What do do , who to trust?

[JoeyRamone 0]

Hello everyone. I am just wondering how many times any of you have experienced a hospital stay from base jumping?

I understand a few people like to talk big on the base area but do not let people know the truth about the accidents they have had.

I feel I have the right to ask a potential instructor ( base jumping instructor) If he/she has had an accident and what it was or caused from.

I had a friend contact a referral base instructor. This person stated "they can teach me to base jump", they have over 500 jumps. After the fact I was told by a few trusted skydivers that this
person was unsafe and has had a few serious hospital stays for being reckless. This person denies these facts and stated they have never had an injury.

What do I do?

Would you tell people how you got hurt, what did you do wrong and what you would or will change to be at the top of the
safety envelope?


Tim

[base736 0]

Seems to me this is like the always-popular "should I replace my pilot chute" question. At the end of the day, it's your ass on the line. When you're standing at the exit point, the last thing in the world you want is to be wondering if this guy's trustworthy.

Maybe the guys at the dropzone are freaking out over nothing. A lot of skydivers see even very well-executed BASE jumps as reckless. Or maybe they're spot-on. You need to find a place where you KNOW the answer.

If you have to ask, then you really don't have to ask...

Edit: One of these days I'll learn to proofread before I post.

[JaapSuter 0]

I don't think there are many people with over 500 BASE jumps, so if you PM around a little (don't drop his name here) you should be able to find out more about his reputation.

I personally feel that most people with 500 jumps will probably know what they're doing, regardless of hospital stays. BASE has a very small margin for errors so if they wouldn't know what they were doing, they'd already be dead or paralyzed. Unless, of course, their luck bucket was fully loaded. Either way, other people will know.

Don't forget that you have always your own intelligence too. Even if you could fully trust your mentor, there is no harm in treating everything he says with a healthy dose of skepticism. I've met plenty of "do-as-I-say-not-as-I-do" people that, from my perspective, do reckless things. It's within their comfort zone though. As long as I don't imitate them, I can still learn from them.

[Sean621 0]

i would ask him who taught him before you do anything...i would then ask him where he buys his gear then maybe ontact the manufacturer of said gear and see what they say about him...ask him how many objects he has jumped,slider up/down experience...all that jazz....i aint an instructor but i sure as hell would show a potential student any scars/zips/mangled body parts i had just to ram home how bad it can get...at the bottom line i would say if you aint happy then dont do it...also why not speak to Tom A about his course or one of the manufacturers about a course...at least you will be sure of who youre getting...

http://www.extreme-on-demand.com

[wwarped 0]

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I had a friend contact a referral base instructor. This person stated "they can teach me to base jump", they have over 500 jumps. After the fact I was told by a few trusted skydivers that this
person was unsafe and has had a few serious hospital stays for being reckless. This person denies these facts and stated they have never had an injury.

What do I do?

your potential instructor is flawed and makes mistakes. he is subject to hangovers, fatigue, and lapses in judgement. while he probably has been hurt, these injuries contribute to his knowledge base.

but I still don't know who he/she is...
the above can be said about anyone.

you must trust your gear and yourself. never completely trust your instructor. that is why instructors want you to ask questions and participate in discussion sessions. you need to own the information.

you also might not agree that something is safe that your instructor swears by.

you must find YOUR comfort zone...

and let's face another fact. different people communicate differently. some styles may not work for you. some like a drill sergeant, some like the surferish, "hey dude" guy.

read a few recent posts and you'll also realize BASE jumpers define "injury" different than skydivers. your potential instructor's injuries might be minor by BASE standards, but brutal by skydiving standards.

DON'T PANIC
The lies in learning how to throw yourself at the ground and miss.
sloppy habits -> sloppy jumps -> injury or worse

[RhondaLea 3]

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I feel I have the right to ask a potential instructor ( base jumping instructor) If he/she has had an accident and what it was or caused from.

It might make more sense to ask if your instructor has had the same accident twice. The second question to ask would be if any of your instructor's students have ever been hurt, and more particularly, if the mistake that hurt them is similar to the one that hurt their instructor.

Everyone makes mistakes. The litmus test is whether someone learns from their mistakes.

Me, I'd rather be taught by someone who has been hurt and learned something from it, because that person knows there's no such thing as bullet-proof.

