Newbie question: Spectre for casual CReW?

[Nataly 38]

I have been doing research, but since I'm still in the early stages I appologise in advance for any ignorant things that might be in this message!!

Ok. I've got the minimum requirements to apply for next year's Canadian military demo team, but have heard from people who know that practicing CReW and accuracy is a *good idea* before going out there and being forced to do stuff you're not ready for.

I've decided I'll be purchasing a Spectre because of its flight and landing characteristics, and because I hear that it's suitable for casual CReW. I am still interested in freeflying, RW, and possibly swooping (later, much later!).

Here are my questions: is there such a thing as a hybrid Spectre and would that be better than a "regular" Spectre? Are microlines an absolute no-no for casual CReW? Do I need non-cascaded lines? And most importantly, if I should have any of these, how hard is it to find or modify a used one with those options?

Anything else I should know? Thanks in advance :)

"There is no problem so bad you can't make it worse."
- Chris Hadfield
« Sors le martinet et flagelle toi indigne contrôleuse de gestion. »
- my boss

[Nataly 38]

Right, I should add that I'm 5'5" and 105 lb (up to 120 in peak running season). I'll be demoing a Spectre 135 soon, and might like it, or might want to eventually buy a 120 in my first rig.

"There is no problem so bad you can't make it worse."
- Chris Hadfield
« Sors le martinet et flagelle toi indigne contrôleuse de gestion. »
- my boss

[AggieDave 6]

You can do CReW with micro-line, but it is dangerous. Its small and will cut through skin quickly.

You can do CReW with out a retractable PC, but you have a very high chance of wrapping it around another PC/bridle or another canopy and then needing to cut away.

You can do CReW with cascaded lines, but its easier to get hung up in the cascade when compressing stacks.

Basically, one of the few canopies made that is a hybrid canopy is the Triatholon. So it can do everything, but it tends to do everything really shitty. (that's a personal opinion, I'm not a big fan of Triatholons).


Are there any CReW dogs near you, or at your DZ? You really shouldn't do CReW without someone training you properly, it is dangerous, you can get in some hairy situations very quickly. If they're into CReW, maybe they have a CReW friendly canopy laying around you can borrow while they teach you how to do it safely.

--"When I die, may I be surrounded by scattered chrome and burning gasoline."

[Nataly 38]

Yes, in fact two ex-skyhawks are at my dropzone, and I have absolutely no desire to do CReW with anyone inexperienced (I'm trying to learn, not kill myself or anyone else!!).

Is a retractable Pilot Chute the same as a collapsible chute?

PS: Are there courses on CReW? I've looked in Parachutist magazine and didn't see any.

"There is no problem so bad you can't make it worse."
- Chris Hadfield
« Sors le martinet et flagelle toi indigne contrôleuse de gestion. »
- my boss

[AggieDave 6]

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Is a retractable Pilot Chute the same as a collapsible chute?

No. A retractable PC pulls the bridle and all back down to the canopy, pullint it all to a neat little system sitting on top of the canopy, not flying behind the canopy.

I think you should sit down and talk to those CReW dogs to see what they recommend, why not use a resource that is there and available to you?

--"When I die, may I be surrounded by scattered chrome and burning gasoline."

[Nataly 38]

Good idea, except that our dropzone isn't open for another couple of months, and those guys won't be around until the summer... But I'm heading for Florida in a couple of weeks and would like to do other stuff until the warm weather comes to Canada

I know, I know.. I shouldn't rush--that's why I'm asking questions at this point, so that I can test some things out and keep an eye open for what I want. Basically, I want a canopy that I can do regular stuff with, but will be good for practicing CReW when the time comes.

So it's like this: I'm planing to get suitable gear to jump and improve on what I already know, but gear that I'll also be able to use when I'll be ready for some CReW (key word "casual", since the Skyhawks do--in theory--teach you everything you need to know). I just don't want to arrive at their training camp and have anxiety attacks because of their fast-pace teaching methods (it *is* the military, after all!!) Makes sense?

So any advice on gear and options and how to find them would be welcome!!

"There is no problem so bad you can't make it worse."
- Chris Hadfield
« Sors le martinet et flagelle toi indigne contrôleuse de gestion. »
- my boss

[riggerrob 558]

Hee! Hee! Nataly,

You remind me of Steve Ramsey and I teaching each other CReW over the Moncton DZ 20 years ago. We were also base-pin in the first five stack built over Moncton.

Last time I wintered in Perris Valley, California, the (British Army Display Team) Red Devils were trialing Spectres. The Red Devils found that Spectres were pretty good at simple two-way formations, but they got too squirrely (i.e. turn too quickly) in complex tri-by-sides.
Not your problem as tri-by-sides should only be done with closely-matched canopies.

