ScratchTX

Mike was on my first 4-stack; my proud 100th jump. Also there at the memorial for my first skydiver friend's passing (Zara) -- somehow I ended up hanging out with him and Wendy, sharing the understanding that while of course losing anyone is cause for grief, it is not a reason to ask WHY or rail against the "shit happens" factor -- we live, we die and life goes on. Vietnam vet, general good guy, sad to not get a chance to see him again -- but that is what we do. Blue skies, Mlke. --Scratch

I know this violates the sacred laws of Speaker's Corner, but I actually wasn't debating you. Thanks for a thoughtful discussion. If I do get through the whole film I'll come back with my thoughts and opinions on it.

Yes, I was going off on a tangent from the documentary, not addressing the documentary content itself (I still am also trying to watch it in small doses, despite my conflicted feelings about *watching* it.) I fully agree that it is a really good thing for as many people as possible to understand how animals are treated by humans, and for what ends this unnecessary suffering is inflicted. I do think that if they fully understood the reality, many people would change their beliefs and hopefully their actions, and this could lead to some real changes for everyone (animals and people) involved. [Like others have already said, I don't mean that everyone should become a vegetarian or vegan!] My tangent is more about the role and impact of emotional whammies in presenting this information. I don’t think is it bad to make documentaries like this; I think they probably do change some people's beliefs and that's good. I'm just musing about strong emotional reactions, classical conditioning, aversion, repulsion, etc. vs. rational decisions, opinions and beliefs based on well thought-through moral principles, etc. Not saying these are mutually exclusive at all! We're emotional AND rational beings for sure. But of course just because something is horrifying and upsetting to watch doesn't mean it is "wrong." (That was my point about the Planet Earth reference.) There are deeper moral principles that make someone decide something is wrong. The emotional wallop may or may not be relevant, so it may not always be necessary either. Now, if you know something is wrong and need a kick in the butt to practice what you preach (like PLFXpert said "For me the film really helped me get over my personal temptations in a way that simply reading about the processes could not." ) then the emotional wallop might be just the right thing. Hey, that's what the movie "Walmart: The High Cost of Low Price" did for me. Harder to maintain behavior that you know is wrong, by your own values, when you feel suffering the way you do when you watch movies like that. But the approach to larger-scale change in society that makes more sense to me (because of who I am) is to try to facilitate people thinking critically. Getting information, not being in denial about that information, thinking about how that information fits into their beliefs and values, seeing how their beliefs jibe with the moral principles they hold... seeing what needs to change. Then, yeah, changing it! And sure, emotional reaction is one piece of that "information." But obviously just seeing this stuff is not going to change everyone, even people who are affected emotionally by it. And I wonder, if by the very super-emotional impact of the images, someone might be even less likely to be changed on the rational level, since it can be hard to stay super present and functional on both levels simultaneously. (Crimes of passion come to mind...)

I have been trying to watch it, so I can meet the criteria for replying. I am not sure if I can. I feel two main reactions so far, after the trailer and first minute or so: 1)I feel like I am about to watch a snuff film. I have deliberately avoided watching the video clips of Neda, who was killed on film during the Iranian protests. I am not certain what I would gain by watching this. Similarly, although I am not currently an active skydiver, I recall a discussion here from when I was (maybe it was on rec.skydiving -- showing my age!), where someone said if he was on the ground and saw someone about to go in in front of him, he would turn away. Not out of denial, but because he did not see how imprinting that gory and brutal image on his brain would make him a better person, or make him better understand the reality of the risk (I believe he had already lost some friends perhaps.) The suffering I have seen (minimal), and the more severe suffering that has been seen by people I know, is not something I would wish on anyone else to see. 2) I know someone who cannot watch "Planet Earth" on DVD because she calls it "Planet Death." I think, "Predators and prey, savage death and suffering is a part of nature, how sad that you cannot tolerate and accept that." But I do understand that suffering hurts to watch. Even when we can accept it within an acceptable context, it still can suck to watch another being suffering. So just being pained and saddened in and of itself does not signify anything. My guess is, that after one and a half hours of graphic horrendous video, the question raised to us is "if we are able to *choose* whether to treat other living beings with kindness or with cruel savagery, why do we not always choose the former?" That is an excellent question, and I would commend the filmmakers for bringing it forward. I think the suffering we inflict in animals for pleasure or greed is abhorrent. I really am not sure if/why I need to watch the video footage to weigh in on that, though. So I would ask you, as one who did choose to watch it, if/why you think it is important for people to watch this video?

