gerryfuss 0 #1 January 21, 2004 I read somewhere that it is bad to double stow elastics but most of the skydivers I know seem to do this and it's also how I was taught. Any expert opinion out there? what about tube stoes? anyone who uses them think they are better than rubber bands? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
masher 1 #2 January 21, 2004 It depends on the size of the rubber bands. Large rubber bands, you need to double wrap, else they're too big (except for the locking stows) Small rubber bands only need only wrap. DON"T double stow tube stows (or their equivelent) There are ways of attaching them the the dbag that shortens them, and thus tightening them around your lines. Note: This is not an expert opinion, just my observation over my couple of years jumping.-- Arching is overrated - Marlies Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
FrogNog 1 #3 January 21, 2004 I have been told it is bad to double-wrap "elastics" on the locking stows, but you can double-wrap the non-locking stows. -=-=-=-=- Pull. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Blahr 0 #4 January 21, 2004 QuoteI have been told it is bad to double-wrap "elastics" on the locking stows, but you can double-wrap the non-locking stows. Yep, thats the exact same thing that a LOT of people have taught me and its the way I do it. Single stow for locking stows, double for the rest. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
GroundZero 0 #5 January 21, 2004 (...get ready for flames... nomex suit on...) I have never seen a stow too tight that caused a problem what so ever. Locking stows included... on the other hand, i've seen line dump and bag strip that have caused many problems, including canopy damage and cutaways. Now here's the weird part... I no longer stow any lines with bungies, rubber bands, tube stows, etc... and my openings are better than ever. 5644 jumps, guessing over 8000 pack jobs... zero malfunctions... (ok, maybe one, but she was a cutie!) Chris All stows should be very tight ...on non-existent. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
bch7773 0 #6 January 21, 2004 a question... if you have line small enough to require double wraps of a big rubber band, why not get smaller rubber bands? they about the same price... why stick with the bigger ones that require more effort? (I'm not being sarcastic, I am genuinely curious) MB 3528, RB 1182 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
masher 1 #7 January 21, 2004 In my case, it was because the DZ provided the rubber bands, and they had boxes and boxes of big ones.-- Arching is overrated - Marlies Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
mjosparky 3 #8 January 21, 2004 Quote(...get ready for flames... nomex suit on...) I have never seen a stow too tight that caused a problem what so ever. Locking stows included... on the other hand, i've seen line dump and bag strip that have caused many problems, including canopy damage and cutaways. Now here's the weird part... I no longer stow any lines with bungies, rubber bands, tube stows, etc... and my openings are better than ever. 5644 jumps, guessing over 8000 pack jobs... zero malfunctions... (ok, maybe one, but she was a cutie!) Chris All stows should be very tight ...on non-existent. I agree, if you can get the band around the lines by hand, 2 times, 3 times, or what ever, it will not stop the deployment of your canopy. At 120 mph + or - the band or tube stow with break if it hangs up and the line stow will be free. Take the biggest fattest stow band you can find, grab it with just your index fingers and pull till it breaks. Not that hard really. Other then the locking stows, which hold the bag closed until line stretch, the rest of the stows just keep the lines neat during packing. jmo SparkyMy idea of a fair fight is clubbing baby seals Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
hookitt 0 #9 January 21, 2004 Quotewhy stick with the bigger ones that require more effortBigger rubber bands are MUCH easier to work with even when double stowing. Small rubber bands are more effort. I've double stowed through locking stows for 13 years with nary a problem. Up until this past season, I was under the impression that stows needed to be really tight. After it was suggested that it's not true, I tried loose stows my self and have been wasting many less rubber bands ever since.My grammar sometimes resembles that of magnetic refrigerator poetry... Ghetto Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
ernokaikkonen 0 #10 January 21, 2004 >I've double stowed through locking stows for 13 years with nary a problem. Your mileage may vary... I doubled up one locking stow on my ~400th jump. The rubberband was too loose and I was too lazy to change it. Result: A brief bag lock that quickly turned into a spinning malfunction --> cutaway. Of course the actual problem may have been asymmetrical tightness of the locking stows, but who knows. I use TubeStoes now. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
riggerrob 558 #11 January 21, 2004 I have double-wrapped thousands of rubber bands with nary a problem. Keeping line stows tight is far more important ... Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
skymedic 0 #12 January 21, 2004 Chris...are you talking Line dump or canopy/bag dump...I have free stowed often and that is true line dump...and still never have a hard opening...now if i didn't close those damn locking stowes..well that's a different animal.. Marc otherwise known as Mr.Fallinwoman.... Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
