Blown toggles. why not leave them in the rings?

[JaapSuter 0]

Quote

and he could steer and land with the rear risers.

I wouldn't mind seeing a canopy design without steering lines and the rear risers cascading earlier so you can steer by controlling the D lines. Effectively you would have four rises going up, instead of four. As far as I know, some paragliders have a riser for each line group.

Those rear-rear risers could have toggles on them.

Of course there is still the chance of having a line over on your C and D lines, but oh well...

Edited to add: No wait, that's a silly idea. Without some way to "stow the rear-rear-riser" your flight range would be limited by whatever it is on opening. Never mind.

[NickDG 23]

I don't know, many jumped rounds from buildings at one time and they didn't steer or move forward all that well.

A ram air, even with a fixed brake setting, would still out fly and out land a round.

Nick BASE 194

[JaapSuter 0]

Yes, but you would still want minimal forward speed on opening in case of an offheading (like rounds and a properly tuned DBS on a square).

If that is your 'default' setting that is how fast your canopy is going to fly, period. That doesn't sound go to me. I want minimal forward speed on opening, and then be able to 'let something up' to fly faster.

What is that thing 'we let up'?

[lifewithoutanet 0]

Quote

2) I have seen many premature toggle fires that were not the result of poor rigging. In every single one of these cases the toggle was a metal pin style (not a cloth stub). I believe that the metal pin style toggles are prone to premature release during the opening sequence. I have several theories as to why this is the case (the one I'm most fond of is that the metal pin can slip around inside the pack tray a lot more easily than a cloth stub). But the bottom line, for me personally, is that I will not jump toggles that use a metal pin to retain the brake setting on any slider down (non test) jump.

Two of my rigs are Bombproof Neos and use what I've been calling LRPTs (see attached pic). Knowing your opinion of these (and considering it held more weight and experience than my own), I brought this up to Martin of Asylum over Labor Day weekend.

When properly stowed, with the brake lines pre-tensioned, a hard opening has the potential to blow the pin and release the brakes, but as there are basically two points to stow (pin and toggle), the likelihood of having the toggle come unstowed and release from the riser are very slim. The pin will take the brunt of the force, lessening the impact on the stowed toggle. These were my thoughts and Martin seemed to agree. Martin, If you're on here and need to clarify anything I've missed, please do.

I didn't get a chance to discuss this w/ Kevin McGuire, so Kevin, if you're around, what are your thoughts on this style of risers?

-C.

[TomAiello 25]

I've seen that style (the old Gravity Sports style) toggle blow on opening as well.

There's really only one stow point--the pin. If that pin goes, there is nothing really holding the toggle in place. The stow band over the top of the toggle isn't a load bearing point, and it's going to have to take quite a bit of force.

-- Tom Aiello

[email protected]
SnakeRiverBASE.com

[lifewithoutanet 0]

Quote

We aren’t going to solve the toggle problem unless we think outside the box and find a new way to steer and land canopies. So let's experiment with Russel . . .

That typically involves a test jump by me first, Nick, so with self-preservation in mind, I can't support your suggestion.

Thanks for the info on the load placed upon a toggle in the event of a line-over. I missed this when I was writing my post about toggles w/ pins.

-C.

[lifewithoutanet 0]

Quote

If that pin goes, there is nothing really holding the toggle in place. The stow band over the top of the toggle isn't a load bearing point, and it's going to have to take quite a bit of force.

Well, nothing but another stow for the toggle stub. I'm not saying that this design is foolproof, but I do think it has its merits and that the force on the toggle, if the pin does go, will be much less than the initial force on the pin.

In the case of the ones you've seen blow, do you know if human error played a factor? Were the brake lines pre-tensioned? Were the stowes intact prior to the jump or did they show signs of wear?

-C.

[TomAiello 25]

Quote

The reason we went to Zoo type toggles (toggles with steel pins) is we had a few instances where during a lineover the jumper couldn't get the cloth toggle out of the cat's eye on the brake line.

