Opinions on flying your rear risers

[CanuckInUSA 0]

I was thinking about what happened to me last Saturday (surviving my 1st BASE malfunction) and was also reading the "FJC for PGs" thread. Anyway it all got me thinking about one area where PG pilots may not have a lot of experience in (of course I could very well be out to lunch as maybe PG pilots have plenty of experience here). But then I started thinking, well this isn't just a PG issue. There are many BASE jumpers and Skydivers who also lack experience in this form of canopy control.

It still baffles me when I hear many BASE jumpers (and skydivers) say "don't touch your rear risers as you're going to stall the canopy and die a black death". It blows me away. Why do some people feel that your rears are nothing but black death? Why do some people know so little about how to fly their canopies? Yes one shouldn't pull down abruptly on your rears and yes you WILL stall at higher air speed even when you fly your rears the way they can be flown. But your rears are nothing to be afraid of. Not only will knowing how to fly them potentially save your ass one day (like it did mine on Saturday), but they can also be used to increase your glide and well they are just fun to fly. I fly my rears on virtually every skydive that I am on and have even flown my rears on BASE jumps at a certain remote location of Moab where the impact to the talus may only be 400 feet, but the landing area is about 1000 feet vertical from the exit point giving me plenty of time to play. Plus I've used my rears to see how far I can glide towards the parking lot at the most popular exit point in Moab.

So what do you guys (and gals) think?

Try not to worry about the things you have no control over

[dqpacker 7]

Can you tell us what happened on your first base mal?

[CanuckInUSA 0]

Quote

Can you tell us what happened on your first base mal?

The following was take from a post I made yesterday here.

I made a packing error by setting my brakes on my brand new gear wrong (gear which I was not familar with). Anyway I lost my entire right control line on a slider down opening. Yes you can flame me all you want for this packing error. I was in the wrong and yes this is the internet where flaming others seems to be the hip thing to do. But the bottom line is that it wasn't my confidence which saved my ass. It was my experience flying BASE and skydiving parachutes and more importantly my experience flying my rear risers and knowing what and what not to do under canopy. Oh and I stood my up rear riser landing in no winds on the beach. It's not something I'd like to get into the habit of doing, but something which can be done nonetheless.

Try not to worry about the things you have no control over

[JaapSuter 0]

Wearing my Hanwags for ankle protection and my Dainese shorts for tailbone protection, I've done several (> 10) rear-riser only landings on my Sabre 170. I will continue to do so on my Rockdragon in my skydives, and will not hesitate to try some at the potato bridge if altitude, wind-direction and -strength permit.

Cheers,

Jaap Suter

[DexterBase 0]

I'm pretty unfamiliar with this widespread fear of rear risers in the BASE community. I think as a BASE jumper you'd better know how to use all of your unputs, not just toggles before you ever venture to an object where living may require using risers.

Rear risers can and will stall your canopy if you overamp them.

Rear risers will cost you precious altitude to avoid an object strike but that's the price you have to pay if you would rather live than hit the wall. Worry about the heading first. If you hit the wall, you won't need to worry about altitude anyway. Heading is always priority #1.

If you need to correct your heading to avoid hitting an object, use the risers to turn you far enough so you won't hit the wall, then use your toggles. Don't use the risers to turn all the way around unless you have an endless supply of altitude.

Know if you will have enough altitude to correct an offheading opening with risers. If you don't and you don't think you will be able to get on your toggles fast enough to avoid the wall, maybe you shouldn't jump.

Practice flying with your rear risers in a friendly environment where you will be able to pay attention to the effect they have on your canopy flight. Practice keeping your toggles in your hands and flying with the rear risers.

Rear risers are not to be feared. If you're scared to use them, you don't know enough about canopy flight to be BASE jumping, period.

[TomAiello 25]

Quote

It still baffles me when I hear many BASE jumpers (and skydivers) say "don't touch your rear risers as you're going to stall the canopy and die a black death".

I'm with DexterBASE here. What BASE jumpers have you heard say this? I guess I'm also with you, because that's nuts.

Don't paragliders use more control inputs (i.e. just a few lines, in some places)? My general impression is that they're more familiar (not less) with using small, odd inputs to effect the wing, hence more likely to be comfortable with the rear risers, and understand the differences between various control inputs.

-- Tom Aiello

[email protected]
SnakeRiverBASE.com

[CanuckInUSA 0]

I don't know very much about Paragliding. But it is my understanding that they have four risers (one for each line group) instead of the two that BASE and skydiving canopies use. Of course they are under a different wing and it's not known how much transferable experience they have in controlling one of their risers as opposed to controlling the risers we use. But just so that there is no confusion here. I do think experienced PG pilots do have transferable skills. It was my thinking about a lot of skydivers and some BASE jumpers in their unfamiliarity of flying their rears which got me motivated to start this poll. The paragliders were just what started me thinking about it.

