RSL didn't work?! (long)

[The111 1]

Last night had a chop from a WS jump. I was spiralling hard under canopy, look down, hand on red and silver, pulled red. I got flung from the spin, I had no idea what my orientation-to-earth was, but I knew the relative wind was at my back so I kept my thumb in the D handle, arched hard and one second later was belly to relative wind, THEN I pulled silver.

Later that night I started thinking about how silly it was to wait 1 second since I had an RSL. But the more I thought about it, it really felt like my reserve did not fire when the main lifted away, only when I pulled silver. AND I have another piece of evidence to back that idea up. I am not sure if this is true of all RSL's, but at my last repack I noticed the following when I did my drills on the ground. If I pull red, silver on ground, the main risers obviously do not lift away and pull the pin. Silver pulls the pin, but the handle stops moving after about 6 inches, because of the design of the RSL/pin (the pin is actually connected to the RSL, the silver cable only has a hole at the end that the the pin goes through - the reserve cable stops moving when the pin hits the end of the reserve cable housing sideways, it gets jammed, but the pin has been pulled so it's ok). In the air this would not happen as the RSL would pull the pin out of the hole at the end of the cable, and if you did pull the cable, though you would not be pulling your pin (it already was), the cable would move freely as far as you wanted to pull it. Hope all that makes sense. Anyway, on this jump I noticed the reserve handle stop moving at 6 inches, I thought nothing of it at the time because it seemed familiar (from my last drill @ repack), but on the ground I realized that meant the RSL had not pulled the pin.

The final piece of evidence: I just started washing my canopy and when washing the risers noticed the empty RSL ring. So I ran into my room and looked at the container. Sure enough, the RSL was still stowed perfect all along the velcro, and the shackle was wide open. I ALWAYS have it attached, I've never detached it for anything. Now I'm not sure what's normal here, maybe it somehow is supposed to come unshackled after it pulls the pin (which I'm pretty sure it didn't pull the pin), but in my mind, logic would dictate that it would stay on the risers and be found with the canopy. Hell, I know it didn't pull the pin since it never even came off its velcro!

They say you can beat an RSL if you're hella fast, but that's not the case, I waited 1 second between handles. And I know the RSL never moved! The shackle somehow came wide open, and the only explanation I can think of, which I'm sure someone else will offer up, is that it was never closed to begin with. I honestly can't say I checked closely on that specific jump to see if it was hooked up - the RSL is not that important to me and is not part of my gear check on each jump - I jump like it's not there. But I have never disconnected it and have never noticed it "accidentally" disconnected. I tried hooking it up to a ring on the ground and pulling on the ring... the shackle stays closed nice and strong like it should.

I'm stumped... any ideas?

One more weird piece of info. I managed to drop both my handles because I was on the verge of passing out from the amount of pain my reserve opening caused. The fact that I dropped the silver handle means somehow that "jam" I described that causes it to stop moving must have cleared. I distinctly remember the cable getting stuck on the jump, and I remember dropping it, but I don't remember it coming unstuck. Maybe the opening shock was so hard it shook the pin and allowed the cable to keep moving. The pin is still floating around under the reserve flap attached the end of the still stowed RSL.

In retrospect, I'm glad it didn't work (but curious why). I thought so much about how I was back to relative wind when I first cutaway, and I'm glad the reserve didn't fire in that situation. Now that I've proven to myself that I can do my EP's right and stay calm under pressure I'm considering getting rid of the RSL... the only reason I had it was I didn't trust myself to stay calm and do the EP's right.

www.WingsuitPhotos.com

[billvon 2,463]

>I'm stumped... any ideas?

The metal ring connecting the shackle release pin to the tab may have snagged the riser as the riser departed, thus disconnecting the RSL. This has happened more than once on our student rigs.

[GravityGirl 0]

Yeah. RSLs can easily become detached in the plane or on deployment. Particularly with an unstable deployment.

They are a backup device. Backup devices can fail. Always trust and use your full emergency proceedures. Which you did. Congradulations.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Peace and Blue Skies!
Bonnie ==>Gravity Gear!

[sdctlc 0]

The shackel release probably became snagged on something. Do you check it as part of your pre-jump check then again as part of your pre-exit check??

