Sponsorship Questions and General Manufacturer discussion

[BlindBrick 0]

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Why exactly do you feel that sponsoring a group of inexperienced skydivers in a college club is any better than sponsoring the instructors at the nearest dropzone, which generally always advertise on campus anyway?

[edited because I didn't fully read Skymonkey's message]

I never said, and do not feel, that sponsoring college teams is /more/ important than an instructor's program. I merely said that I believed that college teams should receive more consideration. I will reiterate these reasons below.

1. College jumpers tend to be younger and thus form brand loyalties earlier and tend to purchase thigns for a logner period. ie. For argument, you have an average jumper starts at ~28 y.o.(an arbitrary number) and a college jumper starting at 18. Now assuming that everything else is equal and that they leave the sport at the same time, the college jumper will have a decade more of slydiving-related purchases.

2. College students are influenced by the info given to them by college students who jump. This applies to tandem as well as personal gear. If a whuffo student asks me about two dropzones and I say DZ:A uses brand X tandem gear which is crap, and DZ:B uses Brand Y which is OK, which DZ do you think they might be influenced to go to?

Finally, something that occured to me as I was typing this was your comment about college teams being inexperienced. This in and of itself might be important. When you watch a team like the Knights or Majik, you are struck not only by their skill but the amount of sheer dedication and talent it takes to get to that level. Honestly, that's a level that the vast majority of skydivers will /never/ attain. They serve more as an high ideal to strive towards. College teams, OTOH, represent a level of advancement that is obtainable is the relative short term. In that way, they can be as inspiring as the big boys.

Turning this back to the topic at hand, the people most likely to be inspired by these "inexperienced" teams are probably relatively low time jumpers, ie people who are very likely looking towards their first new gear purchase. If the gear company can make a good impression on these people(ie through spponorship of college teams, ect.), they are likely to form a brand loyalty that will span these jumpers entire time in the sport.

-Blind

"If you end up in an alligator's jaws, naked, you probably did something to deserve it."

[aubsmell 0]

The college subject is close to my heart, so this is more me than Aerodyne speaking....a preemptive sorry for breaking your balls...

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1. College jumpers tend to be younger and thus form brand loyalties earlier and tend to purchase thigns for a logner period. ie. For argument, you have an average jumper starts at ~28 y.o.(an arbitrary number) and a college jumper starting at 18. Now assuming that everything else is equal and that they leave the sport at the same time, the college jumper will have a decade more of slydiving-related purchases.

Do a little research. The average lifespan of a skydiver (by lifespan I mean longevity in the sport) is around 7 years, or less. I'm sure USPA coud give you exact numbers, for a price. It dosen't matter weather they start at 15 or 50.

I feel that if guys with 131 jumps tasted the teet of sponsorship....they'd suck for life. Once you get something for free or heavily discounted, it is hard to go back to retail.

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2. College students are influenced by the info given to them by college students who jump. This applies to tandem as well as personal gear. If a whuffo student asks me about two dropzones and I say DZ:A uses brand X tandem gear which is crap, and DZ:B uses Brand Y which is OK, which DZ do you think they might be influenced to go to?

College students are influenced by everything. I know I was one for 7 years. When you sponsor someone you want them to bring something dramatic to the table. And in turn you want to be able to help them dramatically.

To quote the beastie boys again...beer drinkin, breath stinkin, sniffin glue...that is the state of a lot of college students. Not a bad thing, like I said I did it, but I don't want to sponsorthem just because they belong to a club.

And college students are broke, I worked three jobs and was in the army when I was in college...I distinctly remember thinking "well I'd like to make two jumps ths weekend, but if I spend that other $18 I can't go out all week" I don't think companies should provide sponsorship as a form of welfare.

The vast majority of college students are quitters...look at the grand scheme of things. less than 50% off people who start college actually finish. Most of the college students who do go jump do 1 tandem. Or start AFF and don't finish it.

My first job in skydiving was at Skydive Tallahassee while I was in school at Florida State University. I ran the club there for a year, and was involved in it for years. So I'm very familiar with college clubs and college teams.

I don't think it is in the best interest of companies to sponsor college teams.

If I was in a college club and on a college compition team, here is what I'd do.

I would seek monitary sponsorship from local businesses, alumni associations, if you are in a fraternity, from the fraternity alumni associations. When you go to your student clubs organization every semester for money, bilit the team as a seperate entity, apart from the club, try to get money for TEAM training, for TEAM equipment.

Then Solicite the manufactruers for that BULK discount, or better yet the smart guy would ask the manufactuer to help them work with one of their distributors to get the best discounts for all your shit, helmets, altis, suits all of it. like their sub distributor price for everything for that team.

Contact me personally dude, I can tell you all kinds of stuff I did at the FSU club to garner stuff from the school, dz's manufacturers, that way you are not reinventing the wheel. There is power in numbers and that is what you have as a club, but sponsorship....not the right approach.

One point of advise from a working college graduate to a college student. If you thank life is going to hand you anything....you are wrong. If you think that a diploma will get you anything more than just a very base consideration.....prepare yourself to get knocked a little harder in the school of hard knocks.

Let me peel away from knocking on you for a second. And tell you what I do for college clubs.