Finally and perhaps most important of all, the best teacher is not always the person who is outstanding in the execution of a particular endeavor. One of the best instructor-types I know--someone who has extensive knowledge, who is very clear in communicating information and who is one of the most safety-conscious people I've ever met--still managed to do some serious damage to a body part a few years ago. All that says to me is that he should probably stay away from low bridges with bad landing areas, not that he isn't qualified to teach.

rl

If you don't know where you're going, you should know where you came from. Gullah Proverb

[Faber 0]

funny shit is that skydivers dont like BASEjumpers as BASE is a unsafe activity,compared to skydiving.
I dont really care about how trusted skydivers you spoke to,if you get the same statesment from BASEjumpers i would concern..

By the end of the day its not about you trusting some trusted skydivers,but YOU need to trust a BASE jumper,if you dont do,then find another person or dont do it at all...

About getting hurt you cant really say a jumper is safe or not..
how many skydivers do you know that you count as safe but still got injuryed?........

BASE aint a safe sport and thouse who dont get killed or hurt while their BASEcarier are lucky,not only good but also lucky..

hope you realice this before you enter the BASEworld,if not your time hasnt come yet...

sorry my rather defencive post but if you dont trust the guy why then ask others?its not me or others who should learn,but you... its all about making your own choices in this sport.. if they were correct you´ll find out some day...

by the way i broke my fib n tib really good on a perfect condition jump.. by rearrise stall my canopy and get stuck in the dirt in my plf...

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What do I do?

only you know...

Stay safe
Stefan Faber

[JoeyRamone 0]

Thanks everyone who replyed.

Tim

[NickDG 23]

Asking a non-BASE jumping skydiver for advice is like asking a scuba diver about the qualifications of a mountain climber. As for experienced BASE jumpers not revealing past injuries, well the ones I know (including me) hold those episodes as badges of honor. One fellow I know, who had more than his share of BASE injuries, when asked will tell you every injury stemmed from an original mistake. The big sin in this sport is repeating the mistakes of others, or worse, passing on bad instruction that will eventually catch up with someone.

The evolution of BASE has gone through several stages. In the first stage no one knew what they were doing. At that time we are only skydiving from objects. Slowly we learned BASE is a different sport with its own rules. In the mid-1980s to about 1990 we were all pretty much on the same page.

Today, learning to BASE jump is more convoluted and can become an exercise in frustration. In earlier days people who began BASE tended to be not only more experienced parachutists, they were also more self reliant. This is more a knock on us than on you. We have allowed BASE to become too accessible to the masses. It is one thing to become well known in the BASE community, its another to use BASE to become well known in general. The showmen (you know who you are) suck people into the sport without the consequence, or the ability, to look after them.

Sometimes I wonder if I were twenty years old today, if I would start BASE jumping? Knowing what I know now when I see a photo of twenty or thirty people standing on Kjerag, you may say how cool that is, while I think, oh boy, probably half of them shouldn’t be there. I didn't start BASE jumping when I did for any of the more noble reasons like furthering mankind's knowledge and celebrating its spirit, no, I started because of the X factor, I started because it was new and wild and it's neither of those things today.

So my bottom line advice to you is this; you aren't ready. In 1978 I saw fixed object jumping for the first time and knew it was for me. But, I also realized I wasn't ready yet and didn't actually make that first BASE jump until some years later. So in the meantime soak up what knowledge you can and if BASE is really something you want eventually all the tumblers will fall into place and it will happen. The common wisdom throws numbers around like 150 or 250 skydives before BASE, but in this sense "common" is a bad word. BASE used to be a freight train you ran along side of, and then you grabbed on and hung on for dear life. Now it's a passenger train where you sit comfortably and a conductor comes along to punch your ticket.

With the increase in participants and the corresponding rise in injuries and deaths I believe we need to re-think some things. I answered the phone for years at Basic Research and dispensed the current wisdom on when and how to start BASE jumping. I couldn't work there again nowadays as I wouldn't sell a BASE rig to anyone with less than a thousand jumps. I was right then and I'm right now. What happened in the meantime is we failed to address the problems the masses would have entering BASE. We put out the welcome mat, invited them in, but had nothing in the cupboard to feed them . . .