Just make sure you name her quick -- because whatever you are calling her now in the meantime will soon become her name to her. (Spoken from experience... because I didn't think I was going to keep her but hey ya gotta call the dog something when you talk to her... I still recall that "oh shit" moment, after I decided I was indeed keeping her, when I realized my dog thought her name was "Pookie." Although with those ears, she could have ended up named Sister Bertrille, so I guess it worked out okay.

Wow these are some great suggestions. Some of them look like just what I'm looking for... so now, how about the REALLY small ones, the ones WITHOUT websites (are there even such places?!) Wendy, you can hang on to my d-bag for a while yet -- I don't think my new Spectre got any easier for me to pack in the two years it's been sitting in my rig. I'll be back to Temple for sure once I start jumping again. Might get current elsewhere just to change it up and start fresh. But I do miss y'all and look forward to jumping there again. This is all still going to be some time in the future, depending on various things, but I've got a good list going of places and people. Interesting challenge drawing a route, though...It looks like something you'd see on a PeeWee's Playhouse map... or like those logic puzzles: "connect the seven dots using only three straight lines..." Austin, Wissota in Wisconsin, and Malone wherever it will be in NY, and Airtight in Oklahoma to see if you guys really do look like those cartoons... I've heard about Palatka and Emerald Coast for a while so want to add those even though they're a little bigger than what I was looking for... And hell yes it will have to be the height of summer for me to jump in Wisconsin. Brr. The last summer I was jumping at all regularly, I enjoyed exiting into balmy air around 75 degrees... AT FULL ALTITUDE. (okay so the temps. did really suck on the ground, though)

N/A

So I'm thinking I may get current and start skydiving again in the next year. Will do that locally, until I feel like the layer of rust has blown off. But then... I always wanted to take a dropzone road trip. But not to the biggest and hottest dz's --rather, to the little club-like ones. DZ's that are especially welcoming to the odd folk, the thoughtful ones who can wax eloquent about the feel of the relative wind at exit from different planes without getting blank stares and shrugs: "I just exit." Kind of an "olden days" feel, where doing one or two jumps in a day wouldn't seem that weird. DZs where it's about skydiving rather than being a Skydiver. Turbine vs. piston is unimportant. Physical facilities don't matter so much either. I enjoyed getting my feet wet in skydiving at a small Cessna DZ, even though I admit my past-middle-aged bones have enjoyed the bench seats and big doors at the Otter/Caravan dzs I visited. Regarding "disciplines" (huh what a word) -- with my low jump #'s and currency, I don't freefly; small RW and silly stuff is good. And CRW is good, too... So, starting from Texas, where would y'all suggest I go? I know everybody loves their dz, and good vibes are wherever you make them/find them... :>) But there is still a culture difference, and I'm looking for the Main Street/Woolworths type dzs rather than the Carlos 'n Charlies/Dave & Busters type ones...

Good. :>)

Not right now they aint! hmmm... Not if this is a Texas snowman... http://home.kxan.com/photo_gallery/severeweatherhitscentraltexas/asmallsnowmaninaustin2.html almost as funny as the kids sledding down a muddy, vaguely frozen hill of dirt. Or the news people running 24/7 coverage of ICE STORM 2007, with the reporter holding a thermal travel mug of ACTUAL ICICLES AS SEEN ON HOUSES HERE IN AUSTIN... but hey, I've enjoyed my two days off, complained about the cold, and even took pictures of my own icicles, so who am I to talk?

apologies if already posted (didn't see it in search) http://images.google.com/imagelabeler/ strangely addictive

Looks a whole lot like my found-as-a-stray dog. One of those great "lab mixes," a wonderful dog. And about the dubious name "Cracker --" I didn't think I was going to keep my dog at first, so I didn't want to give her a name. I was just "fostering" her for a few days (RIGHT). But of course ya gotta talk to the sweet pup, using dumb terms of endearment... one term in particular... a term that you soon realize (with horror and chagrin) she now thinks is her name... So, seven years later, she still answers to "Pookie." You'll all get used to "Cracker" -- just don't get another dog and name it "Honky."