I treat treat them like a dropzone, if it is purchased by the club and not an individual. Your college club can buy a complete system, or systems from me, to be used communally by club members at a price we will negotiate a discount based on the number of systems requested. This sale will go through an aerodyne distributor. I have a very special interest in helping clubs out, since I got my start sport skydiving in one.

Also contact me to help out with your boogies I love to support them. I recently attended the University of Florida boogie in Williston, and also the Embry Riddle Aeronautical University boogie in Deland.

What I like to see is college clubs being proactive in the sport, like using that young motivated man power to put on a good boogie, or do a fund raiser or jumpathon for cancer, get it in your school paper, you local news paper. It's up to you edumacated people to make our sport look good. Make a float in your schools homecoming parade. Get your pro license and jump into a football game.

Respect your elders like Chucky Blue, He was jumpin out of airplanes and earned his Green Beret before you were born.

"Those who say it cannot be done, should not interrupt those who are doing it"

[aubsmell 0]

Jaye,
My beautiful rig winning inspiration (I still can't believe you won that). We now have an email address:

[email protected]

So people can send in their wacky zaney ideas...I'm not being greedy with this, if you are a manufacturer and reading this....I think it would be a really good idea to have a space available for unsolicited input like this.

I'll see if I can't get a little blurb added to our website about this too....

check our site next week on or around the 16-17 there is going to be some bomb new stuff on there....hopefully including the Idea dealy....

I'm going to have all the sales, marketing, and engineering guys have the password to this account and devide the entries into idea specific folders...like engineering, rigging, promo, flying, packing..etc. so we all can look through and check stuff out.

Thanks Jaye

"Those who say it cannot be done, should not interrupt those who are doing it"

[riggerrob 562]

Along the lines of painting logos on the bottom of canopies ... just paint a big "AERODYNE" logo on student sliders. Painting sliders works better because sliders are closer to the students' eyes and easier to read.
PISA tried painting HORNET and WILDFIRE logos on center bottom skins, but they were too far away to read easily.
For tandem sliders, paint "www.local dz.com" or
"1-800-2jumphi" with a smaller "Aerodyne" logo in the corner of the slider. This will work especially well for tandem instructors who offer handy cam.
If the end-user is a photographer, paint "www.joesfreefallphotographyservice.com" or "1-800-2jumphi" with a medium-sized "Aerodyne" logo in the corner.
As for "A card" athletes doing Beta testing, tell them that the more jumps they do on canopy number one - during the first year - the better discount they get when they trade it for a new canopy at the end of the year.

[AndyMan 7]

To be quite honest, I'm really quite resentful of people that get sponsorships.

Contrary to the intent, generally I'm LESS likely to buy from manufacturers who're heavily into sponsorship.

I simply do not understand why a guy who busts his ass just as much as I do gets bags of free stuff, while I have to pay full price.

I would be much happier if instead of giving gear to skygods, manufacturers would instead give or heavily discount gear to student programs.

I can name at least 5 DZ's I've been to where the student gear is at least 20 years old - and I don't even travel that much. There simply is no excuse for a DZ to be jumping sweethogs with FXC's when the latest "hot shit 4-way" is jumping the latest top of the line toy for no charge.

Manufacturers need to get their priorities striaght. Even from a business sense, I would think if students are jumping good new gear during their progression, they'd be likely to buy that same brand of gear once their off student status.

_Am

__

You put the fun in "funnel" - craichead.

[billvon 2,475]

>College jumpers tend to be younger and thus form brand loyalties earlier . . .

Right. But whose gear choices will they choose to emulate? A friend of theirs who has 32 jumps or an instructor who has set a few world records? Who do they want to "be like?"

>College students are influenced by the info given to them by college
> students who jump.

They are influenced far more by the people who teach them.

>This applies to tandem as well as personal gear. If a whuffo student
> asks me about two dropzones and I say DZ:A uses brand X tandem
> gear which is crap, and DZ:B uses Brand Y which is OK, which DZ do
> you think they might be influenced to go to?

The one that has lower prices. That's consistently been the #1 reason given around here as to which DZ tandems go to.

> College teams, OTOH, represent a level of advancement that is
> obtainable is the relative short term.

Not to be blunt, but skydivers want to emulate the sport's leaders, not their pals. If you really want to start swooping, are you going to take advice from Brian Germain or your buddy who has 20 jumps on an old Stiletto?

[relyon 0]

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To be quite honest, I'm really quite resentful of people that get sponsorships.

I'm sure not. There are often expectations of those being sponsored that wouldn't be there otherwise. Such expectations can be far in excess of the sponsorship value. I'm all for cheaper as opposed to more expensive, but given a choice between owing something vs. paying full price I'll happily spend my money with no further obligation.

Bob

[ACMESkydiver 0]

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This has stimulated me to contact our web guy, what I want to do is set up an account [email protected], again just kicking around ideas. So that people have a place to send their ideas, because a smart company neeeeeeds to listen to thier customers.

Great idea! Thanks!

Oh...regarding the 'boobie prison'...LOL...depends on how wide the 'X' is. If you look at just below the ring covers across to just above hips...and a cross the other way as well, fastened in the middle...that wouldn't put any pressure on the twins. And I might actually be able to see a chest-mount alti witha configuration like that...right now, with the strap below...well, why bother? View of the critical numbers is...umm...obscured.