So some of us are in agreement that our rears are nothing to be afraid of. And lets also not forget that a wing can stall at any airspeed and at any attitude. If people can get this through into their heads then they will take that ever so important steep towards understanding flight and how we get away with what we do up their in the skies under canopy.

Try not to worry about the things you have no control over

[sabre210 0]

Sorry to reiterate what Dexter and Tom have said, but who is this elusive "they" who are afraid to use their rear risers....i don't know of ANYONE who holds the belief that "rear risers are black death" and i absolutely can not believe that anyone teaching base these days would instill in a student the fear to not touch their rear risers. The very notion is insanity, in fact it is contrary to everything you are taught as a basejumper. So who believes this and more to the point, who the frig taught them to basejump??? That's not rhetorical either.

Not trying to get on your case dude....it's just this thread might as well be entitled "who thinks slider down base jumps are black death".I'm not convinced it's a widely held view at all and as such is a non-issue. Your poll seems to back this up too.

[CanuckInUSA 0]

I'm not talking about using your rear risers for off heading openings. This is being taught in the FJCs and in some cases being discussed in the FJC but instead of using them toggles are being taught. No I am talking about flying your canopy to an intended landing area using your rears and being able to land your canopy using your rears.

Maybe it's just something that is in my head, but I can swear on a number of occasions I have heard people cringe at the thought of flying their rears because they think they will automatically stall their canopy or that they will lose all this altitude. I don't know.

Flame away ... it is the internet after all.

Try not to worry about the things you have no control over

[TomAiello 25]

In my opinion, landing on rear risers ought to be considered a mandatory BASE skill. Every BASE jumper ought to have sufficient practice to land downwind on rears if need be.

-- Tom Aiello

[email protected]
SnakeRiverBASE.com

[lifewithoutanet 0]

I haven't heard much in the way of BASE jumpers being reluctant to fly their rear risers, but there is a definite phobia among many skydivers. I think it stems from higher stall speeds and more subtle inputs having more drastic results.
When I was on a quest to prove how different I was from everyone else's learning curves--far too early in my skydiving life--I was swooping and transitioning to rears on final, following my carve. So, there I was, screaming in for a high speed landing, trying to fly my rears to get a little more distance out of my canopy. I was heavily criticized at the time and rightly so. With my little experience on top of transitioning from front to rears at high speed, prior to flaring...I was an accident waiting to happen (which eventually did, but I think my rears--if by mistake--saved me).
So, what I'm getting at is that I think the stigma in skydiving is flying your rears close to the ground, at high speed, rather than just plain flying your rears up high. Even the canopy coaches say that flying your rears is one of the last things to add when you're learning to swoop.
For what it's worth, I had to land my rears this weekend, too. Floater exit, slider up with a bit of a snivel... Opened, turned about 135, cleared the shore and landed the rears. Never touched my brakes. Nothing spectacular, but landing rears because you have to is a far cry from a 270 carve to rears. That, I think is the fear of which you speak. Follow me?
-C.

[peterk 0]

If anything, this comes from the days of AFF with little canopy understanding. Seeing a couple people yank down as hard as they can on rear risers, and, not surprisingly, crashing in, keeps most from trying it at the dz. With a skydive canopy, there isn't a huge need to practice it, the toggles will "always" be there.

Once you get into BASE, you learn that you can't be scared of the rear risers. Just to the opposite, you go through drills, mentally and physically, that directly involve rear riser input, to save your life when the canopy opens and you see a rockface up close and personal. Slider down means you will have a lot more chance to test out your rear riser landings, versus slider up and skydiving.

I just think you're thinking about skydiving too much, and swooping too hard...

As far as the poll, I vote to do whatever it takes to get on the ground safely and unhurt...

---------------
Peter
BASE - The Ultimate Victimless Crime

[lifewithoutanet 0]

Well, I was just theorizing on the origin of the fear Steve mentioned. I've got no problem with rears; skydiving, ground launching or BASE. They're fun to fly, land, and they can save your life and limbs.
Personally, my only fear is when B-teamers are on the load. Gotta watch out for those fockers.
-C.

[QuickDraw 0]

I didn't vote just for the record Steve, but was just curious as to how you landed on your mal,
did you blow the other toggle and use only rears, or did you use your left toggle & rear right ?

I know there are two schools of thought.. i just wondered which one you chose.