What you described does not sound like a failure but a not hooked shackle. Did you inspect the shackle to see that it secures correctly? Is the metal distorted or does the lock get stuck in the release position?? If anything is not right with the shackle then maybbe that is the reason that the described situation happened but sans that the most likely thing is that it was not hooked at the time of deployment...

The trick is now trying to figure out how/when it became undone....Have fun investigating and I am glad the canopy was found and you are okie-dokie

Scott C.

"He who Hesitates Shall Inherit the Earth!"

[riggerrob 561]

Sounds like your RSL Swedish Snap Shackle quietly released itself when you were not looking. This has happened to me on dozens of normal tandem jumps: good jump, but notice the RSL snap shackle loose when I stretch out the canopy.
Lesson learned - thorough gear checks before donning gear and only fools wait for RSLs to save them.

[Jimbo 0]

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They say you can beat an RSL if you're hella fast, but that's not the case,

Probably for another thread, but I don't know that I buy this one. I'm thinking that if you 'beat' the RSL, that you've just initiated an out of sequence cutaway/reserve deployment.

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I honestly can't say I checked closely on that specific jump to see if it was hooked up - the RSL is not that important to me and is not part of my gear check on each jump - I jump like it's not there.

Use it or not/depend on it or not, if it's there, you should be checking it. This would have been a very different story if somehow the RSL was connected to the three-ring system.

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I managed to drop both my handles

That really sucks. Not simply because handles are expensive to replace, but also because the reserve cable would have been definitive proof that the RSL didn't activate the reserve.

I remember my first RSL cutaway, it felt like an eternity between chop and reserve deployment. I was certain that I beat the RSL, until the rigger showed me the tell-tale kink in my reserve cable.

-
Jim

"Like" - The modern day comma
Good bye, my friends. You are missed.

[The111 1]

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That really sucks. Not simply because handles are expensive to replace, but also because the reserve cable would have been definitive proof that the RSL didn't activate the reserve.

Off topic, the reserve opening was so hard that I HEARD every single one of my vertebrae crack. I was on the verge of passing out for a sec and that is when the handles slipped out of my hands. I remember looking down through tunnel vision watching my handles drop away.

I am pretty sure that the fact that the RSL is still on the velcro IS definitive proof it didn't pull the pin. It never moved.

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I remember my first RSL cutaway, it felt like an eternity between chop and reserve deployment. I was certain that I beat the RSL, until the rigger showed me the tell-tale kink in my reserve cable.

What tell-tale kink? Care to explain? When I fired the reserve on the ground in my rigger's loft, there was no kink created in the cable...

www.WingsuitPhotos.com

[Kris 0]

When an RSL pulls the reserve, it leaves a pretty ugly kink in the reserve cable. A cutaway puts a lot of force on that cable via the RSL.

Firing your reserve by pulling the normal handle won't kink the cable.

Sky, Muff Bro, Rodriguez Bro, and
Bastion of Purity and Innocence!™

[geronimo 1]

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Silver pulls the pin, but the handle stops moving after about 6 inches, because of the design of the RSL/pin (the pin is actually connected to the RSL, the silver cable only has a hole at the end that the the pin goes through - the reserve cable stops moving when the pin hits the end of the reserve cable housing sideways, it gets jammed, but the pin has been pulled so it's ok).

If a reserve cable-RSL configuration acts as a ripcord stop, you might want to look into why that is happening.

The way it is supposed to work (even when the RSL has not been pulled), is that the slightly curved pin (attached to the RSL) rotates when the reserve handle is pulled. The loop at the end of the reserve cable falls off the curved pin before it reaches the ripcord cable housing. The pin protector flap and the RSL lanyard velcro restrict the loop end of the RSL pin so that the pull from the ripcord cable can rotate the pin once it clears the closing loop. The RSL pin moves a little bit and then is supposed to rotate. That is why it is curved and not straight.

Looking at the pics for Vector 2 and Vector 3, it seems that the velcro for the RSL lanyard is placed closer to the center of the flap on the Vector 3, than it was on the Vector 2. The curved pin tip might be catching on the binding tape or top cover as it rotates. This may prevent the pin rotating enough for the ripcord loop to fall off of it. As you keep pulling the reserve handle, the pin contacts the housing sideways as you say. I don't know if the flaps are narrower on the V3.