~Jaye
Do not believe that possibly you can escape the reward of your action.

[billvon 2,475]

>I would be much happier if instead of giving gear to skygods,
> manufacturers would instead give or heavily discount gear to
> student programs.

That's an endless entitlement cycle. i.e. Why should students get cheap gear when I bust my butt giving free seminars and coaching? Skydiving gear manufacturers are in this business to make money, not to entice more people into the sport or to make the sport a warmer, fuzzier place (although many do make efforts in that direction, which is cool.)

>Even from a business sense, I would think if students are jumping
> good new gear during their progression, they'd be likely to buy that
> same brand of gear once their off student status.

I jumped a brand-new Manta after about six months into my student progression. Does that mean I should have bought a Nova? It never crossed my mind (although I did buy a cheap Nova years later.) I simply never made the connection that whoever makes big honking slow student canopies would make fun canopies as well. If anything, I figured that I didn't want another student canopy so I didn't want another Glide Path canopy.

[skybytch 259]

Some thoughts on sponsorship...

So you know where I'm coming from, I currently have a fully sponsored container (i.e. "free") and a partially sponsored jumpsuit (50% discount), and have had a fully sponsored main canopy in the past.

Who do I think should be sponsored? imho, those who are involved in the sport on a full time basis and who are in a position to and have adequate gear knowledge to advise other jumpers about gear selection are the ideal jumpers for a manufacturer to offer sponsorship to. I say full time because those are the people who are making an investment in the sport as a whole by making it not just their sport but also their career - a career that doesn't offer much in the way of financial gain. Instructors (both student and discipline specific), riggers, dzo's and gear salespeople for canopies, containers and jumpsuits and camera fliers for video related equipment (helmets, video accessories, video specific jumpsuits). These are the people that new jumpers (or experienced jumpers looking to get into a new discipline) look up to and who's advice they trust. Additionally, most of these jumpers have invested quite a bit of their own money in getting to the point they are at. Sponsoring competitors seems to me to be more of an altruistic move but as you mentioned it does have advertising and R&D benefit to the manufacturer.

What to do about a sponsored jumper who isn't keeping up their end of the bargain? Dump 'em. Sponsored gear shouldn't be free. I feel that as a sponsored jumper I have a big responsibility to the manufacturer to represent their product in the best possible light. I may not have sent a check to Velocity Sports for my rig but the fact that I jump and speak highly of their container has created a number of sales that may not have happened if I were jumping something else. That said, although I jump an Infinity I won't always recommend the Infinity to someone asking me which container is the "best" - because as most of us know, what is the best container for me, my canopy and body sizes, my definition of comfort and good looks and how I skydive may not be the best container for someone else. Luckily for me, Kelly also knows that the Infinity isn't the right choice for every jumper.

Still lovin' this thread... good stuff here.

[aubsmell 0]

This is a good post, I'll be happy to give you my feelings. and I may be able to say a manufacturers perspecitve, and a responsible business persons perspecitve.

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Contrary to the intent, generally I'm LESS likely to buy from manufacturers who're heavily into sponsorship.

The first thing I do before I post to someones reply is look at their profile, to see if I can glean any info usefull to me in my posting....experience equipment that sort fo thing.

After reading this the first thing I noticed is that you jump 2 PD canopies contained in a Javelin....I would belive those are the two companies who very clearly sponsor the most people.

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I can name at least 5 DZ's I've been to where the student gear is at least 20 years old - and I don't even travel that much. There simply is no excuse for a DZ to be jumping sweethogs with FXC's when the latest "hot shit 4-way" is jumping the latest top of the line toy for no charge.

I see this type of gear too and it totally bothers me. My first job at PD was in the parachute maintenance department (were people send their old busted stuff to get fixed) I was the PMD coordinator, so I was the liase between the repair people and the customer. You would be frickin amazed by what people will jump....very ragged out stuff. Very I could tell you stories all day.

But DZO's should be more responsible. One thing that PD does with tandem mains is that every one that comes in for reline or a patch or someting, is they get a MANDATORY tear test, I've called DZO's to tell them their canopies failed, FAILED and they still want them back to patch and jump! (a tear test is 25lbs of pull force applied to the skin of the canopy, really not very much pressure)

I had one guy that ownd a dz freak out on me because we did the test, I'm happy to say he no longer owns a DZ (not because of anything I did but shit will allways catch up with you)

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Manufacturers need to get their priorities striaght. Even from a business sense, I would think if students are jumping good new gear during their progression, they'd be likely to buy that same brand of gear once their off student status.

It is not the responsibility of Manufacturers to babysit business owners. Ive seen tiny little cessna dropzones with impeckable equipment. Because they have a plan.

Manufacturers already (mostely) see to it that they are paying attention to the needs of businesses. For instance pricing.

The MSRP's for student equipment are already lower than sport. I will use my companies MSRP's for reference, go to any manufacturer's website and look at the differences.

our Sport Mains, $1699 and $1599 all sizes
our student main (the Solo) $1599 for the 230,250, and 270. No raise in price, take in to concideration the raise in raw material costs and sewing time to build a 270 square foot canopy vs. a 120? (zp material is about $8 a square yard)

The Smart reserve $899 sport sizes (99-210) same price for the big daddy 250, once again all that much more laundry, fabric, tape, lines, sewing.

