Blown toggles. why not leave them in the rings?

[Calvin19 0]

Ok... so...
OTHER than being able to clear a line over, and feeling nice and pretty when your flying with toggles in hand, is there any other reasons to leave brake lines out of the rings for slider off?

I ask because i blew a toggle on a "black diamond" jump the other day and if it wasnt for some serious -pull it out of my arse- jedi canopy flying, (and a little water) i would not be walking, for sure. It was the most technical jump i had ever done, and i blew a toggle.

its just, on a slider off jump, if your in a canyon almost as tall as the Royal Gorge, half as wide, with a landing area the size of a parking space, NO outs, its REALLY F***** NICE TO HAVE TOGGLES!

ps-my wing loading is pretty high, im 155lbs under a 220, (im ordering a 260, this week)

so, please, i would love to hear the other reasons, because im very close to just leaving the lines in there for a few slider off jumps and putting the WLO toggles on.

or quit base entirly and rope jump for the duration.
noooo, i couldnt do that...
cheers

[nicknitro71 0]

The only way to blow a toggle on slider down/removed is improper rigging (unless the line or the loop break of course).

Learn this and use it: LRT.

edit for spelling

Memento Audere Semper

903

[460 0]

Or a unexpected faulty toggle design.

Looks like a death sandwich without the bread - Steve Deadman Morrell, BASE 174

[NickDG 23]

It's a matter of degrees of hurt. I'd rather drop the remaining toggle and "jedi" myself to landing rather than spin in with a line over.

The only thing in BASE that can claim more saves than the line over modification are John Dragan's boats at Bridge Day . . .

NickD BASE 194

[Calvin19 0]

I completly agree that i may have stowed it wrong,

(however, i dont think i did)

that said, i disagree on that being the only way could happen.

line twists? risers sliding against each other? riser slap, the toggle is caught on a camera or a lip ring as it brushes by and blows the line? a reach and -almost-miss?

and hell, poor rigging? if one screws up stowing, the toggle will be there even if it blows.

My question was what are the other reasons for leaving them out of the rings.

i was not looking for a spelling lesson or a lecture.
but thanks.

ps-i understand you are a senior rigger, and i say this with all the respect it comands.

[Calvin19 0]

"I'd rather drop the remaining toggle and "jedi" myself to landing rather than spin in with a line over.

The only thing in BASE that can claim more saves than the line over modification are John Dragan's boats at Bridge Day . . . "

I agree, but again as i said, OTHER than line overs.
i would think that using WLO toggles would be ok, even though they are harder and slower to clear than just throwing a toggle.

[pBASEtobe 0]

You could use this setup of mine.

Ring Release Risers

Here's more of a detailed description of them.

[nicknitro71 0]

Keep the sarcasm for yourself, that was not a personal attack on my part. So you know, the vast majority for blown toggles are due to piss poor rigging that by the way includes piss poor maintenance.

I assure you that I will never have a blown toggle, really.

Said that, route the brake lines in the rings and let us know how it works for ya if you obviously don't see the advantage in leaving them out.

Memento Audere Semper

903

[Calvin19 0]

forgive the sarcasm, i apologise.


i got kicked out of my english classes for talking smack to the teachers. some things wont change.

I dont plan on jumping with the lines in the rings, there are a lot of things a lot of brothers died figuring out, and i dont want that to be pushed aside. i just want some ideas, I see the advantages of leaving them out, but that really scared me. (didnt stop me from jumping it again 4 hours later) ((but i did spend an extra minute or two stowing brake lines, nicknitro, i do concede that)

i will work on my spelling,

again, sorry. i never was to good at being put in my place.

[Calvin19 0]

Thats awsome! thank you.
i assume it works about the same speed as WLOs, so i might just try those at the potato for awhile.

[pringles 0]

If you do a search for line mod you will find quite a few threads on this topic. http://dropzone.com/cgi-bin/forum/gforum.cgi?post=958550;search_string=line%20mod;#958550

Here is another one. Tom even mentions haveing put a handfull of jumps on Russels guide ring release set up. http://dropzone.com/cgi-bin/forum/gforum.cgi?do=post_view_flat;post=1665567;page=2;sb=post_latest_reply;so=ASC;mh=25;

Matt Davies

[pBASEtobe 0]

I've never used WLO's but I think my setup works faster than them. All you have to do is just pop the toggle to get the ring to release. Just like you would with any ordinary toggle.