NickD BASE 194

[cah75 0]

NickDG,

Which individuals have the right to decide who enters BASE? Someone with 200 BASE jumps might say you need 1,000 skydives before you make a first BASE jump, someone with 500 BASE jumps might say you need 5,000 skydives, someone with 1000+ BASE jumps might say you need 10,000 skydives, … different people have different opinions based on their experience.

If you try to restrict access to BASE too much I think you’ll get more people who find other ways to enter it on their own without any (or little) instruction and perhaps without correct equipment. Which is more dangerous?

[badenhop 0]

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Which individuals have the right to decide who enters BASE?
Different people have different opinions based on their experience.

The individuals who have the right to decide, apparently,
are those that are asked to instruct.
I have been asked to instruct.
Once, I said yes.
After my "student" made one jump, I retired from instructing.
My opinion, right then based on my experience,
was that nobody should BASE jump.

(My student did fine, not a scratch).

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If you try to restrict access to BASE too much I think you’ll get more people who find other ways to enter it on their own without any (or little) instruction and perhaps without correct equipment. Which is more dangerous?

Which is more dangerous for whom?
I am only a danger to myself when I BASE jump.
If your hypothetical untrained and ill equipped novice
goes ahead with jump plans, he is only a danger to himself.
Saving his life will not affect the danger of my next jump.

My advice continues to be, to any who ask, do not take up this sport.

==================================

I've got all I need, Jesus and gravity. Dolly Parton

http://www.AveryBadenhop.com

[Faber 0]

Quote

If you try to restrict access to BASE too much I think you’ll get more people who find other ways to enter it on their own without any (or little) instruction and perhaps without correct equipment. Which is more dangerous?

the Q werent if we restrected a student,the Q were that a student wasnt sure about a instructor...

i feel the right to say that i mean people should have atleast 500ram air canopy flights before enter BASEworld,it dosnt mean people will follow that but it means that when my time comes to instruct the person wont have less than 500 ram air jumps...
does that put a student into danger? oh well i cant care less in case he/she burn my local objects,if they dont listen to me anyway why would they then want me as a mentor???

by the end of the day people will go huck them self off if they want to,if they want my help they need to play some of my rules,then atleast i wont feel so bad if somthing happened as if i lacked on my demands...

Stay safe
Stefan Faber

[mattair 0]

I think a lot of us hold others to a higher standard than our own. Theres a lot of 'do as I say, not as I did' going on. Who here hasn't jumped something they maybe wasn't ready for in retrospect? how many of us haven't jumped in sketchy winds? It's the voice of experience. Being a baby to BASE myself I've got no doubt that in the future I'll look back on my early days and realise then how little I know now. Be that as it may, people are entering this sport with the same spirit and enthusiasm as the old school once had. To me it still is new and wild. I don't think anyone should be encouraged into BASE but I think sometimes it's more ethical to better educate the people who snuck in through sheer determination rather than make hard and fast rules based on how many times they've jumped out of a plane. I'm not saying it's right, Just how it sometimes is. Ultimately it's a personal decision what you do and who you trust. To me that's the true spirit of BASE.

[rickjump1 0]

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Thanks everyone who replyed.

Tim

One more. Tim, one of the most reckless and scary things I have ever done was jump off the bridge at Twin Falls last month (7times). I got to know and trust my instructor with my life very well before the jump. He knew his stuff and he reminded me that he had never lost a student. Take your time. There is no rush. BTW I could not buy complete base gear unless I took the course. The manufacturer would only agree to sell me a canopy to try out at the dropzone. Turns out I tried it out off the bridge for the first time. Also keep in mind that 16 ounce glasses of Moose Drool ale can creep up on you. That fucking bridge is like a magnet in my mind. Go for it. edited with beer

Do your part for global warming: ban beans and hold all popcorn farts.

[RhondaLea 3]

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I think a lot of us hold others to a higher standard than our own.

It's not about a higher standard.

It's about those very bad moments when you are reminded that you've outlived all too many of your friends.

But it's also true that each of us has the right to make his own mistakes--even if those mistakes are lethal.



Your life, your choice, even if the older and wiser voice says "Wait."

rl

If you don't know where you're going, you should know where you came from. Gullah Proverb

[vandev 0]

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***Asking a non-BASE jumping skydiver for advice is like asking a scuba diver about the qualifications of a mountain climber.