The big daddy is the rig. for US, and again most manufacturers, our Icon sport is $1699 and our student is only $1499 still all the options, plus more sewing for adjustible harnesses and all the little things that go along with student specific rigs.

So I think manufacturers do go out of their way, but accepting lower profit margins, in an already low margin business.

And as you know almost all manufacturers sell direct to dz's because in most cases dz's are distributors for them, or are buying large orders. And you don't even need to be huge or buy them all at once. If you come to a manufacturer, and say I plan to replace all my student gear (10 or 80) and I only need 3 now and I plan on doing the replacement over a 2 year period I bet you are at least going get wholesalee pricing.

I'm working on a little different plan for our student gear, since we have a smaller distributor network, but that is super secret stuff at the moment.

As for the plan. The way I've seen it work is you as a DZO need to have a schedule, for both replacement and repair. You can't have all your tandems out for reline at once but you know on average they need to be relined once a year, so build a timechart of when you can be wihout what. You know that shit needs to be replaced periodically too.

From each AFF Jump which has some ammount of profit, you should set up an account for each piece of equipment. Student system 1. Each time student system 1 is used in a jump you take $5 and put $4 in an account for replacement and $1 in the repair account. In 1000 jumps on that specific system you can replace it with a brand new system from your account, and you will have had a grand for relines and that sort of thing. And that isn't even factoring in what you can sell the old system for when you do get a new one. A starting dz will be better served with a 3 year old system with only 1000 jumps on it than some of the junk out there.

Either way, it can be done. How some DZO's squander their profits on new bling bling rims for their 64 impalas is not the responsibility of the companies that build them the products that facilitate their livelyhood. You don't see Airplane companies discounting airplanes or fule....I think by provideing lower priced items, and usually offering wholesale options for DZ's as a true sign that these companies are fully in support of providing these businesses with a better shot at survivability.

I've been to a lot of dz's probibly 150 all over the world, and I've seen some of the small ones that you know don't make that much gross, have a very good system and be very well run, and i've seen some big ones that are crankin not put a lot of the profit back into the business.

I have a great Idea for a tandem sales system but I'm too lazy to type it......you'll see it when our eventual system is TSO'd

"Those who say it cannot be done, should not interrupt those who are doing it"

[rjf98 0]

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Who do I think should be sponsored? imho, those who are involved in the sport on a full time basis and who are in a position to and have adequate gear knowledge to advise other jumpers about gear selection are the ideal jumpers for a manufacturer to offer sponsorship to.

Name another sport where those heavily involved in the actuall selling to end users get the full sponsorship? This is NOT a personal attack, this is me asking a question. From what I see NO professional sports stars sell a damn thing retail. They are the best at what they do so they must be using the best equipment... that's why I want it.

I know of more than one jumper who has used that type of analogy in the type of container he is buying. I would think it works better for jumpsuit, but here is the quote. "I see airspeed jumping javelins and the knights too, I want what the best are using, they must be using it for a reason" Like I said, I think that would be closer to the truth for a jumpsuit, but it's not my line of thinking it's his.

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I say full time because those are the people who are making an investment in the sport as a whole by making it not just their sport but also their career - a career that doesn't offer much in the way of financial gain.

This smacks of entitlement. I again don't want this to be a personal attack, but just because you choose to make an investment in the sport doesn't mean it HAS to give back to you. Sometimes, those that don't invest as much are just better, or more lucky and they get the sponsorship. I don't think sponsorhips should really exist for a dealer. They can already get the stuff at a discount. They will sell what they see as the best product for them to sell (read what brings the best profit margin) that is the capitalist system at its best. Note that in an earlier post I had some reservations about instructors being sponsored. While I like the idea, I just think students need to understand that up front. It does harm the objective view of an instructor if he or she is sponsored.

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Instructors (both student and discipline specific), riggers, dzo's and gear salespeople for canopies, containers and jumpsuits and camera fliers for video related equipment (helmets, video accessories, video specific jumpsuits). These are the people that new jumpers (or experienced jumpers looking to get into a new discipline) look up to and who's advice they trust.

Precisely why I have a small problem with these people being sponsored. How can their opinion be considered objective if they are sponsored. Professional competitors have no duty to be objective to those not in the know.

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Additionally, most of these jumpers have invested quite a bit of their own money in getting to the point they are at. Sponsoring competitors seems to me to be more of an altruistic move but as you mentioned it does have advertising and R&D benefit to the manufacturer.

We disagree on altruistic. I can't imagine any company giving something away for less than full price without getting something in return. WHO CARES? It's ALL about R&D and advertising.

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What to do about a sponsored jumper who isn't keeping up their end of the bargain? Dump 'em. Sponsored gear shouldn't be free. I feel that as a sponsored jumper I have a big responsibility to the manufacturer to represent their product in the best possible light. I may not have sent a check to Velocity Sports for my rig but the fact that I jump and speak highly of their container has created a number of sales that may not have happened if I were jumping something else.