AggieDave 6 #13 January 21, 2004 Quotenow if i didn't close those damn locking stowes..well that's a different animal.. You know, RWS recommends that folks use tube stows for their locking stows for various reasons. Firstly, they did a lot of research on how the various components work together (d-bag, PC, canopy, stows, lines) during the initial stages of deployment. What they found is that the bag/PC accelerates away from the container, but the canopy is resistant to the change in speed. It wants to "stay" with the container. What they have is a lot of pictures of the flap on the d-bag being pulled and distorted quite a large amount against the force of the canopy trying to stay in place. So, what they've said is to use tube stows, since they'll give more resistance and are much less likely to break, giving you bag strip/bag dump. Sorry, I don't have a link for it, I don't remember the link to the Power Point RWS has.--"When I die, may I be surrounded by scattered chrome and burning gasoline." Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
diablopilot 2 #14 January 21, 2004 Quotewhy stick with the bigger ones that require more effort? I find the smaller one require signifigantly more effort to use. 2000+ packsobs and jumps with no malfunction double wraping ALL stows.---------------------------------------------- You're not as good as you think you are. Seriously. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
rigging65 0 #15 January 21, 2004 I'd get rid of line stows and stow bands all together. Oh wait, I already did that. Figure-8's and Tuck tabs , that's the way to go. "...and once you had tasted flight, you will walk the earth with your eyes turned skyward. For there you have been, and there you long to return..." Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
weekendwonder 0 #16 January 21, 2004 To double-wrap or not... Seems to me it depends on the canopy mfg's instructions on how to pack the canopy. This assumes, of course, the mfg provides instructions, and the canopy purchaser takes the time to read them. Blues, Bob P. Eagles may soar, but weasels don't get sucked into jet engines. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
ChasingBlueSky 0 #17 January 22, 2004 Unlike Chris/groundzero, I don't have the luxury of test drop video results, just my years on the mat as a cash packer. I know of at least one person that had to chop a bag lock while using the black super bands on his locking stows. He was jumping a smaller Crossfire1 (107 I think) so you can get an idea on the lineset. If I am not mistaken, there was a rash of bag locks while using the black bands. I have close to 5000 pack jobs now, one chop. I usually try not to double wrap; I use big bands on the locking stows and small bands on the other stows...and I always err on the side of leaving more unstowed than doing the last one. I will double stow a locking band only if it has become really loose and is not gripping the lines at all - usually I will just replace that band. Pain in the ass? Yea, but not as bad as bag strip. Free stowing everything but the locking stows? Well, I watched a guy pack 4 mals in one day doing that. I know it works for guys like Phree, and I understand why it should work just as good as a normal pack in theory, but you won't catch me doing it until I see a scientific study done on it._________________________________________ you can burn the land and boil the sea, but you can't take the sky from me.... I WILL fly again..... Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
diablopilot 2 #18 January 22, 2004 QuoteIf I am not mistaken, there was a rash of bag locks while using the black bands. I don't buy it. 1500+ jumps on the black bands, same packing method, no problemo.... They break when stressed just as easy as regular bands, however they don't suffer abrasion damage from the lines as easily. Too bad we can't get 'em anymore.---------------------------------------------- You're not as good as you think you are. Seriously. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
GroundZero 0 #19 January 23, 2004 JP, I've still got a bunch... I'll send you a bag of the black bands... love 'em, used them for as long as they existed. Still have a bunch... never had a problem. Chris Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
GroundZero 0 #20 January 23, 2004 QuoteChris...are you talking Line dump or canopy/bag dump...I have free stowed often and that is true line dump...and still never have a hard opening...now if i didn't close those damn locking stowes..well that's a different animal.. I've never seen bag dump/bag strip that wasn't caused by assymetrical line dump... chicken vs. egg kinda thing. I have seen line dump... a spaghetti mess just one foot outa the container, then the canopy gets dragged outa the bag by just a few, (not all) lines. One side gets loaded fully while the other side of the canopy is still slack. Some would call that bag strip, but it was caused by the initial line dump... I have been using a "Berger" bag for the last...almost 400 jumps. no stows..., before that i did "coils of death" in the bottom of the container. nice openings.. the lines fed out smoothly. With the coils of death method... the pilot chute lifts the bag and canopy only... lines feed smoothly from the container tray. Even deployment of the canopy and equal line stretch across the canopy. Line dump (uneven exposure of lines at canopy exposure) is the root problem. Not bag strip, that is a function of line tension. Chris Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
rigging65 0 #21 January 23, 2004 Bag Strip (or dump) is almost always accompanied by line dump (I've never heard of it not being there), but line dump does not have to result in a hard opening...as is seen with stowless bags. I think the root of the problem is that if the canopy gets out of the bag, and the lines aren't at equal tension, the canopy kind of "does what it wants" while opening...usually causing much nastiness. I'm not sure where you're coming from with: QuoteLine dump (uneven exposure of lines at canopy exposure) is the root problem. Not bag strip, that is a function of line tension. How is bag strip a function of line tension? Slack lines don't cause a canopy to come out of the bag, locking loops coming open prematurely cause bag strip. Did you mean loop tension? "...and once you had tasted flight, you will walk the earth with your eyes turned skyward. For there you have been, and there you long to return..." Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