Seriously, a Spectre will do just fine for casual CReW because it is a docile, slightly tapered 7-cell. If you only plan on doing casual CReW, then a bungee or kill-line collapsible pilotchute will be fine.
The fancy retractable pilotchutes are best left to dedicated CReW teams with matching rigs. Then the retractable pilotchutes eliminate clutter during high-speed rotations.

As for the whole debate over Spectra vs. Dacron suspension lines, call Red at Flight Concepts so he can dispell some of the urban myths.

[Nataly 38]

Hmmm.. I get the feeling I've made a boo-boo.. Just to clarify things.. I realise I'm asking lots of questions.. Some of them probably seem pretty stupid to someone who knows.. I think I may have even annoyed Skybytch the other day with questions about gear (sorry )

I should explain that I am doing lots of research on my end, but due to where I live (small city, only one dropzone in the province--two hours away and closed until summer) and my job, finding information can be frustrating and difficult.

I'm not trying to use these forums out of laziness and I don't expect anyone to tell me absolutely everything I need to know--all I hope to get is a bit of guidance from people with a lot of knowledge. I want to be informed *before* going out and making stupid mistakes. I am new and pretty inexperienced, but I'm safe and relatively conservative too. I appreciate all the advice thusfar, and apologise if I sound like an absolute moron sometimes

"There is no problem so bad you can't make it worse."
- Chris Hadfield
« Sors le martinet et flagelle toi indigne contrôleuse de gestion. »
- my boss

[Nataly 38]

Thanks Rob!
So how hard are these to find for used gear, or will the lines have to be installed new?

"There is no problem so bad you can't make it worse."
- Chris Hadfield
« Sors le martinet et flagelle toi indigne contrôleuse de gestion. »
- my boss

[relyon 0]

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You can do CReW with micro-line, but it is dangerous. Its small and will cut through skin quickly.

The most common line injuries are burns or cuts caused by a burning (sliding) action, not cuts alone. Spectra is better than Dacron in this respect because it's far more slippery (also harder to grip for the same reason). Cuts alone are likely occur when a line is draped across exposed skin and significant weight is applied. The risk of these can be greatly reduced by 1) avoiding situations where one is deep in the lines (eg. planes) and 2) wearing clothes to minimize exposed skin.

For all the talk I've heard of being sliced and diced by microline, I've never dialogued with or even heard of anyone it has actually happened to. I've experienced numerous minor Dacron burns first hand and seen plenty of others that were worse.

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You can do CReW with out a retractable PC, but you have a very high chance of wrapping it around another PC/bridle or another canopy and then needing to cut away.

Unless you're doing world class rotations (hardly casual CRW) or are completely inept at basic canopy control (perhaps CRW isn't the right discipline), the risk is pretty small. There's a far greater risk from unintentional canopy and/or line contact leading to entanglements and/or wraps. When I coach someone on their first CRW dive(s), it's a 2-way no contact dive so I can get a feel for how they fly close to another canopy, regardless of how many jumps they have.

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You can do CReW with cascaded lines, but its easier to get hung up in the cascade when compressing stacks.

The biggest problem I've run into with cascaded lines is setting the foot grip, because of the line geometry. The grip is further back than normal. Other than that cascades are just a pain - shimmy down until the feet hit the V, reset the foot grips below it, shimmy down some more until the hands reach the V, reset the hand grips below it, then shimmy down the rest of the way.

I avoid planning (ie. a compressed stack) microlined canopies because I don't like being that deep in microlines.

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Basically, one of the few canopies made that is a hybrid canopy is the Triatholon. So it can do everything, but it tends to do everything really shitty. (that's a personal opinion, I'm not a big fan of Triatholons).

Many world class CRW teams use Triathlons, and go home with medals. The Russian rotation team does consistent 21 point skydives (world record pace) with them. You're certainly entitled to your opinion, but I wouldn't blame the canopy. I've got about 250 jumps on a 160 (including 50 or so CRW jumps) and my opinion can be summed up as "jack of all trades, master of none" - just what I expected of it.

Bob

[loughery 0]

Hey Nataly I should let you know that we are all meeting at the Collage Hill Social Club in Fredericton this Friday night at 10 or so. You might be able to get some advice from some of the CRW guys then.

TOT
www.SkydiveMoncton.com

To my wife: 'If you ask me to stop skydiving, you are asking me to move out!'

[TribalTalon 0]

well. take this as my VERY unexperienced advice. I have a spectre 170 loaded at approximately 1:1.14 with microlines, and i've made a biplane, compressed stack, and downplane with no problems. i dont really see microline as being that bad, i have never actually seen anybody get cut by it either, but i have been burned pretty good by dacron. *shrugs* just make sure you jump with a very very good crw jumper that can make up for your lack of canopy skills.

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[quade 3]

Normally I wouldn't hesitate to recommend a Spectre for just about any purpose short of PST events.

However, the Canadian SkyHawks use Triathalons, so, you might consider getting one just to get used to it.