Nick, wasn't this in an era when the cloth stub actually stuck directly through the cat's eye?

I haven't seen this be a problem with modern LRT style toggle setups (where the white loop reduces the overall force to the toggle).

Have you (or anyone) seen a case of a modern LRT style toggle jamming into the control line during a hard opening (or malfunction)? I am unaware of any instances of this happening on modern gear.

-- Tom Aiello

[email protected]
SnakeRiverBASE.com

[TomAiello 25]

Quote

When throwing the toggle away, there is a risk the toggle hangs up in other lines and stays there.

I had not considered this.

Is anyone aware of a case where this has happened? It does sound possible, I just haven't actually heard of it happening. But given the very low number of LRM saves in the tailgate era, I guess that's not surprising.

-- Tom Aiello

[email protected]
SnakeRiverBASE.com

[JaapSuter 0]

Quote

Is anyone aware of a case where this has happened? It does sound possible, I just haven't actually heard of it happening. But given the very low number of LRM saves in the tailgate era, I guess that's not surprising.

Yeah, it's both a good thing and a bad thing that we don't have more experience with this.

However, I've somehow been taught to throw the toggle to the side and behind me, away from any other lines. I'm not sure who taught me that, but it makes sense to me.

Whether or not you actually care or have time during an actual line over is another issue.

[NickDG 23]

>>Nick, wasn't this in an era when the cloth stub actually stuck directly through the cat's eye?<<

Yes it was . . .

NickD BASE 194

[Calvin19 0]

" toggle fires that were not the result of poor rigging. In every single one of these cases the toggle was a metal pin style (not a cloth stub)"

Yes... my toggles are short metal pins.
I have, since starting this collum, decided to male my own toggle/riser setup. using cutaway cable AND a cloth stub, and i will test at the bridge.

The risers are already made...


Thabk you all for all the input. this is the first technical collum i have ever started, it turned out well.

[nicknitro71 0]

How about this:

The proper way to stow the brakes is LRT hence while loop (WL) into the eye of the bake line, loop into the ring, toggle into the loop.

Now imagine a second white loop (2WL) that runs right below the existing one or above it. Now you pass the WL though the eye, then the ring. At this point you pass the 2WL into the normal white loop and finally the toggle into the 2WL.

Can you picture the three-ring idea here? The force on the toggle itself would be greatly minimized.

Memento Audere Semper

903

[TomAiello 25]

Quote

Can you picture the three-ring idea here? The force on the toggle itself would be greatly minimized.

Why not use another metal ring instead of a second white loop?

-- Tom Aiello

[email protected]
SnakeRiverBASE.com

[Calvin19 0]

I think i might try that...
After tacking my new risers, i remembered why cutaway cable is such a pain, it has no stiffness. I would need a smaller ring to keep the loop from bending the cable and folding then pulling it through the ring, creating a wonderfull toggle lock or just losing the toggle for good... again.

I cant make the ring smaller, because i dont have a bar tach machine and if the ring is smaller it limits the brake line freedom when sliding through it when one would route the brake line through it(sliderup)

I like your idea of minimising the forces on the actual toggle tab, but i cant sew a new loop into my risers, i have a -kinda-bar tach machine an hour away i can use, but i am going to try to put a gromet tab (like on a cutaway) on the riser at the toggle stow, to fold over the ring, so one can route the loop through the ring, then through the gromet, then stow the 4 or 5" of cutaway cable in a curved loop (because it runs into the end of the riser an 3" and i want more toggle travel before it unstows)

[nicknitro71 0]

The toggle cannot go through the ring

You want leverage not additional layers...

If you think about it with slider down/removed, we are not using any de-multiplying strategies; we just pile up a ring and a toggle on top of the eye via the while loop.

I hope it makes some sense.

Memento Audere Semper

903

[TomAiello 25]

Quote

The toggle cannot go through the ring

I think I am very confused.