It might be that the RSL lanyard velcro is very worn. This would allow the lanyard to slide around, when it is supposed to be held in place by the velcro and the closed pin protector flap.

RW has been using this for a very long time. I've never heard of people describing the 'ripcord stop' problem before. Maybe the RSL velcro was replaced on your rig and was positioned incorrectly??

Personally, I would not jump a rig that had a built-in ripcord stop.

PS- no telltale kink in cable with this system.
Other RSL set ups will leave a kink.


of course I could be completely wrong - cuz I ain't a rigger.
.

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I have a dream that my posts will one day will not be judged by the color of the fonts or settings in a Profile but by the content.
Geronimo_AT_http://ParachuteHistory.com

[The111 1]

Yes, the vector3.jpg picture shows my setup. And I didn't think mine would cause a kink either.

Here's the thing though. My velcro isn't worn out. The rig is brand new. And when *THE* RWS rigger observed my concern over the "ripcord stop" in his loft, he said it was normal. Why do you think the "ripcord stop" is so bad? As long as the pin gets pulled, everything's ok, right?

Since I need new handles anyway and am probably going to remove my RSL I guess I'll get a "normal" reserve cable/pin.

www.WingsuitPhotos.com

[USPA 0]

He's jumping an Vector and the vector setup for RSL doesn't damage the reserve ripcord. So the kink you find in e.g. javelin reserve ripcords isn't on his. The RSL was still on the velcro ergo it didn't function.

The trouble with skydiving; If you stink at it and continue to jump, you'll die. If you're good at it and continue to jump, you'll see a lot of friends die...

[geronimo 1]

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*THE* RWS rigger observed my concern over the "ripcord stop" in his loft, he said it was normal. Why do you think the "ripcord stop" is so bad? As long as the pin gets pulled, everything's ok, right?

So say you pull your reserve handle 6.25 inches and it came to a stop. No reserve comes out.

Do you know FOR SURE that you pulled the pin?

I would rather not have ambiguity in pin pulls. That way - in the case of a reserve - I can start banging on the container already knowing FOR SURE that the pin has been pulled.

At 99.9999999% of DZs people are taught to 'clear the cable'. That means make sure you see the end of the cable to KNOW that you pulled it far enough. Each RC has a slight difference in slack distance. The only way to know for sure that you pulled that handle completely is to 'see the end of it'.

Ok - so maybe the end does not have the swaged loop end on it because there was a swage problem.

Ok - so maybe the pin broke and the left over broken pin is still in the loop.

Ok - maybe someone in trying to kill your by cutting the cable

Ok - so maybe your rigger left a temp pin in your rig.

How do you know if you cannot pull the cable out all the way?

What if that flailing reserve handle snags a riser or line & malfunctions your reserve? (You might be unstable during the deployment)
or knocks out one of your teeth?
or pops you in the eye?

There have been people pulling in the wrong direction ( more out & up than down) that have not pulled the RC far enough. How do you tell the difference between that and a ripcord stop?

There have been people with poorly maintained gear that could not get handles all the way out. How do you tell the difference between that and a ripcord stop?

Ripcord stops on reserves are not normal. *THE* RWS rigger can say they are for his rigs. But the rest of the world may think differently.

I suppose it does not matter because people can just wait for the CYPRES to fire.



.

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I have a dream that my posts will one day will not be judged by the color of the fonts or settings in a Profile but by the content.
Geronimo_AT_http://ParachuteHistory.com

[USPA 0]

It's not uncommon for a jumper with a vector setup to experience the stop after pulling. I don't see a problem with it. When no reserves comes out you're screwed. The stop doesn't change a thing about that. (What are gonna do in situations where you've pulled silver and no reserve comes out, in other words what's the difference in your next dission?) The HISTORY pages you refered to earlier is not appliable IMHO, simply our current gear is radicaly different that what people jumped in 1970's. (Every heard of a cone lock latly?)

Furthermore... vector is the most used rig worldwide, I've NEVER heard of the stop causing a problem.