Here's a photo I took of them training last February at Perris.

quade -
The World's Most Boring Skydiver

[AggieDave 6]

Thanks for your reply!

I've seen burns and cuts from micro before, but like you I've heard horror stories. So, I will most definately bow to your wisdom on that and say probably urban myth. Thank you for correcting.

I have seen PCs dance up burbles and wrap before, infact I broke apart a stack I was in due to that almost happening just a while back.

As for cascaded lines, we basically said the same thing. You were just much more clear in meaning then I was.

Oh, and I just happen to hate Triatholons, that's why I said it was a personal opinion. I really don't care that Team X can do Y with them, I've flown them and just flat out don't like them.

To end my reply, I will say, I am not a hard-core CReW dog, I'm just a guy that enjoys tossing some stacks together and flying them, compressing them and just flat out having fun with friends on sunset loads. I've done CReW with a wide variaty of canopies for a total of I think around only 50 CReW jumps at wingloadings ranging from about 1.2:1 to 1.9:1 (with people in the formation at over 2.0:1).

--"When I die, may I be surrounded by scattered chrome and burning gasoline."

[srg 0]

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Here are my questions: is there such a thing as a hybrid Spectre and would that be better than a "regular" Spectre? Are microlines an absolute no-no for casual CReW? Do I need non-cascaded lines? And most importantly, if I should have any of these, how hard is it to find or modify a used one with those options?

Anything else I should know? Thanks in advance :)

You can order a Spectre with CRW lines (Dacron, non-cascaded center A+B lines). It doesn't even cost extra. If you buy a used canopy you can just re-line it that way.

"Be braver -- you can't cross a chasm in two small jumps."

[relyon 0]

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I have seen PCs dance up burbles and wrap before, infact I broke apart a stack I was in due to that almost happening just a while back.

I'm curious, was it stacked or planed? Was the PC kill line or something non-collapsible? I've done a number of CRW jumps with normal PC setups (ie. non-retractable) and haven't run into this (and would rather not).

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... I've done CReW with a wide variaty of canopies for a total of I think around only 50 CReW jumps at wingloadings ranging from about 1.2:1 to 1.9:1 (with people in the formation at over 2.0:1).

Cool. Just be real careful if you're doing CRW with HP canopies. You certainly don't want to repeat Tim and Brit's experience, or worse. As cool as they look (actually, because of how cool they look), I'm not a big fan of the Parachutist pics depicting CRW with HP canopies. They don't show how bad it can get or how fast that can happen when something goes wrong.

Bob

[chuckbrown 0]

I've noticed this happen in a stack configuration with non-collapsible PCs. Looks like a cobra back there, and appears to be caused by the body burble of the top jumper; I've never seen PCs act like that in a planed formation.

As far as HP CRW, USPA should put those videos on their website for a "Don't try this at home" lesson. When HP canopies go bad, they go bad very fast. I've done HP CRW and it was wild, but it was done with people who knew how to do CRW.

[faulknerwn 36]

Normally kill-line pilot chutes behave pretty well in CRW formations of all sorts. Sometimes they'll slide around on the top of the canopy, and I like to grab them and wave them at the people below, but I've never seen them even be close to wanting to entangle. That seems to be much more of an issue with non-collapsible ones.

I recommend both Spectres and Triathalons for CRW all the time. They work well. Certainly non-cascaded lines make it easier. For serious CRW, I'd want dacron lines, but I do CRW with microlined canopies all the time and its really not a big deal.

W

[AggieDave 6]

It was with collapsable PCs, normal setups.

As for HP CReW, I saw that vid, I defatinately don't want that to happen, we do try to be careful.

--"When I die, may I be surrounded by scattered chrome and burning gasoline."

[Nataly 38]

Wow!!

All fascinating stuff!! Thanks for all the info everybody! This is very helpful for me and gives me a lot to think about.. It's good to hear all kinds of things before going out there.. wouldn't want to break anything useful!!!

"There is no problem so bad you can't make it worse."
- Chris Hadfield
« Sors le martinet et flagelle toi indigne contrôleuse de gestion. »
- my boss

[bodypilot90 0]

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But I'm heading for Florida in a couple of weeks and would like to do other stuff until the warm weather comes to Canada

just let us know when you are coming down. Someone will help ya out, crw people rock

[halopistols 0]

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Last time I wintered in Perris Valley, California, the (British Army Display Team) Red Devils were trialing Spectres. The Red Devils found that Spectres were pretty good at simple two-way formations, but they got too squirrely (i.e. turn too quickly) in complex tri-by-sides.
Not your problem as tri-by-sides should only be done with closely-matched canopies.

I was one of the guys you mentioned who were trialling the Spectres, trust me, don't use them for CRW!! We built a straight 4 stack twice, and both times it went bad. The second time resulted in my first ever reserve ride (plus the fella I was wrapped up with!!).