[TomAiello 26]

The reason to route them outside the toggle (to clear a line over) has already been discussed to death, I think.

Let me add a couple thoughts:

1) I know several very experienced jumpers who do not use the LRM. I don't personally do this, and I do not believe it is good practice. But, if you search this forum, you can find some discussion of it. I would never recommend or teach this technique, but the presence of the tailgate greatly reduces (but does not eliminate--I have good video of a tailgated line over) the chance for a line over. Some people think the tailgate puts the odds game into a territory they feel comfortable risking.

2) I have seen many premature toggle fires that were not the result of poor rigging. In every single one of these cases the toggle was a metal pin style (not a cloth stub). I believe that the metal pin style toggles are prone to premature release during the opening sequence. I have several theories as to why this is the case (the one I'm most fond of is that the metal pin can slip around inside the pack tray a lot more easily than a cloth stub). But the bottom line, for me personally, is that I will not jump toggles that use a metal pin to retain the brake setting on any slider down (non test) jump.

3) The only reason I can see to use the metal pin style toggles (because they are line release toggle that operate with one hand) only applies on slider up jumps, where the ring will be retaining the toggle anyway.

4) The recommendation not to use WLO's slider down, which was made by the manufacturer, is, in my opinion, for wear and maintenance issues. The metal pin will bend over time from the force of the slider down openings. If you are committed to serious gear inspection, and willing to replace your WLO's at regular intervals if they show sings of bending, I can personally see few reasons not to use the WLO's, in combination with the guide rings, on slider down jumps. If this is your preference, just be aware of the risks.

5) I think that Russel's ring-release risers are a better solution for this problem. I've got them in my gear bag at the moment. Matt, with Russel's permission I'm willing to send them to you so you can try them out and see what you think.

6) Be aware that releasing the line with a WLO toggle in the event of a line over is still going to be a slower response than simply tossing the toggle with the LRM.

-- Tom Aiello

[email protected]
SnakeRiverBASE.com

[TomAiello 26]

Quote

I've never used WLO's but I think my setup works faster than them. All you have to do is just pop the toggle to get the ring to release. Just like you would with any ordinary toggle.

Having tested both systems I can say for certain that your system works faster than the WLO's. It's completely invisible to the jumper.

Of course, your setup doesn't release the line from the toggle (to allow it to slide through the slider grommet), so it does not address the main issue that WLO's are intended for.

-- Tom Aiello

[email protected]
SnakeRiverBASE.com

[TomAiello 26]

Are your toggles of the pin style (Vertigo, Gravity Sports) or the cloth stub style (Basic Research, CR, Asylum, Morpheus) closure?

-- Tom Aiello

[email protected]
SnakeRiverBASE.com

[nicknitro71 0]

Quote

2) I have seen many premature toggle fires that were not the result of poor rigging. In every single one of these cases the toggle was a metal pin style (not a cloth stub). I believe that the metal pin style toggles are prone to premature release during the opening sequence. I have several theories as to why this is the case (the one I'm most fond of is that the metal pin can slip around inside the pack tray a lot more easily than a cloth stub). But the bottom line, for me personally, is that I will not jump toggles that use a metal pin to retain the brake setting on any slider down (non test) jump.

I forgot to mention that. I also know of several instances of that, again poor rigging from the manufacture stand point if you asked me.

Tom, are they still being made or pretty much everybody switched to cloth type?

Memento Audere Semper

903

[TomAiello 26]

Quote

Tom, are they still being made or pretty much everybody switched to cloth type?

I don't know. I believe that Apex still has both styles available. Certainly the WLO's are a pin style, by necessity of their design.

-- Tom Aiello

[email protected]
SnakeRiverBASE.com

[pBASEtobe 0]

Quote

with Russel's permission I'm willing to send them to you so you can try them out and see what you think.

Sure, go for it.

[FIREFLYR 0]

~i would think that using WLO toggles would be ok, even though they are harder and slower to clear than just throwing a toggle.
~~even though they are harder and slower to clear than just throwing a toggle

"One flew East,and one flew West..............one flew over the cuckoo's nest"
"There's absolutely no excuse for the way I'm about to act"

[JaapSuter 0]

Quote

6) Be aware that releasing the line with a WLO toggle in the event of a line over is still going to be a slower response than simply tossing the toggle with the LRM.

