Moab, Recommended # of Jumps?

[tfelber 0]

Those are some very good points, Clint. Now for $200 bucks, how many jumps do I need to have? Because that's what's really important. How many jumps must a person have before you feel comfortable taking them around Moab, for free or otherwise?

[clint 1]

Around 50 BASE jumps. And that's around, again jump #'s isn't everything. Confidence, experience and being current means alot.

It's different for every single person. Someone with 50 BASE jumps and 120 skydives or someone with 50 BASE jumps and 3000 skydives.

You should be experienced enough and current too when you visit Moab. You don't have to be but it's nice. You can tell if someone knows what they are talking about or if they are full of it and dont' have a clue.

I've walked down with this one guy a year ago, had 40ish BASE jumps and 200skydives, first 'E'.

The whole way up, I was asking the usual questions when taking people to 'Tom_ston_ for their 1st 'E'. He had no business being there. Couldn't answer the questions. So I told him he wasn't ready and I wasn't comfortable letting him jump.

If you show up here with 30 jumps, havent' jumped in 6 months, do you think that is smart, in Moab?

If you and some friends show up, and we are all at work and they don't know anyone, dont know any exit points but want to jump.

What do you think they do or what do you think they've been told to do when they get to Moab? Call Apex, Clint, Shelley, Matt they will show you around.
We all work 7 days a week.

None of us have a problem going out with jumpers anytime when we are not working.

It just seems that the 'newer' jumpers are all coming out here and trying to get their 'E' with under 25-30 jumps. Sure they jumped at the bridge and were current but haven't don the drills because it's a bridge.

THey might have practiced object avoidance but it's a bridge, no REAL SENSE of URGENCY. No wall in your face.

IE: 2 weeks ago, jumper came out, super overhung, best in moab, maybe. Anyway, had a 90 right and pulled left rear riser down about 6-8", and it didn't turn. Then went to toggles, no problem at all.

We asked him why he didn't turn completely with risers. He said the canopy wasn't turning. He pulled only 6-8" and for only 2 seconds, which really isn't that much if you think about it. I pull 1.5-2 feet if I'm heading towards a nasty wall that wants to kill me!!!

Food for thought.

Clint MacBeth
Skydive Moab 435 259 JUMP
M.O.A.B. Mother Of All Boogies Sept 19 - 23, 2012

[NSEMN8R 0]

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The whole way up, I was asking the usual questions when taking people to 'Tom_ston_ for their 1st 'E'.

What are the questions you'd ask?

[JaapSuter 0]

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What are the questions you'd ask?

The questions to which you'd find answers if you had taken a first jump course, like I recommended...

[NSEMN8R 0]

I'm hoping to get to one this spring.

Just curious.

[CanuckInUSA 0]

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We asked him why he didn't turn completely with risers. He said the canopy wasn't turning. He pulled only 6-8" and for only 2 seconds, which really isn't that much if you think about it. I pull 1.5-2 feet if I'm heading towards a nasty wall that wants to kill me!!!

I was on a jump the other day where you get considerable amount of time under canopy from the exit point to the landing area. Anyway, I flew most of the way on my rears and while my monster of a boat BASE canopies are big to begin with, it's true that in order to get the canopy turning and turning fast, you need to really pull down on your rears. My canopy would hardly be turning if I only pulled 6-8 inches.

Not that I would know what the wall looks like (knock on wood), but it's good to know what sort of canopy control inputs work and which ones don't.

Try not to worry about the things you have no control over

[lifewithoutanet 0]

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perhaps in addition to a discussion re. # of jumps, we should consider a discussion of applying training / education / peer pressure to ALL of us to limit the incentive to do TARDS / gainers / flippy-do's in general at such "unforgiving sites" until your skills are rock solid.

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I don't "think is a safe # of jumps to visit Moab."
Because there is no safe jump to be had there. I do think we are seeing a lot more ill-prepared people coming to jump, numbers achieved or not. Some ill advised jump procedures are also being followed there that are causing some problems -- some people are getting away with them and some aren't.

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I don't think greater jump numbers are going to decrease the incidents or near incidents in BASE jumping. How many of these recent cliffs strikes were by jumpers with over 100 jumps? over 50?

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As someone else mentioned, I don't think jump numbers are the best measure.

These are just a few of the quotes that are sticking out to me and I felt compelled to include them in this post. My opinion on this matter is that Moab should really be treated with the respect of any other location where you're not a local. If you blaze into town and burn an object that I or my crew are jumping, whether it's an encounter w/ local law enforcement or emergency services, we've got to deal with it once you're gone. The same is true for anyone visiting your local sites.

Moab is a little different from your average urban/populated area, though. The most prominent locals are Skydive Moab and Apex, and as pointed out by Clint, they've got businesses to run. There are other locals, though and still, contact w/ a local or not, respect should be shown. The ramifications of any sort of fcuk up in Moab damage not only the scene for the locals, but for the BASE community as a whole. Moab is a destination hotspot for all of us and we need preserve our freedom to jump there. It's our freedom to lose.