Completely agree. NOTHING is free in this world, you pay for it one way or another. Either you are going to work for that company as a sponsored jumper or you are going to pay your money like the rest of us.

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That said, although I jump an Infinity I won't always recommend the Infinity to someone asking me which container is the "best" - because as most of us know, what is the best container for me, my canopy and body sizes, my definition of comfort and good looks and how I skydive may not be the best container for someone else. Luckily for me, Kelly also knows that the Infinity isn't the right choice for every jumper.

I think Kelly does an outstanding business and far be it from me to question his methods. I think if I knew you were a sponsored athlete for me and weren't recommending my gear I'd want an explination. That being said. Kelly more or less has "sponsored" me. My rig was burned up in the fire. He replaced it for free. While I had already made my determination for a new infinity, I do feel like I owe Kelly some advertising and good word. He's earned it from me and will continue to get it. Great product, great customer service, great options, great price! Thanks again Kelly I'll always be in your debt for what you did.

Finally. Again Lisa I didn't want this to be an attack thread, just my observations and points in contrast to your own. I am REALLY hoping that you didn't take it that way. Aubs: Hope I really didn't hijack this thread.

Still lovin' this thread... good stuff here.

[Unisyn 0]

Sponsorship is a necessary evil.

I believe the biggest problem in the industry is that it isn't necessarily what the sponsored jumper has done but rather who they know.

Manufacturers MUST set specific guidelines.
1. Limit the amount of FREE gear

2. Give good reasons for sponsorship. I.E. National champions, 25 years instructing, etc.
Nothing pisses people off more than finding out that you paid DISCOUNTED retail price and the local idiot swooper just got sponsored.
3. Be willing to revoke sponsorship when abuses occur.
Don't continue to sponsor someone because of what they did. Sponsor them because what they are doing for you NOW!

[aubsmell 0]

No Rich your not hijacking, but providing some great feedback, this whole dropzone.com thing is pretty fun, however Ive been in my office until 10pm every night this week (accept jumping yesterday) because my productivity is shit with all this typing.

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Note that in an earlier post I had some reservations about instructors being sponsored. While I like the idea, I just think students need to understand that up front. It does harm the objective view of an instructor if he or she is sponsored.

I actually agree that it does take away some objectivity, however I will argue a few points.

In the position I'm in I want to achieve my moral goals which are actually based on stewardship, you can understand that as a Marine, if feels good to contribute selflessly, and work in a service you feel is something worth your dedication and every effort. It is very difficult to do that in the business setting, I worked as an investement banker before and found it wholey without a soul, so I feel in the business of skydiving I have found a happy medium. However, I won't try to hide the fact that this company hired me to sell parachutes and parachute containers to skydivers, by any means necessary. The odd catch is these aren't just nameless faceless customers, my customers are my friends, and people I find myself in a social setting with on a constant basis and to whom I'm often held accountable.

So the question of coming up with a program like the ASIP that for all intents and purposes buys the objectivity of the instructor and in that light puts the student in perril of being force fed aerodyne gear at the hands of his or her instructor is a valid point. However I believe that there are many natural checks in the program, that take some of the edge off of that effect.
-because it is not a dropzone sponsorship there is not any sort of pressure to be a part of it, instructors have to apply and be accepted, in essence they have to whole hartedly seek the agreement.

where sometimes when a dropzone has a sponsorship agreement with a company or a staff gear program, the instructor sometimes gets the line, we we here at dropzone A jump container Z and if you want the sponsorship deal you'll jump container Z. Or you can jump your stuff, but we'd reall you rather have you jump staff stuff for uniformity.

With Aerodyne's program, it is a sponsorship of the individual, we'll build the system for them in custom colors, if their dz wants them to remain uniform, I would have no problem building it to match.

Say you are one of the people that I'm putting into the system right now, that really has no experiece with the system, and they get it and don't think it is the bees knees....which is bound to happen, you can't please everyone. They can just choose not to push the product, and in a year when the agreement is up, they can just sell it and they got a fat custom rig for an insanely low price and will proably make money on the system, or at least break even. No loose for yous.

In my opinion, no matter what you have, weather you paid for it or got it for free, if you are happy with it or indifferent to it, if someone asks you for your opinion the average human will not be objective...most will talk up what they are using to validate their decision for purchasing or accepting that product. Usually to make themselves feel better.

I drive a Jetta, I would rather have a Ferrari, however I could afford a jetta, it is a nice car, I would highly reccomend it to any one who was looking for a 4 door sedan, regardless of their goals. It is a good car. I paid exactly what the dealership would accept for it from me.

Our sponsored instructors are going to have a very interactive relationship with Aerodyne. and it starts with marking them. I just got the proof back for our instructor patches. Not just a generic aerodyne patch (we'll have those too) but a patch that has that Aerodyne Sponsored Instructor logo and the words "Aerodyne Sponsored Instructor" under it, it is actually a really cool design. So when Sam Jumpinbean gets his A license he won't have any illusion that this guy telling him why the Pilot is the perfect canopy for him is just a satisfied customer. Although I hope and believe that the instructors will be satisfied customers too, but it will be clear that he has an affiliation with the company. We are also getting some fat tshirts made that will be available only to instructors in the program.