I will have to agree with Nick on this one....There is no other answer further from the truth....

To me skydiving has become as passive as say wake boarding.... simple ...predictable...and somewhat safe..... "safe" as a good friend who comes from the hay day of skydiving experience...." who are you trying to fool" when you leave the plane you are dead......you have 45 seconds to save yourself....." So please....not so much for the dramatics..... "you are pushing numbers"...

Today, learning to BASE jump is more convoluted and can become an exercise in frustration. In earlier days people who began BASE tended to be not only more experienced parachutists, they were also more self reliant.

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This again is true....we today have a vast accessible way for information at our finger tips.... 'like i say..."what the fuck did people do before cell phones"... i hate answering mine now and loved the fact before that i was unreachable......

Sometimes I wonder if I were twenty years old today, if I would start BASE jumping? Knowing what I know now when I see a photo of twenty or thirty people standing on Kjerag, you may say how cool that is, while I think, oh boy, probably half of them shouldn’t be there. I didn't start BASE jumping when I did for any of the more noble reasons like furthering mankind's knowledge and celebrating its spirit, no, I started because of the X factor, I started because it was new and wild and it's neither of those things today.

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agree and disigree.....Yes.. maybe there are thoes of us that shouldnt be there but that is life....what if the driver that died in a traffic accident and all of his 3 children and wife that died .....what if he was super observant that night and swirved a second earlier....they all would of lived...... Thats all life....thats just the way it is ...it takith and giveith....with no warning ....Everyone starts and finishes for there own reasons....Hell i am guilty of the same... I have only goals of Kjerag, swiss valley, france.... i have no ambitions of much else....Thats me though....these are my ambitions.....

With the increase in participants and the corresponding rise in injuries and deaths I believe we need to re-think some things.***

I agree fully... i will say that from me ....being 46 and have seen the carnage , triumphs and failures...that i have a different approch to my goals....

one...i am in no hurry ....but i wont be doing this when i am 56.....

two...i will accomplish my goals only by following the steps of the people i trust and are qualified to help me achieve my goals...

three... have accepted the fact that no matter how hard you train.. no matter who i surround my self with talent wise....my first jump can go completly wrong and i will die....

four...i have accepted three...that this is a higher risk than driving to work...."well...i live in Miami and driving to work is scarry shit.....trust me....


five....i can only think about all that have gone before me and assimalate that information to make the best choice for what ever i am going to attempt... Thats it...there is no perfect answer...or choice....or way to do that... It's your choice and your ass...


Think about what you are going to do on a real level of is it for you...or something else.... "would you do it if there where no pictures or video and would you feel the same if you could not tell a soul what you did...... I think there... is the answer Nick is trying to convey....

All the best to you Nick...stay well.......Chris

In the end...the universe has a way of working itself out.... "Harold and Kumar go to White Castle"

[Sean621 0]

Maybe a simple aid would be to raise the bar for skydive minimums to 500 with 100 crw or accuracy jumps in that 500 (signed off by someone)...surely courses arent that big a part of the manufacturers business that it would financially hurt them to do this?

It would keep a lot of the people waiting long lead times for rigs happier too because the builders could do some building instead of back and forth to potato land?

Surely it would also make people think twice about it if they have a more stringent entry criteria, the cash rich and lazy amongst them (which is quite a lot) would lose interest before they could achieve it.
However the back door entrants (oooooer shouldnt have said that) will always get into the sport but maybe it should be made harder to buy gear...the referral system used to be in place so whats happened to it now...in the not too distant past you would be checked up on if you were trained on the mentor student route in your home country before you could get gear (new or second hand)...that seems to have stopped...

Do i think any of this will stop people getting killed or maimed..not sure but i think i would help..A LOT.

http://www.extreme-on-demand.com

[NickDG 23]

The above is all well and good but it must be said that cah75 hit the nail on the head in a way. Who really has the right to stop anyone from BASE jumping? The reason he's right however may not be the reason you think.

Let's say that next year there's a sudden worldwide epidemic of 100 BASE fatalities and all of a sudden Bridge Day, PotatoVille and every cliff in Europe is shut down. So what? Is that going to stop us? No, because nobody can ever shut down BASE jumping. BASE jumping only requires a person, a parachute, and an object.