-- Hope you don't die. --

I'm fucking winning

[CanuckInUSA 0]

Once I realized that I had lost my right control line, I didn't waste anytime getting rid of the other one and I immediately started flying my rears towards the beech. As far as flaring, well I'm not sure if there was very much of that going on, but I did level out the canopy and let the airspeed bleed off until the canopy stalled and I touched down.

Try not to worry about the things you have no control over

[QuickDraw 0]

Quote

I didn't waste anytime getting rid of the other one

I can read that two ways too.

So i'll assume you left it stowed, thanks Steve.

-- Hope you don't die. --

I'm fucking winning

[CanuckInUSA 0]

Quote

So i'll assume you left it stowed

No I tossed the left one before going to the rears.

Try not to worry about the things you have no control over

[diablopilot 2]

They are black death. Way black death.

Shit, don't touch ANY risers........

----------------------------------------------
You're not as good as you think you are. Seriously.

[GaryP 0]

I know it sounds cliche but - have the canopy be an extension of yourself. Know every line group and what it does as 2nd nature. Yeah - explore your canopy, know your canopy, be your canopy and every part of it - including your rears.

When I'm reacting to an off-heading I'm just reachin up instinctively - sometimes grabbn a riser and sometimes a toggle and sometimes the lines themselves - all reacting to different scenarios and all (so far) the correct choice but I never have to think about it - I just do it as autoresponse.

Gotta say CRW has helped me get to this stage.

Anyone who says per se that your rears are death are just flying limited and can't handle the fact that other ppl are more attuned than they are ot their equipment - don't listen to 'em - they don't know shiit.

g.

"Altitude is birthright to any individual who seeks it"

.

[Faber 0]

at my jump # 30 i got a blown toogle,i poped the other so i were only flying on rearrisers.
As i never before had tryed to stall a 225sqft 7cell csanopy,so i chouse to do it on a solo,braking fib and tib. Now that wasnt that much fun so after 8,5 months of rehab and getting back into BASE,i first choosed to freefall 180ft getting 90 off to my right,which i corrected at my riser,after that i landed the canopy on rearriser whith out having unstowed anytoogles(not thats clever for the next packjob
Later on i mannegede to pack my self a nice pair of xéd toogles,again whith a offheadding corrected by rear riser,i poped both toogles and let them go as i realiced what happened. Again i landed my canopy on rear risers.Last to descibed landings were nice landings.

What i want to say is that you can land on rear risers even in bad places,just dont stall the f#cker

Im all whith Dexter here.. if you cant land your canopy on rearriser you deafently should start practice doing it,or considder were you want to set down your canopy...

Stay safe
Stefan Faber

[TVPB 0]

Its REALLY simple.

You have 6 basic control inputs on any parachute/canopy. They are two each of front risers, rear risers, and your toggles. And any combination thereof. You can also get real tricky and fly using individual lines, harness weight shift, etc, etc, etc. Each of these inputs can lead to stalls and . . . when used too aggressively.

. . . . .

Its kind of like using the first 3 gears on a 6 geared race car.

Heck, its a bit like flying a plane but forgetting about your flaps.

Getting back to the subject. . . . . .

People who don't fly their rear risers or are dead against them are generally people who are NOT in the know, or who have had a bad experience with a poorly designed canopy.

To harp on some cross skilling. CRW jumpers use risers almost more often than toggles. CRW is without doubt the most aggressive and precise form of canopy control involving all 6 control inputs. Swooping is up there too. Why do thse canopy pilots use risers. Because it adds another dimension to canopy control.

e.g. a bit of rear riser tweak balanced with a tiny bit of toggle input wil flatten your angle of attack and result in better glide ratio on most canopies.

How about warping?????? For those that don't know, if you don't like stalling and you want to both minimise forward speed and increase descent rate, try some front riser coupled with opposite rear toggle.

Then there is flying the canopy "backwards".

Then there is . . . .

Using only toggles is 2 dimensional. Flying a parachute is a 3 dimensional activity.

I rest my case..

Stay Safe - Have Fun - Good Luck

The above could be crap, thought provoking, useful, or . . But not personal. You decide.

[TVPB 0]

Have you never heard the "is it better to use toggles of rear risers for 180's argument"?

That is where the anti - rear riser group is from.

Stay Safe - Have Fun - Good Luck

The above could be crap, thought provoking, useful, or . . But not personal. You decide.

[sitflybaseboy 0]

If you BASE, you better know how to land with rear risers, because its only a matter of when it will happen, not if it will happen. I have actually landed my canopy with no flare on toggles or risers, and a good PLF on a VERY dark night jump. I had toggles, but never saw the ground. Luckily it worked out ok and I was uninjured. Each jump can present a completely different problem.
321CYA L8TR
Sitflybaseboy

BASE 1043 Night BASE 160
BASE is to skydivers as skydiving is to whuffos