Plenty of people will say and have said that jump numbers aren't everything. That is true. But when a local doesn't know you, they have maybe three meters on which to judge you as a jumper. Not necessarily in order of importance, they are:
1.) Jump numbers.
2.) Reputation.
3.) Attitude (including preparedness, caution, skill, etc.)

Of those three, which is the most significant factor that would give you a feeling for a jumper, site unseen? What else could you really base an opinion on? Attitude and reputation bring personalities into play. Jump numbers are quantitative. The more jumps you have, the more times you've been under canopy in a BASE-specific environment. There's something to be said for skydiving your BASE canopy and getting experience under that wing, tuning your brakes, etc, but you have a lot more time to react out of a plane and it's just not the same. So, jump numbers may not be scientific, but a number is an absolute and does tell you something about a jumper that can't be skewed by personal differences or perceptions or misperceptions. If you're alive and uninjured at 50 jumps, it does say something. Personally, I think there's less difference between a 50 jump wonder and a 100 jump wonder than someone w/ 25 jumps and 50. As an experienced jumper who I greatly respect once said to me, "40 some odd jumps...you've just started to realize what you've really gotten yourself into. You probably thought you knew around 20 or so, but now you're really starting to get it. That'll happen again around 70 or so."

It's a renegade sport, but ultimately it's up to all of us to exercise respect and restraint. You're doing yourself no favors taking a great step forward off the cliffs of Moab, but you are when you're making another trip to Twin for object avoidance drills, packing errors (twists, lineovers).

-C.

[JaapSuter 0]

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I'm hoping to get to one this spring.

Awesome, I'm glad to hear it.

[Bigwallmaster 0]

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In Reply To
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...BASE videos...do tend to skew what for many is the reality of jumping and present it instead in a sanitized and palettable form which turns real danger into real cool...

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I'm curious if you have seen The Ground is the Limit and what your opinions of that film were?

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Or better yet, the original "Rage". In many scenes there's no music, just alot of footage that depicts the real deal. The scenes from San Fran or other night time jumps they do paint a realistic picture of the seriousness of BASE. It's the first video I ever saw and I was freaked out by the idea that I was still interested in doing this shit.

And for the record Sabre210, I know you're not saying that all BASE videos portray the "it's all good" and fun side of the sport.

Cheers,

J.P.

[sabre210 0]

I have seen rage. It's one of my favourite BASE jumping videos out there. Even now.

Just to be clear, I haven't got a problem with BASE movies that have music all over them. I really like Continuum I and II (i bought the K&D sessions because of it), I love 1st and 2nd BASE because of the music. I love Dead Air Dummies (but i know the gang so i'm biased of course)

I just believe that using music in BASE videos, and by editing the footage in a certain 'music video' way steers the viewer into very specific emotional places, which by it's very nature means they are being manipulated or distracted, and that could mean they fail to appreciate the reality, the gravity, the very real dangers of jumping at certain sites and attempting certain types of jumps like aerials, tards/ roll overs, multi ways.

With regards this thread I was wondering if the net result of so many of these videos/streaming mpegs is to create a culture within which new jumpers mistakenly under-estimate the complexity, difficulty and dangers inherent in BASE jumping.

Just a thought that could partly explain why both Clint and Pope are finding an increasing number of ill equiped jumpers turning up at what are IMHO the most dangerous jumps you can do (short delay cliffs).

ian

[deadmanwalking 0]

I just got some cliff skydiving gear! How do you get to Moab? Could you take me Calvin?

Symmetry doesn't matter.

[Calvin19 0]

Yeah! Some guy told me about this great cliff, just over 200 feet! I will pack your chute for you if you want!

-SPACE-

[KrisFlyZ 0]

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Just a thought that could partly explain why both Clint and Pope are finding an increasing number of ill equiped jumpers turning up at what are IMHO the most dangerous jumps you can do (short delay cliffs).

I don't know if the people turning up at Moab to jump can be attributed to BASE videos. It is the only other place where you can jump legally.

I have jumped a big cliff earlier than recommended but Moab, I will visit and watch others jump on my first visit(when I have quite a few BASE jumps first).

Kris.

[tfelber 0]

I think that is a good number, but you really don't know if they're telling you the truth or have the knowledge to make the jump until you talk to them. I don't want to encourage regulation, but I do know there are some people jumping some stuff that they probably shouldn't be.

One such jumper after going off Toomy told me that it wasn't a very bright idea and they didn't plan on doing it again until they get some more experience.

Another thing that sometimes gets overlooked is the cleanup... Who would have gotten the canopy off of MG if not Jimmy. I'm sure Jimmy felt some motivation to get it down since it was his boogie, but what if it happened to someone on an off weekend venturing out with there friends?

[TomAiello 25]

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I don't know if the people turning up at Moab to jump can be attributed to BASE videos. It is the only other place where you can jump legally.

There are actually quite a few places in the Southwest US where you can jump cliffs like that legally. It's just that everyone knows about Moab. Partly that may be because of the videos, but the history there is much older than that, and includes the presence of a BASE gear manufacturer, and, even before that, a series of organized BASE competitions.

Basically, the Moab secret is out, and there's no going back. There are plenty of other secrets that aren't out yet, though.

-- Tom Aiello

[email protected]
SnakeRiverBASE.com