However, tomorrow four bomb laden skydiving terrorists could descend somewhere and skydiving is over, done, and finished . . .

So sometimes when I hear people making the argument that certain people are hurting the sport of BASE jumping it doesn't sound exactly right. BASE jumping is the ultimate unscrewable thing. We can't, not matter how much we f-it-up, lose our ability to BASE jump.

So there must be another reason we agonize over educating new jumpers and keep trying to come up with an entry formula that works. And that reason is because we revel in BASE, we talk about it, we show off our videos, we live and breathe it and our zealousness affects the people around us to the point they want to play too. But, we also have to be able to sleep at night.

So, that's what gives us the right to say who jumps and when.

And that's not to say worldwide, not across the board, but each of us can control BASE in our own little spheres of influence. We have that as a mandate, and it’s the only thing this sport demands of us. We haven’t got it exactly right yet, but we are getting better at it . . .

NickD BASE 194

[cornishe 0]

there should be no bar as its not one size fits all. Its time to take a FJC once you know enough about parachuting where you are ready to huck yourself off something without a FJC. Then you say to yourself, I better take a tour guide this first time around while they're out there for hire...

Having minimum requirements makes people strive for just the minimum.

One on one instruction, by a mentor who has at least skydived with you and has an idea on where you are it is what should be recommended.


.

Abbie Mashaal
Skydive Idaho
Snake River Skydiving
TandemBASE

[Faber 0]

rember that manufactors # of min. 200jumps is a bare minimum,if they raised this im sure that people would wait longer before enter the sport...

Look at US start whith your AFF in spring and by the end of the year you could have your BASE# sorry but some people rush too fast and might forget to learn instead of wearing cool ff suits at the dz instead of learning canopy skills that will save me from colecting their twisted bodyes somewere..

ego?yes im not a good but i think theres a reasson why people is getting killed and hurt more in this sport today than just 7 years ago...

I think that it has become a must or a cool thing to do rather than somthing the jumper him or her self want to.. then add the progression of BASE..

I were in TF just 1 week ago and a dear freind of mine already were told how to do gainers even as he had under 50 BASE and all of them from that bridge.. I have 250+ i want to do a gainer but im not in a rush.. i dont want to stall out on my back as he did and nearly kill myself(now his scared about that shit).

am i a sh!t? perhaps.. i dont care

Stay safe
Stefan Faber

[rpersi 0]

I agree with there should be no bar as its not one size fits all. Some people catch on more quickly than others and some people just never get it.

Whatever path you choose, don't settle. You must have a trust level and comfort zone with that instructor. Eventually, YOU will be the person standing on top of XX structure deciding if this does not feel right and it is your ass on the line.

[TomAiello 25]

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...surely courses arent that big a part of the manufacturers business that it would financially hurt them to do this?

I believe you are incorrect about this.

Plus, there are many non-manufacturer courses now available, where courses are close to 100% of that person's BASE business.

-- Tom Aiello

[email protected]
SnakeRiverBASE.com

[Sean621 0]

thats why i put a question mark at the end of the sentence...

http://www.extreme-on-demand.com

[TomAiello 25]

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Let's say that next year there's a sudden worldwide epidemic of 100 BASE fatalities and all of a sudden Bridge Day, PotatoVille and every cliff in Europe is shut down. So what? Is that going to stop us? No, because nobody can ever shut down BASE jumping. BASE jumping only requires a person, a parachute, and an object.

In my opinion, legal sites contribute greatly to safety (by encouraging and allowing currency and practice of skills). I think that losing them would surely set us back, not in terms of ability to jump, but in terms of reducing the risk of each jump, and building skills of jumpers.

-- Tom Aiello

[email protected]
SnakeRiverBASE.com

[DrewEckhardt 0]

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I had a friend contact a referral base instructor. This person stated "they can teach me to base jump", they have over 500 jumps. After the fact I was told by a few trusted skydivers that this
person was unsafe and has had a few serious hospital stays for being reckless. This person denies these facts and stated they have never had an injury.

What do I do?

Knowing how to do something, how to teach that subject, and how to teach that subject to a specific person are three different things.