Do you base this on experience or speculation? I have used my WLOs at least ten times and thrown my toggles at least the same amount of times. Granted, never in a real line-over scenario, but many times trying to be as quick as possible after opening (after a hypothetical heading correction).

I have come to the conclusion that a WLO release can be just as quick as a LRM release if not quicker. It is also cleaner.

The initial phase of grasping the tab to release it might take a little longer, but then ripping it lose is incredibly fast (faster than ripping of an entire toggle) and the line dissappears quicker because of the tension than were you to throw the entire toggle away.

When throwing the toggle away, there is a risk the toggle hangs up in other lines and stays there. That's why you want to throw the toggle away far. With the WLOs only a line release with a clean end, the tension on it pulls it away quick and cleanly.

If I had more experience and I would have more statistics on the bending pin issue, I would strongly consider switching from LRM to WLO for all my slider down jumping. I wouldn't be surprised if at some point in the future, possibly with a stronger and even faster WLO design, I'll make that switch.

[JaapSuter 0]

Quote

I assure you that I will never have a blown toggle, really.

That seems a rather strong statement in a sport like this.

Anyway, I've reached up for risers on a jump once and ended up knocking off one of my toggles. I am using pin toggles (providing more data for Tom's theory) but I'm most definetely meticulate in setting my toggles, always making sure they are pretensioned and always doing one last check in the packtray before closing the container.

I'm with Calvin on this one and would like to see more research into a slider-down WLO system.

[TomAiello 26]

Quote

Quote

6) Be aware that releasing the line with a WLO toggle in the event of a line over is still going to be a slower response than simply tossing the toggle with the LRM.

Do you base this on experience or speculation?

My experiences testing both systems. I found that by the time I had identified the pull tab on the WLO's and gotten my hand to it, I'd already (before releasing anything) consumed more time than I had by just grabbing and pitching the toggle.

Imagine if it were a quickly spinning line over. I'd bet then the difference would be even more pronounced (it's much easier to grab the whole toggle than to fiddle out the red tab in level flight, I'd imagine the difference would be even greater in a spin).

-- Tom Aiello

[email protected]
SnakeRiverBASE.com

[TomAiello 26]

Quote

If I had more experience and I would have more statistics on the bending pin issue, I would strongly consider switching from LRM to WLO for all my slider down jumping. I wouldn't be surprised if at some point in the future, possibly with a stronger and even faster WLO design, I'll make that switch.

Have you considered using Russel's risers?

-- Tom Aiello

[email protected]
SnakeRiverBASE.com

[leroydb 0]

post a link to the posts he talked about it in for those lost

Leroy


..I knew I was an unwanted baby when I saw my bath toys were a toaster and a radio...

[NickDG 23]

Since it wasn't mentioned yet . . .

The reason we went to Zoo type toggles (toggles with steel pins) is we had a few instances where during a lineover the jumper couldn't get the cloth toggle out of the cat's eye on the brake line.

A steering line over the top of the canopy will exert much more pressure than normal. On one of these I saw a jumper trying to clear the toggle and because it jammed all he did is pull the whole riser down and further increase the rate of turn.

We tried coating the cloth toggles in bee's wax but that didn’t help and they picked up a lot of dirt and grim. While not scientific you can simulate the problem by having someone pull up on the steering line while you try to fire the brake. You'll see it sometimes (depending on the design of the toggle) doesn't take all that much force before you can't release it. With a steel pin you could put a thousand pounds of pull on the line and the pin will still release.

Toggles it seems have always been, and probably always will be, a weak spot in BASE gear.

For Russel, who lands mostly in the water, (for now anyway ) I'm wondering if doing away with the steering lines in their present form might be an idea? You could replace the steering lines with much shorter lines that cascade into the "c" lines and be done with it. You'd have to experiment with length to find an optimum between opening characteristics and forward flight but the shorter lines should be less prone to lineovers and he could steer and land with the rear risers.

We aren’t going to solve the toggle problem unless we think outside the box and find a new way to steer and land canopies. So let's experiment with Russel . . .

Maybe someday someone will invent a cloth hinge and we can go with ailerons or spoilers for steering?

NickD BASE 194