I've had a different experience -- I guess it depends what you mean by "wuffo." If you mean someone who is closed minded and believes skydiving is stupid, then sure, forget it. But I know people who have no interest in ever making a skydive who have been sincerely interested in why people skydive and what skydivers get from it. And, short of actually KNOWING what skydiving actually feels like, they have really "gotten" a lot of what I've said. The feeling of freedom, the pure fun, the sense of utter self-reliance and focus, the facing fears, the sheer beauty, the being in the moment, the cameraderie, the personal challenge, even the desire to fly or be in a different physical element than the earth on which we usually walk -- these aren't really unique to skydiving, I think. They are part of life, part of our human nature, and skydiving is just one very incredible, very intensified way of experiencing them. I've found that non-skydiving people who are open minded to these flavors of experience in their own lives really have in fact understood my answers to their question "why?"

It's not just packing and safety when you're not current... I came back to jump after a nine-month layoff and repacked my main when I got to the DZ late that afternoon (already'd had the reserve repacked). I'd only put about 10 jumps/pack jobs (if that) on that brand-new Spectre canopy, and had jumped/packed F-111 up until then. HA! I had some ambivalence/butterflies about jumping again after such a long layoff anyway (okay I was nervous like a first jump student) and wrestling with that slippery ZP for hours getting sweaty and sore and achey and frustrated didn't help -- by the time I finished, it was close to sunset, I was exhausted, and I didn't even jump. When I'm ready to go jump again, I will repack it a day or two before I go to the dz. I actually enjoyed getting familiar with the canopy again before I [would have] jumped it-- all the steps of packing EXCEPT putting it in the bag. It was also amazing to see it drop out of the bag onto the floor as a hard ball of nylon all stuck to itself -- I'm sure it "would have opened" as everyone told me but it made me feel better to get it looking like a normal canopy again. The peace of mind thing.

40-50

I like the idea of a mix of thnigs -- some skill-related like accuracy, and some goofy like ugliest/scariest rig (I could win one of those, won't say which) Mostly I am all about the GSCR's. Or, I guess to be PC we should call them the GLBTSCR's. Or maybe we could just do QSCR's? I like that so much better... so inclusive. Anyway, I am ALMOST current again (went out to the dz today to see the new plane but only managed to repack my main after 1 1/2 years, wow that was some SCARY brick-like nylon in there, I didn't even know canopies could hold their S-folds unassisted, hanging in the air, or make that crunchy sound) and should be current soon and then I will save myself for the first QSCR load... So if Kirsten is organizing them, I can bribe her by promising to finally bring her a copy of the video from the old Tri-Angels meeting ... :-) ( I didn't forget, just procrastinated beyond the point of no return)

well there is something just a little more down and dirty nasty about speakers corner -- can't believe I never tried it until this thread!

[hack, cough]... it's been 12 hours... [gasp gurgle]...nooo... [hack, gack, gurgle]... is it really... [gack, gurgle, bubble gurgle gasp ACK]...

Thanks for this reminder. The worst, most sobering "man did I just fuck up and get to learn from it" experience I ever had was due to thinking "that's odd! This shouldn't be happening! Hmm! That can't be right!" Resulted in a really low pull because thinking so much about how odd it was distracted me from what WAS happening. As I'm preparing now to skydive again after a long break, your post reminds to skip the editorial analysis next time (other than "oh shit," that is) until I'm on the ground.

Yes, last I recall, Wendy W., RhondaLea and ??? some guy with a name like an italian race car...? were in a hotel room... and some kind of fleece-lined black leather cuffs were involved... and someone's mouth being filled with sweet things... Oh, and outside, behind the building, the "Flaming Teeth Extinguishment" competition was entering into the exciting final rounds...