Can you post a picture of your idea?

I was still thinking the toggle went through the white loop. Just replace the first white loop (WL in your example) with a ring. Then 2WL (the one the toggle goes through) is still a white loop (now it's the only white loop).

Or heck, why not just put a whole 3 ring system on the toggle, while you're at it?

-- Tom Aiello

[email protected]
SnakeRiverBASE.com

[Calvin19 0]

I think he means the toggle cant get sucked throught the ring and become "blown"



and your right, nicknitro, that is what im trying desperatly to do here, keep the toggle in place, re invent the wheel.
of course, i was never a big fan of wheels.

[nicknitro71 0]

Let me articulate the idea better (it sounds like a joke).

On slider up we slide the eye pass the ring and inset the toggle. This creates a de-multiplying factor because we are effectively using the rig as a pulley.

With slider down we do not have such a luxury or at least not to the extent of slider up setting. Moreover the forces on the brake lines are greater on slider down.

The LRT works quite well especially with cloth toggles. However, by adding another loop we can take advantage of our beloved pulley. "Gimme a lever long enough and I'll lift the world".

Here is a pic of it (pardon the roughness).

The green loop is the 2WL that can be easily installed on the risers.

With this set up, we can take advantage of de-multiplying forces.

I'll put the "LRLT" set up on tonight and jump it on the week-end.

Memento Audere Semper

903

[980 0]

Quote

I haven't seen this be a problem with modern LRT style toggle setups (where the white loop reduces the overall force to the toggle).

Have you (or anyone) seen a case of a modern LRT style toggle jamming into the control line during a hard opening (or malfunction)? I am unaware of any instances of this happening on modern gear.

may not be exactly what you are thinking of, but I rember BD03, Lonnie ended up with a very interesting line/toggle/ring configuration after taking a slider off (maybe it was slider down) to something like 5.5 seconds...

the opening snapped the one brakeline, but I believe it pulled some toggle into the ring before snapping....

[jalisco 0]

This worries me. With this setup, it may be difficult to release your brake lines.

I say this because I have often had to pull down on the brake lines further (i.e. after pulling the tab out of the loop) in order to pull the loop out of the eye in order to go into full flight.

With this set up, I could imagine the 2nd (green) loop lying across the ring after you pull the toggle tab out. Between friction and leverage, you might find it difficult to pull the green loop through the ring just by pulling down on the brake line.

[nicknitro71 0]

Good point.

I put the loops in last night and I was playing with the system. Indeed it requires a bit more force to release the brakes when they are under tension but the force on the toggles is greatly reduced, they stay loose even when lots of force is applied to the lines (that can also be not a good thing).

I guess the optimal solution as Tom said is to have a three ring release with "miniature" rings.

In the mean time I stick with the "normal" set up that's been very good to me thus far.

Memento Audere Semper

903

[460 0]

pbasetobe's toggle design:
yellow cables need constant attention for nicks and brittleness. brittleness is a particular issue in extremely cold environments.

Looks like a death sandwich without the bread - Steve Deadman Morrell, BASE 174

[TomAiello 25]

Quote

...yellow cables need constant attention for...brittleness...brittleness is a particular issue in extremely cold environments.

Is this from the specs for the material, or from experience?

I know I met some Russian jumpers a while back who were using yellow cable instead of pins (I believe it was adopted from European freeflyers, who did that for skydiving believing the yellow cable to be more secure). They had used their yellow-cable equipped rigs without incident through the winters in Russia (which, I am given to believe, are fairly cold).

I've never played with the yellow cable at temperature extremes. Maybe I'll try throwing some in the freezer to see what happens.

-- Tom Aiello

[email protected]
SnakeRiverBASE.com

[Calvin19 0]

agreed, i have used some yellow cutaway cable for some pretty serious (non-parachute) release applications, and never had a problem with it getting nicked/bent. if you have extra cable and swedges/tool, its very easy and inexpensive to replace.