Also, back to using my position at this company to make the sport better. We all know that there are some instructors out there that don't give out the best, most up to date information. This program is an opportunity for Aerodyne do really deciminate high quality information and encourage instructors to know the products they jump, and to know the products they are representing to people, not just students. And if we have to pay them gear to encuourage them to lear so be it. We all have our motivations, if the program helps one instructor gain access to information that helps one student or experienced jumper make a safer more informed decision than it will be worth it.

Not saying that I think there as anything wrong with the staff equipment deals....again sales at it's finest, but without much follow up. and if some dropzone came up to me and said, "I want work a staff deal for all my instructors, packers, riggers, manafest people....I want this percent I can get it from joe schmoe...here is my credit card...and jimmy's and johns" don't think for one second I would sell them 5-6-15 containers or systems (I'd try to add one of my distributors somehow) but I'd do it, and I wouldn't say no no no we only do ASIP, I would try to encourage that for the people who would benefit from it, but again you have to meet morals with business goals.

[aubsmell 0]

that is the last time I write a really long post when I'm this tired, my grammar, spelling and basic hold on the english language is highly suspect at the moment.....Kolla I know you are reading....keep it shut....

Aubrey

"Those who say it cannot be done, should not interrupt those who are doing it"

[skybytch 259]

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just because you choose to make an investment in the sport doesn't mean it HAS to give back to you. Sometimes, those that don't invest as much are just better, or more lucky and they get the sponsorship.

I'm not saying that either the sport or gear manufacturers HAVE to give back to anyone. I certainly don't feel I'm entitled to anything simply because I sell gear. I'm saying that my opinion is that those who have made an investment in the sport are more likely to be good representatives for a manufacturer than are those who are in and out in under five years (like most jumpers) and never make the move to being a full time skydivers.

I was in the sport for almost 10 years, had earned and used both instructor and rigging ratings, and had been selling gear for 3 years before I got my first piece of sponsored equipment. The manufacturer approached me on that one, not the other way around. When I approached Velocity Sports regarding a sponsorship it was after going through the same decision process that most jumpers go through when picking their gear. I chose to approach the manufacturer of the container I thought would be the best one for me. I can only speak for myself on this - had I been offered a 50% discount or not been offered sponsored at all I still would have ordered an Infinity. I think (hope) that most sponsored jumpers feel the same. So far I've had my Infinity for over 2 years, and so far Kelly is happy with his decision to sponsor me. To me that says alot.


Competitors, instructors, camera fliers, riggers - all have invested heavily in the sport long before they get to the point where it would benefit a manufacturer to sponsor them. Not only financial investment, but the investment of their time in the sport.

Who do you think is more likely to stay in the sport? The guy who has been jumping for two years or the guy who has been jumping for ten years? The fact that someone has been in the sport for longer than the average three-years-and-I'm-done says a lot, imho. I'd think a manufacturer would want to sponsor someone that they think is likely to still be jumping five years from now.

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don't think sponsorhips should really exist for a dealer. They can already get the stuff at a discount. They will sell what they see as the best product for them to sell (read what brings the best profit margin) that is the capitalist system at its best.

You may have a flawed view of how big (small) the profit margins are in this industry. Name another retail industry where an item is sold for well over $1000 and the retailer makes less than 15% gross profit on the sale. Most retailers would laugh at that little profit for that much investment.

Maybe I'm an exception (I know I'm not but anyway)... but I try hard to get my customers what they want - not what I can make the most profit on. And honestly, I make about the same amount on a container sale regardless of which manufacturer builds it. I will let customers know that I jump an Infinity if they ask, and I'll tell them that I like it (because that's the truth), but I'm not going to pressure them to buy one if they have their heart set on a Mirage, Javelin, Wings, etc.

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I think Kelly does an outstanding business and far be it from me to question his methods. I think if I knew you were a sponsored athlete for me and weren't recommending my gear I'd want an explination.

Kelly was sitting in my shop one day when one of my customers who was in the market for a container stopped in. She's... err not tall, and was planning to buy larger (190-ish) canopies. Kelly agreed with me that the Infinity would likely not be the best container choice for her - an Infinity sized for the canopies she was planning to buy would have been too long for her torso.

I've been approached by another container manufacturer regarding a fully sponsored container. This guy knows my philosophy on gear sales (get the customer what's going to work best for them) from reading my posts here on dz.com. Since I'm already sponsored I respectfully turned the offer down. Point is, it seems to me that manufacturers respect someone who is upfront and honest with people about the products they are sellling/representing.

No worries on the attack thing; your opinion and mine differ on this one. I'm thoroughly enjoying reading what others think about this subject.

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[rjf98 0]

Lisa: Thanks for letting us disagree.

I think that a manufacture would approach you to be sponsored says volumes about your dedication to the sport and the amount of people you are able to reach.

I don't think it really matters to a manufacturer if someone is going to be in the sport for 10 years or 2 years when they decide to sponsor. What is important are the following questions:
How many times is this person going to be in a published photo?
How many competitions are people going to see this person compete in (and place in)?
What are my sales numbers going to do when other jumpers and non jumpers see this person jumping my gear?