The trouble with skydiving; If you stink at it and continue to jump, you'll die. If you're good at it and continue to jump, you'll see a lot of friends die...

[The111 1]

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So say you pull your reserve handle 6.25 inches and it came to a stop. No reserve comes out.

Do you know FOR SURE that you pulled the pin?

For clarification, still referring to pulling handles on ground at rigger's...

The handle came to a stop before my elbow locked, but the PC *did* come out and the pin was pulled.

I understand some of your other points but I'm not worried about them since I'm removing the RSL altogether, thanks for your input.

www.WingsuitPhotos.com

[geronimo 1]

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It's not uncommon for a jumper with a vector setup to experience the stop after pulling. I don't see a problem with it. When no reserves comes out you're screwed. The stop doesn't change a thing about that. (What are gonna do in situations where you've pulled silver and no reserve comes out, in other words what's the difference in your next dission?)

The question is 'how do you KNOW that you pulled the pin?' Once you know that you have pulled the pin, then you know your reserve totaled. Then you are SOL. If you don't know for sure that the pin was pulled, you can keep pulling on the handle to see if the reserve pops out. If you know the pin was pulled (for sure), you might be able to bang on the container to get it out. [I can provide an AD on this.]

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The HISTORY pages you refered to earlier is not appliable IMHO, simply our current gear is radicaly different that what people jumped in 1970's. (Every heard of a cone lock latly?)

Cone locks lately - nope none.
Ripcord stops - the only history we have is 'ancient' history from the 1970's because ripcord stops were BANNED back then. They have not been used since.

It may just be me - but I think that a main handle hanging up in a main back then has 'about' the same probability of occurrence and a higher severity as a reserve handle hanging up in a reserve today.

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Furthermore... vector is the most used rig worldwide, I've NEVER heard of the stop causing a problem.

Sorry I thought the Javelin was the most popular lately.
I've never heard of this ripcord stop problem before either.

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For clarification, still referring to pulling handles on ground at rigger's...

The handle came to a stop before my elbow locked, but the PC *did* come out and the pin was pulled.

Yes I realize that. But what about the situation when you pull, it stops (like what you experienced on the ground) and no reserve comes out?? Would you really know for sure that the pin was pulled?

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I understand some of your other points but I'm not worried about them since I'm removing the RSL altogether, thanks for your input.

This is a solution too. It is in a similar vein to another RSL system that has a potentially catastrophic failure mode.

……………………….

The part of this that I find strange is that I cannot believe that *THE* RWS rigger would say that a reserve ripcord stopped from clearing the housing is acceptable or 'normal'.

I've known *THE* RWS rigger for around 20 years. He personally told me how his RSL system worked some 10 or 15 years ago.

Until I see or hear him say it personally, I am not really going to believe it.

[where it = a reserve ripcord stopped from clearing the housing is acceptable or 'normal']

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I have a dream that my posts will one day will not be judged by the color of the fonts or settings in a Profile but by the content.
Geronimo_AT_http://ParachuteHistory.com

[kenneth21441 0]

I had this happen to me back in June Lat year. I had two broken lines (center) and cut away,, then pulled the reserve handle.. Upon landing and gathing my cut away main the RSL was not on the risers ... but still on the container.. After much thought on this matter and many emails I finally gave the container Manufator the RSL total length and container serail number.. Comes to find out that wehn my container was made it had one inch yoke extensions in place.. this meaning that the RSL that came with the rig was too short.. and did not work....

I will not however talk bad about this com[pany as they did correct this issue and can hope that there QC department pays attention to details........

Thank you,,just my two cents here...

Ken..

Kenneth Potter
FAA Senior Parachute Rigger
Tactical Delivery Instructor (Jeddah, KSA)
FFL Gunsmith

[jmfreefly 0]

I have RSL-style shackles on my camera suit, and sometimes when I hook them up, they appear to be closed, but with a bit of a tug, they release.

So, when I hook them up, I give them a positive push closed, and then tug on them to ensure they don't open.


Additionally, if you are jumping with an RSL, yes, it is pointless to wait. That is why procedures usually say to arch and then pull the cutaway.

Additionally, in a wingsuit, an on your back reserve deployment is a double edged sword.

