How dangerous is base really ???

[freeatlast 0]

After a conversation the other day with a relatively experienced BASE jumper we wondered how much more dangerous is BASE now than say Swooping ???

Obviously there are different risks to different jumps and we were in agreement that Wing-Suit BASE seemd to be one of the most dangerous types of jump statistically but we see more and more instances of low hook turns leading to severe injuries and fatalities.

We were also aware that most BASE jumpers still accept that there is a high risk to BASE and so treat it with the respect that it deserves, whilst many low-timers at DZ's around the world seem to be rushing out to by the latest tiny pocket rocket in order to look cool and end up hurting themselves.

So we wondered if any of the number crunchers out there could give us their best approximation of the relative risk levels between BASE jumping and flying high performance canopies - particularly whilst being relatively inexperienced ...

NB PLEASE UNDERSTAND THAT I AM NOT SAYING THAT BASE IS A LOW RISK SPORT !!! I am just interested in how we perceive the risks of these two disciplines vs the (approximate) truth ...

[base736 0]

This topic seems to come up a lot. The problem, in my opinion, boils down to this... For one thing to be greater than another, both must be numbers. To say that the "risk" for BASE is greater or less than that for swooping implies that somehow you have a way of turning "risk" into a number. In that spirit...

Are we talking number of deaths, or number of injuries? If the latter, what kinds of injuries? Incidents per capita? Per jump? Per second of participation? Per year for all participants? In the U.S., or in the world? For BASE, from what sort of object? For swooping, under what sort of canopy? Or from all objects / all types of canopy? Very specifically, what do you mean by "inexperienced" for each?

My general impression is that, once one has answered these questions (and the others that will come up), one would find two things. First, the result would be so specific that only a few people would really agree that you'd nailed down "risk". And second, the numbers would be so low that you'd be well outside of statistical significance for both activities.

Why the interest in comparing the two sports?

Edit to add: In the interest of not repeating previous discussions, you might be interested in this thread.

[freeatlast 0]

I guess i was looking for a "best guess" average based on the number of injuries or deaths in both sports vs the number of people practising either sport ... I wasn't looking for an exact number mainly because, as you've so rightly pointed out, there are many variables ...

It just seemed to us that BASE is percieved as "High Risk" compared to the risks of swooping and we wondered whether the perception was justified ...

I am not looking for such a specific number that it becomes meaningless but more of a broader approximation based on approx numbers and gut feeling - I was simply looking to see what other people's opinion was ...

As for why ... because you really don't want to know what the other discussion was in the car on the way back from the object last night ...

- You'd have to ask MAC about that one !!! lol !!!!

[leroydb 0]

Are you asking about Perceived Risk VS. Actual Risk?

Therein lies a whole other discussion...

Leroy


..I knew I was an unwanted baby when I saw my bath toys were a toaster and a radio...

[CanuckInUSA 0]

You're mistaken by thinking that swooping is more dangerous than BASE jumping. Swooping is not safe and neither is BASE jumping. But swooping (when done right) is more of a science whereas BASE jumping can have unknown events happen on any jump that might not have been thought of before the jump. Neither discipline is safe and it's only through good judgement, training and experience that we can survive these two very fun aspects of parachuting.

Try not to worry about the things you have no control over

[freeatlast 0]

Bingo ... the crux of the question isn't how we analyse the statistics and which numbers we actually crunch but more of a question about whether we percieve one sport to be less dangerous than the other and if it really is ...

Leroy you hit the nail on the head and you are right ... it is a different discussion - in fact it's the one that i was trying to have !!!

I am well aware after studying statistics during college that a tiny specific sample can prove meaningless so i didn't expect a discussion about methodology - i was more interested about whether people perceive swooping to be dangerous in the same way that BASE jumpers perceive BASE to be dangerous ...

And I can reassure CanuckinUSA that I DO NOT PERCEIVE BASE TO BE LESS DANGEROUS THAN SWOOPING ... A fact that anyone who has seen me BASE can probably assure you of ... i said in my original post "please understand that i am not saying that base is a low risk sport" ...

I think BASE is a high risk sport with some variables that can be managed and some that will always be random ... But that's probably what i love about it too ...

[basebasebase01 0]

Hey bro why bother with this?



Sooner than later we all going to die
You might as well have fun, follow your dreams and always stick to the plan

Because the one second you dont you will die or get fucked up

Base, skydiving , ski ,working, migrating, people die all the time, only in america do people make it a big deal


just remember that your dreams are your dreams, and don't let people stop you

[base736 0]

I second the statement by my fellow Canuck. If you can imagine the sport of "swooping in moderately turbulent conditions", I think that would better approximate the objective risks that are important in BASE, but largely absent in Ben-and-Jerry's (that one's for you, Jaap) swooping.

Quote

people die all the time, only in america do people make it a big deal

You can't honestly believe that. A general fear of death is nearly universal. Certainly they've got their fair share of wailing funeral-goers in Europe, too. I'd call that a big deal.

[nicrussell 0]

In fact even animals mourn their dead. Gorillas and elephants for instance, and American Gorillas have still eluded being seen.

[friday999 0]

It's killing me (great choice of words, I think) that people keep talking about death as the great risk of BASE/skydiving.

It can be much worse if you survive. And most BASE jumpers I spoke to don't consider that possibility enough.

[Skinflicka 0]

Quote

It's killing me (great choice of words, I think) that people keep talking about death as the great risk of BASE/skydiving.