What an unfortunate stance to take. One of, if not the, biggest issues the gay community faces in gaining equal rights, is a general lack of understanding of what homosexuality is. Even though I’ve had this discussion more times than I can count, I never miss the chance to educate someone who is genuinely interested in understanding. Why would we want to put off someone coming to us with compassion? Well, like I said, I know they are well-meaning and I appreciate their intentions. I always give them a nice hug after I smack them in the face for asking... But seriously, though often I'll have The Discussion anyway, and I never bitch at anyone for honestly asking , sometimes I just want to be a person hanging out, not a homosexpert, you know? I respect your patience and generous attitude... and if you and I jumped at the same dz I would nicely send them over to you! I guess I also feel like if someone is genuinely interested in understanding, they can take a little responsiiblity for educating themselves. We're talking about adults here, from the US or other developed modern countries. It's probably not too hard for people to find books, movies, lectures, community groups, magazines, gay/straight organizations, pamplets, etc. with just a little effort. Sure that might be hard and hey I can empathize -- coming out was hard, living for years as a criminal under Texas law was hard, lots of things about being queer are difficult, you know that -- but I'm motivated, so... let curiosity and the desire to empathize and understand motivate us all to work a little harder to learn more ourselves, instead of expecting others to do the work for us. (I'm kind of curous about midgets, what it would be like to live as one, but if I met a midget at someplace like the dz I wouldn't assume they would want to spend all night answering all my questions about it -- I'd figure they might prefer to talk about skydiving or whatever else they are interested in, just like most people. If I didn't know how to use google and was afraid of reference librarians, I could even ask them if they knew of any good resources for learning more about little people (since I don't think "The Wizard of Oz" counts). If the midget was more like me, they might loan me their favorite book of political essays, poetry, and pornography by people under 48" and suggest some good midget forums on the web; if they are more like you, they might say "here I am, what do you want to know?") (just googled midgets and found out that's an offensive term to many people, see I learned something already) (It's still a great word though -- nice sound -- mi-djit. mih-djit. MIH-djiht.)

No one replied to this direct request for experiences, so I will. I have not experienced outright abuse ever at a dz. (I have in other environments.) As for "given a hassle" or "lack of welcome," yes, in subtle ways. "Given a hassle --" During a skydive, never. But much of my time at the dz would be spent not actually on a skydive, especially after beer light, and this is what I found was a hassle, based on me being gay: People making anti-gay jokes that weren't funny. Walking away a lot was a hassle. I don't have to do that much walking away in environments where people don't make stupid anti-queer jokes. (I'm talking about jokes that are only funny if you think queer = ew!!) People engaging me in conversations about being gay that were new and novel to them, but old and repetitive and tired and boring to me: "I had a gay friend once and..." "When did you know you were gay? How did you know? Did you ever try heterosexuality?" Again, having to either extricate myself and walk away, or play educator one more time, or deal with it at all, was a hassle. A hassle I don't encounter in environments where people don't even think about being gay any more that they think about being brunette (How does it feel to be a brunette? Do you remember noticing one day that your hair was brown?), or in environments where there are a lot more gay people around and I'm not the only resident expert. I do not think the people involved ever intended to hassle me. They had good intentions I believe, but nonetheless being at a dz where I was the only known gay person "gave me a hassle." As for "lack of welcome," I have found that some of the on-the-ground bonding activity at dzs, the inter-relating that can contribute to a feeling of welcome, often relies on shortcuts that presume traditional heterosexual roles and interactions. As a gay person, I have felt less of a welcome because of that. It's a part of the welcome that (some, not all) straight people there do with each other more, because they are fluent in it and share the language and communication cues. So I would say I feel a lack of it then. Again, I don't believe anyone did this intentionally. Even the people I encountered who seemed deeply deeply uncomfortable with homosexuality never intentionally expressed that I was not welcome. It just feels less welcoming when you know that someone gets really uptight in your presence and you can't do a thing about it except ignore it. The fewer people I can engage with, the less "welcome" there is. That is my reply, as a gay person. (P.S. -- this is a reply directly to your question, not a complaint or argument. I have no complaints about anyone's behavior, and I'm not looking for an argument today. And sorry if the tone is really dry, I just wanted to be clear in my answers.)

Just found this site at work. Besides having a nice BASE video called "Jumper," and using excerpts for their examples, they have some good intro level tutorials on producing videos -- from storytelling to editing technique and style to compression basics. http://www.current.tv/studio/survivalguide/ for the tutorials and guides Pretty basic stuff but well presented, thought it might be of interest to some here. Some cool videos on the site, too.

Karma issue, not skydiving issue. Bought my rig used from an internet "stranger." She sent it to my rigger, I jumped it, had some life stuff suddenly happen where I couldn't buy it or jump for a while, and sent it back. 6 months later asked her if she still had it; she did. I was very strapped for cash, even for this inexpensive older gear. She sent it to me with the understanding that I would send her three equal payments to pay it off within six months. I did. I was happy. She was happy. It's been a year since I've jumped it. But if/when I sell it, I'd do the same to get someone jumping. Do what feels right to you.

good!