In one sense, you are less prone to a problem, as you can't have the reserve PC come up around your arms or legs, as you have a wing there and prevents it.

On the other hand, you still could get the PC wrapped on a foot, hand, or head (eeek!). If that happens, you are most likely stymied by the wings until you cut them away. Precious seconds.

So, bottom line is, probably less of a problem, but if it does occur, you are in serious doo-doo.


Glad to hear ya saved your life.

j

[The111 1]

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Additionally, if you are jumping with an RSL, yes, it is pointless to wait. That is why procedures usually say to arch and then pull the cutaway.

I've honestly forgotten (and changed) a lot about the procedures I was taught. I know I was taught two handed, but have been drilling one handed for a long time and this is what I used the other day. I am definitely going to start my drills now with: legs together, arch hips, THEN peel and pull as necessary. :) Will work fine for WS and freefall jumps.

www.WingsuitPhotos.com

[Ron 7]

Congrats on not dying.

"No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

[FrogNog 1]

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I suppose it does not matter because people can just wait for the CYPRES to fire.

It matters to me. I don't like the idea of "just wait" during a mal. I'd rather have the bloody fingernails to show I tried to unstitch the cordura on the reserve container myself.

-=-=-=-=-
Pull.

[billbooth 10]

The RSL system on Vectors is different from that on other container systems. It is designed NOT to damage your reserve ripcord cable. The velcro attaching the RSL lanyard to the top reserve flap is designed to allow the RSL pin to rotate when you pull the reserve handle so that the pin will not jam against the ripcord housing. On Vector 3's this tab is a double velcro sandwich that almost always allows this rotation to take place. As noted, even if the RSL pin doesn't rotate out of the reserve ripcord end piece, there is no negative effect on the reserve container opening.

The snap shackle that connects the RSL lanyard to the right main riser is held together by a short pin, which is held in place by a small spring. If this pin is not fully seated, or if the spring is weak, then the shackle might release on opening shock. The stainless steel shackles we now use have stronger springs than the brass shackles we used to use. That's why we switched. They make the RSL connection more reliable.

On RWS tandem rigs, there is a small plastic ball attached to the RSL to act as an "emergency" ripcord handle, in case the tandem master can't pull the "real" reserve handle, because of left arm injury or student interference. This "crystal ball" is held in place by a small velcro strip. If this strip comes undone, and you have a hard opening shock, and your snap shackle is not fully closed or has a weak spring, then the inertia generated by the crystal ball on opening might pull it open. This is probably what happened to you.

When the crystal ball secondary reserve ripcord was developed, Vector tandems came with a pud reserve ripcord, which was difficult or impossible to pull with the opposite hand. However, for quite a while now we have been using a forward facing loop reserve handle, which CAN be pulled with either hand. For all these reasons (and others) I have decided to ask people to remove the crystal ball on Sigma tandems when they convert to the Skyhook, and all new Sigmas simply come without it. Since these changes have been made, we have received no reports of disconnecting RSLs.

One question...what main and reserve canopies were you using, and how hard was your MAIN opeing shock?

[USPA 0]

I already asked in PM, but again. Do you see any problems in removing the crystal ball on Vector 2 tandems or sigma tandems without skyhook? Presumming they all havve the forward facing loop reserve handle.

The trouble with skydiving; If you stink at it and continue to jump, you'll die. If you're good at it and continue to jump, you'll see a lot of friends die...

[The111 1]

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One question...what main and reserve canopies were you using, and how hard was your MAIN opeing shock?

Spectre 170 and PDR 160. Main didn't open too hard, but it was spinning pretty hard before I chopped.

www.WingsuitPhotos.com

[billbooth 10]

No, I don't see any problem removing the "crystal ball" from Vector II's or Sigmas, if the forward facing loop handle is installed (and of course an AAD is installed), and all tandem instructors that use the system are briefed on the change.

[Tonto 1]

I've had 8 Tandem cutaway's. The RSL has only worked 3 times out of the 8.

There was a student fatality in SA about 10 years back where the RSL failed. Student RSL's are now attached with a french link instead of a snap shackle.

You did the right thing - and that's what counts.

t

It's the year of the Pig.