We've got some world class skateboard guy that jumps in Elsinore. Can't remember his name, which might not help my point here but... Say he only has 500 jumps. His fan base however because of what else he does is through the roof. If he can bring a product to the forefront through the other fan base then I'd sponsor him. Question is... how far is he willing to go to bring his fan base into skydiving, and can they afford it? Kids buying T-shirts and sunglasses are one thing. Convincing 18 year olds to skydive and make the kind of investment necessary to continue skydiving is another.

Lady, you are the kind of person I would do business with on a daily basis. Integrity, knowledge, genuine care for the customer and the manufacturer.

Aubs: As the ASIP program sits, I applaud it. I really do think that you are on the right track, and I agree that you have some checks and balances that help keep an instructors integrity when it comes to advising on gear sales, especially the requirement for the patch. You are breaking new ground and I really hope your sales respond to it. Email on the way.

[BlindBrick 0]

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The college subject is close to my heart, so this is more me than Aerodyne speaking....a preemptive sorry for breaking your balls...

No problem, you asked for opinions and if I was willing to offer one, I should be willing to listen to your reply.

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I don't think it is in the best interest of companies to sponsor college teams.

If I was in a college club and on a college compition team, here is what I'd do.
[snip]
Then Solicite the manufactruers for that BULK discount, or better yet the smart guy would ask the manufactuer to help them work with one of their distributors to get the best discounts for all your shit, helmets, altis, suits all of it. like their sub distributor price for everything for that team.

Hmm, hadn't thought of the one-stop shopping idea. thanks,

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One point of advise from a working college graduate to a college student. If you thank life is going to hand you anything....you are wrong.

Hee, hee. I'm a non-traditional student so I'm not really working under those assumptions. The vast majority of what I have, I've earned the hard way. I gave up my $30k+ a year job to go to school and now squeak by on $300 a month, like you said nothing is handed to you.

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Let me peel away from knocking on you for a second. And tell you what I do for college clubs.
[snip]

It's nice to know that Aerodyne is willing to work with college teams, and I appreciate you taking the time to break this stuff down rather than just blowing off my opinion as "not feasible".

-Blind

"If you end up in an alligator's jaws, naked, you probably did something to deserve it."

[aubsmell 0]

Thanks for 3 cents JP.

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One method for teams wanting sponsorship I found useful when woking for a jumpsuit manufacturer was to offer incentives. I would sell them suits at a discount then offer the incentives in two ways:

1) Incentives on sales. Have your name attached to X number of sales buy the customers, and you recieve free suits the following year.

2) Competion incentives. Place or medal in specific competitions (Nationals) for and recieve a partial or total refund on what we charged for the suits originaly.

1) This is kind of the plan with the ASIP, very spelled out, keeps it clean on both sides. Meaning if my good friend sends over 4 referrals I still won't give him gear, and on the converse if Bubba (who happend to impregnate my girlfriend) sends over 18 referrals, I can't say "sorry dude you were just thisssss close. Try agian next year."

2) I like the idea of that, but instead of refunding the money, in the case of athlets, maybe some form of credit or just better level of sponsorship in the future. I think that is the way a lot of companies do it at present.

It the case of the way we are handeling things I'm interested to see how it plays out once (when and if) we start handeling athlets. I think it will almost inevitably happen. And I'm sure there is going to be some crossover, like an ASI who starts, or joins a team and since he or she already has a relationship with us will persue a different type of competition arrangement.

"Those who say it cannot be done, should not interrupt those who are doing it"

[aubsmell 0]

I keep on postin and postin, I really didn't intend for this thread to be...Hey everybody listen to Aubrey, but I'm trying to reply to all or most of these posts to let each person that posts know that I'm really listening and it's just my way of respecting what you have to say....because I know that when I tell somebody something, especially when they asked for the imput as I have, the thing I hate most is to feel as if I've been dismissed.

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With canopies... the first thing I would say is that if a customer orders something custom (or otherwise) and you can't get it to them like right now... offer a demo while they are waiting. Might not be the color they want, and it might have a few jumps, but it is the same style and size. Hell put your logo all over it.

not saying that this would be impossible, but just expensive, and it would have to be paid for with the profit in canopies, which as I've said there just isn't that much of. You could expect to pay at least 1.5-1.8 tiimes what you pay now retail for the canopies. Just think of the numbers you'd be dealing with.

Lets use median numbers say 4000 sport canopies (the big companies sell more the small companies sell less) per year. 1000 of those are reserves, that leaves 3k say 1500 of those are bought from stock patterns off the shelf that leaves us with 1500 custome orders spread over the year. So you'd need at least 5-700 demo canopies (all makes and models shapes and sizes) and staff to keep them in repair, ship them out and process them in. It could be done, but again somebody would have to pay for it and in the end that would be you.

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Charging people to put your logo on their stuff. I really think that is sick and wrong, and I won't pay extra to advertise for anyone. Now, you want to go and give me some sort of discount to put your name all over my stuff, or even charge me to not have it.. well that's ok with me. The other thing done wrong is poor estimation of delivery times. To know you're going to wait 8 weeks is one thing. To be told 8 and wait 12 just plain SUCKS!