It can be much worse if you survive. And most BASE jumpers I spoke to don't consider that possibility enough.

You're right. I've survived many BASE jumps and to my horror I now am in perfect health, attractive enough to make Apollo envious and earning a six figure salary. Pass me the Derringer, Ringo...I'm done in.

$kin.

Prizes to anyone who gets to read my posts before Mr Aiello's son, Tom deletes them.

[vandev 0]

Quote

But swooping (when done right) is more of a science whereas BASE jumping can have unknown events happen on any jump that might not have been thought of before the jump.

I will agree with you here but as to the unknowns...i would say it could be a tie...

I am not even close to your level of experience in terms of swooping... i lived threw a bad swoop...bounce and that was that.

I have spent allot of time with highly experienced swoopers and even then...they get bit in the ass. from a usally unknown.

look at say Dwain...thousand jumps with nothing short of a scratch..then unknown bit in the ass...

I think every day is a unknown...and have to agree with basebasebase01.....we make a biggger deal about death in America...but also on how we die.


You see a car accident and say bummer...we see a skydiving accident and go oh my god....Makes little sense...

I remember in Jeb's documentry him saying, " you can't control your death, so stop trying to fool yourself ... and live your life"...

i will say that not based on overall averages that i have seen more swoopers die in the last year than base jumpers.....

and for Skinflicka always making me laugh....

In the end...the universe has a way of working itself out.... "Harold and Kumar go to White Castle"

[CanuckInUSA 0]

You will never hear me say that swooping is safe because it's not and sometimes we fly a fine line between a nice greaser landing and death. Plus there has been a number of recent swooping deaths which could have been avoided. Also about 1/2 of the canopy control related deaths are swooping. The other 1/2 is just poor decision making and poor canopy control.

Anyway ... there's a saying I like concerning BASE ...

"BASE jumping is not safe. But it sure can be as dangerous as you want to make it".

Try not to worry about the things you have no control over

[vandev 0]

Sorry Chuck ..you are correct....The actuall swoop verses the bad judgement low turn or heavy traffic collision is what you say is correct.....

In the end...the universe has a way of working itself out.... "Harold and Kumar go to White Castle"

[cesslon 0]

I think this could only truely be answerd by someone who has been in the sport a long time and met all the different personality types.

as someone may say its fairly safe if you were to only do certain kind of jump.

People may go into a sport with safety on there mind and say they will do the only the safest jumps
but then as there skills progress they will see more advanced jumps safer and keep pushing the limits.

so the main issue with working out how safe it is would be by what % of people will eventually push the limits as far as they can, putting them self at greater risk.

Sure someone might think" i'll only do PCA's into water from 30 foot bridges" which would be safe but how likely are they to get sick of it and want a bigger kick etc.


Dunno if this post made sense but I hope so.

[DrewEckhardt 0]

Quote

After a conversation the other day with a relatively experienced BASE jumper we wondered how much more dangerous is BASE now than say Swooping ???

Both are as dangerous as you make them.

Jumping from a 500' bridge over water with a huge golf-course smooth landing area and light winds is less dangerous freefalling a 200' cliff with a tight landing area and wind blowing into the cliff.

A carving approach under a moderately loaded canopy into a wide open field is less dangerous than aiming for gates following a hard 270 under a highly loaded canopy.

Comparisons between the two sports aren't meaningful.

[lawrocket 3]

Quote

Comparisons between the two sports aren't meaningful.

I agree. Comparisons of this sort are ALWAYS difficult to make. Furthermore, it tends to make people less aware of the danger, which can lead to craters, can't it?

"Oh, BASE jumping is less dangerous than swooping." Hey, 150 people per year get killed by falling coconuts. Still, I don't see many BASE jumpers out there who think they are mor elikely to be put in the hospital by a falling coconut than a jump gone badly.

This comparison stuff is silly. Rather than comparing risks of BASE to other activities, isnt' a more prudent use of time to examine the risks of BASE and then attempt to manage them as best as possible without regard to how risky an off-heading canopy is compared to a 90 foot scuba dive?

My wife is hotter than your wife.

[TomAiello 25]

Quote

How dangerous is base really ???

As dangerous as you make it.

Same goes for swooping.

-- Tom Aiello

[email protected]
SnakeRiverBASE.com

[freefal 0]

Quote

***
This comparison stuff is silly. Rather than comparing risks of BASE to other activities, isnt' a more prudent use of time to examine the risks of BASE and then attempt to manage them as best as possible without regard to how risky an off-heading canopy is compared to a 90 foot scuba dive?***

I completely aggree. More importantly, no one but you can accurately decide if one thing is more risky than another or if you should even consider doing some activity based on the risks. You can try to quantify the risks, but when you're finished the quantities are all estimates and the risks are based on you're values.

"Ignorance is bliss" and "Patience is a virtue"... So if you're stupid and don't mind waiting around for a while, I guess you can have a pretty good life!

[Jasmin 0]

Aussie BASE has had a pretty crappy 18 months in terms of losing jumpers, so I'm not sure we're a good example. But the injury rate is getting pretty similar (swoop numbers are going up) and we've lost a few jumpers swooping too.

xj

"I wouldn't recommend picking a fight with the earth...but then I wouldn't recommend picking a fight with a car either, and that's having tried both."

[NickDG 23]

>>How dangerous is base really ???<<

No matter how hip we are, it's still pretty dangerous . . .

#90 . . .

Blue skies, Brother . . .

http://www.basefatalities.info/

NickD
BASE 194