could be the case if we all wanted it to be. I just hope me or my friends don't become another reason to change things.

Cheers

[ianmdrennan 2]

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Most people would assume as long as the parachute opens you are home free

Those people are part of the problem too.

I watched 2 of the closest calls for canopy collisions I've seen in a long time this weekend. BOTH involved skydivers doing 'regular' patterns, under large docile canopies. The only reason they didn't hit was luck. in one of the cases, the pilots never even knew they had a close call.....

I've been working on an article (if nothing than for my own desire to see this problem minimized) but quickly realized how hard it was to write. There are so many variables and intersections that pilots are unaware of that it's hard to put it all in a cohesive document without oversimplifying the problem (which on the surface seems simple itself). Couple that with the fact that 99% of them fly with exactly the mentality mentioned above when in reality they *should* be flying like a motorcyclist rides - constantly evaluating, predicting, reacting, and reevaluating. It should feel like a full time job from the second you open because, simply stated, it is.

Now, HP pilots SHOULDN'T be a problem if your dz is following the group pledge. If they aren't that's a separate issue. But as the system stands now, there should not be any 'mixed' landing areas. If there are, then I'd start by addressing that at your DZ.

Blues,
Ian

Performance Designs Factory Team

[drewcarp 0]

For sure.

The point I was trying to get at (poorly) was that any rational outsider would think is that if we can solve the hard problem of making parachutes very reliable and nearly always sure to save you from certain death then surely we can keep them from running into one another in a huge sky. Obviously not the case though, unfortunately. Seems pretty dumb.

People always bitch about regulation in skydiving but it is the only thing that is going to stop these collisions. As long as just anyone who desires to can go buy the parachute equivalent of a F-16 for a grand and fly it willy-nilly with little chance of anyone enforcing the admittedly pretty loose 'rules' then these collisions are going to happen. And probably kill 2 people, one of whom likely did nothing wrong. Though it does seems many DZ's are stepping up enforcement.

Regulation does suck, but getting taken out while doing nothing wrong sucks more and so does killing yourself on a canopy you have no business flying. When most people enter the sport they wrongly assume skydiving to be like most semi dangerous recreational activities and that their safety is looked out for and regulated much more than it is in our sport. Diving wrecks requires extra certifications. So does doing aerobatics and flying high performance airplanes. Many people expect to be stopped prohibited or warned when they are about to bite off more than they can chew because most places they are but skydiving seems to encourage going big and dangerous and not talking about the incidents or keeping the details because someone might get sued frequently more than taking a cautions approach to a very dangerous activity like HP canopy flight. Which can be fun and wild crazy and a big rush but learning how do it right and proving it doesn't take away from the fun IMO

The world wouldn't stop turning if you had to have 1000 jumps before you could load fly a canopy loaded over 1.5 and had to display some knowledge and skills that would dramatically increase your (and others) chance of survival. Manifest checks your reserve date before your jump but how dare they check that you are qualified to fly around your F-16 of a canopy in crowded skies? Sounds pretty backassward. Requiring that people demonstrate competence before risking others lives is standard nearly everywhere other than skydiving.

The fact that myself and others, when flying a plane, can't perform high speed dives at the runway on any give Saturday at the airport doesn't make flying any less fun. If I want to do low level aerobatics I can get the training and go learn away from other traffic. It also doesn't take away from my fun that you need a certain amount of training before one flies a high performance airplane. In fact most should enjoy participating in the training and learning how to do it correctly and without endangering yourself and others and it is more of an accomplishment when you do get rated.

Why is it so bizarre that we might require people to demonstrate some competence before risking others lives for their personal amusement of flying an HP canopy?

Today's fatal collision in Australia is a good example of how not to do it. I bet the guy with under 1k jumps on 2.7 loaded JVX 84 who died would have rather been reasonably held back until he was ready to fly that canopy than die during his trial and error certification.

Ian, not directed at you at all just a general question for anyone who feels like typing out an answer.

[jclalor 12]

Since I am lucky enough to jump at a DZ with a huge landing area, and as someone who does not perform HP landings, I will be landing very far away from the HP landing area. It does not hurt my pride to do a little walking.

[phoenixlpr 0]

This is not a gear or wing load issue. Some people is lack of discipline of flying their canopies. Those should be benched and re-educated.

[robinheid 0]

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In that spirit, what are you going to do next time you're at the DZ?

Q: What will do I do to improve canopy safety?

A: Try to remember every moment that parachuting is very dangerous because each moment I forget that fact exponentially increases the chance of death or grievous bodily injury to myself or others.

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In that spirit, what are you going to do next time you're at the DZ?

Mind my own business and don't hit anybody or get in anybody's way.

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Just like you do here on DZ.com, huh? Are you too old to learn any new tricks or is your ego too tied up in fact that if less people die your sport you won't seem so extreme?
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LOL. If you'd been jumping more than four years, you'd know that one of my principal focuses throughout my 35+ years of parachuting is to establish better entry-level parachute training so that we don't have these sorts of problems later on.

AFF is a horrendous system for preparing people to be parachutists because it cultivates a mentality of dependency upon others instead of developing self-reliance.

More importantly, it focuses on fun-based freefall instead of survival-based parachuting skills and that lunacy is precisely what has led us to the current state of affairs, because giving a high-speed parachute to someone who was never taught to properly fly a slow one is of course of sure recipe for distaster.

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Separate passes or H&P only for HP landings is the future, how many people have to die first is the only question.

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Brilliant deduction. So how exactly do you accommodate different canopy types and wing loadings on a 4-way? An 8-way? How about 20- or 30- or 50-ways? Does everyone have to buy a 1.0/1.5 and 2.0+ canopy to match the "pass" on which they jump? Intersting way to increase gear sales, but I think you might have a little trouble with this concept passing the practicality test.
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Yes, I know non HP pilots collide sometimes too but the difference is that with non HP BOTH pilots have the opportunity to avoid the collision. If you get hit from above and behind by someone going really fast you were never really given a chance.
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See Right of Way: Higher and faster always must give way to slower and lower, period. That is the rule of the sky, and as I say above, this is NOT a concept that is ever even touched upon in "AFF" training, although I will stand corrected if someone can show me where in the current training curricula right of way is addressed.

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I would also fully support some jump number requirements for certain wing loadings, that seems like common sense though. It wouldn't make any sense to let any yahoo with 100 hours in 172's go fly a Pitts, which is what is happening now with canopies.

"let," eh?


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In the mean time I will use a really bright canopy, land far away or pull high and wait for everyone else to land.

good idea. that is what a lot of us old people do in order to keep getting older.

Not going to lie though the canopy collision problem makes me jump a lot less and enjoy it less when I do, and that sucks. It is fucking retarded though that the most dangerous thing on a skydive is other skydivers hitting you AFTER everyone's parachutes open. Most people would assume as long as the parachute opens you are home free, which could be the case if we all wanted it to be. I just hope me or my friends don't become another reason to change things.

Cheers

LOL. Welcome to parachuting, dude. I suppose you're equally resentful about all the cars you have to avoid on the freeway too.

SCR-6933 / SCS-3463 / D-5533 / BASE 44 / CCS-37 / 82d Airborne (Ret.)

"The beginning of wisdom is to first call things by their right names."