I totally hear you there, I'm assuming you are referring to the containers, some companies charge for embroidery, but I think that is pretty lame. As for putting the companies logo on the bottem of canopies, that is pretty expensive, I haven't really given a heck of a lot of thought to offering that. I think canopy specific artwork is a cool idea, that could be an option that people are charged for, but that is a little different.

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Not really. The fact that the stuff is TSOd says it all for the most part. Electronic stuff on the other hand needs to be more open about what goes on inside the piece of equipment. Skydivers talk to riggers all the time as well, and the community has plenty of 10 lb heads that can analysize this stuff. It annoys the crap out of me to pay the money Airtech charges for a battery that should be able to be purchased in Wall-Mart.

I was kind of waiting for someone to say this....I have thought a lot about this....and believe me I am totally guilty of defending safety with the TSO by line. Someone will say is this thing bla bla bla, and I'll say (to save myself a 4 hour conversation) well it has been certified under the strictest qualifications of the TSO 23d and the JTSO.

And to be even more honest with you....I don't even know exactly what being TSO'd actually means! I know what I've been told, and I know parts and pieces, and you can damn sure bet that as soon as I finish typing this post I'm going to spend the rest of this beautiful afternoon sitting in the sun on my porch reading everything I can find out about it on line. (wireless internet is the bomb)

When you say that something has been TSO'd remember the very first containers in our sport were TSO'd, would you jump (I hate to keep jumping on the Wonderhog) but would you run out and jump a wonder hog? (to be honest I would) but I think we can all agree that safety has come a long way.

You'd be suprised that a lot of the stuff we buy and jump today is being manufactured under very old TSO's and the products don't even resemble the ones that were origionally TSO'd. And as I've learned, it doesn't take much to make a chang on an item without having to have it recertified. Don't think for a second I'm inditing other companies with these comments either, because I'm sure we will be useing these loopholes to the best of our ability a few years down the road when the voice of the people is finally heard and we add that optional legstrap change purse. If you do something cosmetic and you do these little changes one at a time and you send the engineering drawings in with a letter, I think every 6 months or so, you're all good.

So I look very lightly on the tso defense for my own personal safety. I think the stuff out there is safe, but mostly because of people like Bill Booth, who have set the bar so high that anybody with 1/8 of a brain wouldn't even concider bringing anything to the market that wasn't rock solid.....and even still there will always be those chinks in the armor.

If you look at the rig building industry it is very incestuous. I hope someone else out there can add some in to this for me and please correct me if I'm wrong....I'm pieceing this togeather from years of conversation I've been involved in and evesdroped on.

It's like frickin 6 degrees of seperation.

People who have worked for Bill Booth the grand Grand Pooba- Jeff Johnson (designs mirage) Kelly Ferrington (deigns Infinity)

People who worked for Kelly Ferrington- Dave Singer (cad designer for Sunpath)

I'm pretty sure Henery who owns wings had something to do with the first Javelin, or something. I'm sure someone out there will straighten me out.

For our Icon we hired two Engineers Michele Auvery (designed the Atom) Dom Hayhurst (he designed the Nero, I think that was the name of it) either way, both had designed something before.

Does any one else know the where this stuff came from...no wonder why it all sort of looks the same. Every where I go with the Icon people say hey that looks just like a______ fill in the blank because almost every container has been named (except the wonderhog)

Damn I run on for hours, but either way, back to my point....I question the catagorical answer "it's tso'd"

But then again for the most part I have a healthy fear of all the stuff I jump out of an airplane wearing, but I agree with you, I believe in the safety of the stuff if it is in good shape and it is relitivly new.

"Those who say it cannot be done, should not interrupt those who are doing it"

[dgskydive 0]

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Precisely why I have a small problem with these people being sponsored. How can their opinion be considered objective if they are sponsored. Professional competitors have no duty to be objective to those not in the know.

I myself am sponsored by three companies at this point. All the way from free stuff to 50% off. I may be biased in my opinion. But we are the ones I think that really get the word out and help folks with the right choices. I can only speak for myself and a few others that I know. Skybytch being one of them.

I think the manufactures do a very good job of who they pick for these types of sponorship. I am always careful to tell people what my affiliations are and make sure they now that I will sell them whatever fits there needs the best. If the manufactures pick the right people this shouldn't be a problem. Most of the time they have watched a person for a while and see what they say and how they represent different products before offering them a sponsorship.

Dom

[freeryde13 0]

as someone very new into this sees it. the whole gear indutry is a little hard to deal with.....but first let me start by complimenting the whole industry for not putting profit at the cost of safety and quality. thats real cool.

alright here comes the the bitching......er hardships i've endured would be a better choice of words.....anyways....in no order.

no demos. there is nowhere i have found where i can try different canopies and containers and stuff. and somr=etimes the canpy company doesn't make the container. and one dealer can get some gear but not all the gear i'm looking for. it seams to me that different dzs get close to certain manufacturers. so it can be hard to find what i want.


i tried to buy a new aerodyne rig... the chuts, container. everything. but i couldn't find a dealer by a place that i could test it , in the time your company was haaving a sale on the items i wanted....so luckily i found a new ued rig that had everything i wanted down to he color. ...anyways.......cool of you to put yourself out there like this....thanks.

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people see me as a challenge to their balance