stoney3434

Rember in my posting where I said (I have other ideas too) Well,....I quite agree with what Uncle Charlie just posted .....in addition to having the "leader" be in a dead center position within whatever type of grid box, diamond, circle etc. is used. My way of saying the central axis he mentions would have been to say that the formation should have some sort of central spine predifined ( either as a straight line or even as a predefined S but through which.... ( as U.Charlie suggests,... that predeclared spine line will pass through and touch each flyer assigned to be on that line and no other flyer.... Then also as Mccordia and U charlie suggest ,..there shouild be symetry on both sides accoplished with the predeclared lines touching all the flyers that were assigned to those positions within the grid and with no flyers being any closer than than one full wingspan from another to either their side, behind or in front of them in the formation. Such a formation still allows "the follower" flyers some movement within their assigned grids but also insures a visual aesthetic of symetry that Uncle Charlie 's lines would also cause without allowing the line in the open space between two flyers to "just sqeuek through a tiny space bewteen jumpers. I would like to see THIS kind of formation done by the best flyers that can be brought together to create a real challenge ,..worthy of a record and as Uncle Charlie, Zach and many others have expressed, BE a REAL quality formation ,...regardless of quantity achieved . start small at 40 or 50 ,..get THAT formation on the first DAY using the very best flyers and then build from there adding a row or two on each side WHILE STILL using that same QUALITY criteria ,...Get THAT NEXT record the second or third day (breaking the first) and then add more to try to break the previous but always using the "quality criteria" ,..and so forth If this is too hard to incorporate for Elsinore ,...then at least do the leader at dead center and Central straight spine with the lines that Uncle Charlie is suggesting.... What do those of you going to ZElsinore think? It's going to be your attempt and your record ( records)if you get them? I suggest that those of you going to Elsinore provide some imput here on this site and directly to Taya, Jeff and the Plane leaders on Uncle Charlie and my suggestions and allow them some time to consider the ideas,...identify problems we might not be seeing in our suggestions and have time to work on whatever can be done and appears most desirable to the participants before you all gather there in November.... Responses??? Life is what happens while we are making other plans.

Reference: Re: [Buried] USPA Recognizes Wingsuit Record Category - NEW [In reply to] Quote | Reply In Reply To : Ditto that. We are all interested in improvements to the process! and...............................Zack's interested - sure. willing to help - doesn't seem so. a few people have said it in this thread - you can make anything work for the most part. Sure it's now judgeable, would you make a bet that I can type a word a minute? Of course not, because you know I can. Records should be something special, something that is above and beyond. The current criteria does not make that differentiation. To me (and others) these 'records' hold little merit as 'records' and should not be adopted by the world unless we have a better judging system that really shows some talent. ...then Phil's question to Zach, ......... how would you go about improving the current system? and then............... IMO, this is a healthy discussion that could potentially reveal some avenues for improvement. Matts post makes it obvious that there is much flexibility in the grid system where scaling, stretching, and creative imagination can be applied to validate (what I consider to be) an invalid formation. and ANdre's and SPOT's most recent posts ,... XXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXX "Stoney" here --- Hi all ............ I am going to offer just one change and addition to the wing suiting record formation criteria as I understand it now and have seen it applied for the past year ,... to use with ANY type of GRID . I believe this one firts change CAN at least "begin the process" of refining the criteria to provide a more acceptable and symetrical visual outcome and a more pleasing visual result which will also more accurately reflecting the accomomplishment vs. the intention of each flyer and the overall 'team" of flyers' in the formation. It is something I see and have seen as the most glaring and obvious weakness in the whole application of the BEST FIT grid concept as it applies to the flying skill of everyone "FOLLOWING" the formation's ''leader or leaders" I hate conflict and so I hesitated to bring this change up (more than twice) because "I" hoped someone else would also bring it up, I felt I am not one of the top wingsuiters in the world who has earned the right to make unsolicited comments ( and I did not see comments being solicited) and I really understand and appreciate what Taya and Phil and jeff have done for wingsuiting with their hard work and efforts. I have been a "don't rock the boat and be disliked type guy on all this grid stuff and I did not want to be the "only one" who was sorta seeing and feeling that all the focus on this grid stuff was taking some of the fun and beauty of symmetry and just plain "spiritual neatness" out of wingsuiting for me ,...( I just wanted to go up with friends, laugh alot, have lots of birds around me and be safe) I also just can't handle 5 or 6 flights a day for 4 or 5 days or even half that time ) I have been reading this forum and seeing a lot of conflict and defensive comments grow up about the grid stuuf in addition to flocking vs performance flying... When I finally saw more of you I know and respect as great flyers bringing up some of my thoughts ( and I have others) it encouraged me to go ahead and two finger type this posting. So here goes: This suggestion I am making "IS" a concept taken "from formation aircraft flying itself and utilized by The Thunderbirds, The Blue Angels, and every formation team of pilots I have seen and talked with... ( 3 of my demo pilo associates over the years were ex T-Birds and One was the leader in 64---yes I know I am old !) AND My SUGGESTION IS YOU ASK???? It 'is' that the ''LEADER''( lead aircraft-pilot) is always POSITIONED and headed PERFECTLY and that everyone else is to do their very best with their skills to fly off the "leader's wingtips in whatever position and at whateverr distance off the leader's perfect position they have been assigned to fly............... So ,....in placing ANY type of grid to be overlayed on any photo of the leader and formation,... the "leader" ( "lead aircraft" /lead pilot and always the most steady, stable, reliable pilot in terms of heading, horizontal and vertical speeds as well as constant situational awareness) MUST BE PLACED AND ASSUMMED TO BE IN THE " DEAD CENTER" of the VERY FRONT MOST AND CENTER BOX OR DIAMOND OF ANY GRID BEING USED..... The ""LEADER"" "is the one sole flyer" NOT following anything but rather BEING FOLLOWED by wingmen, stinger ( trail aircraft) and every otehr pilot inany formation and "the leader is the one pilot that is in no way flying by reference to visual reference to his or her wingmen or any other flyers. The "leaders sole intent" is to fly "on heading and stable" at a predetermind speed to a predetermined spot over the ground and accomplishment of that intent HAS to be assumed to be perfect in any photo momentary judgement of the foloowing pilots or of the entire overall formation. So,...ANY GRID should be placed as "a BEST FIT" over a formation ---yes,.......BUT "only" with the leader in the photo put "DEAD CENTER" in the front and center box or diamond of whatever Grid is used. If the leader is flying a formation that has a straight front line,...the Grid can be angled to "best fit" all the flyers in that line,... BUT it should never move the "leader" out of the Dead Center Position in the Center front box or center front diamond... ( or at most withnin a foot or so of Dead Center to allow for a moment of minor turbulence) The leader does not have to deal with any burbles ( except maybe Scotty passing below ---LOL ) and the leader set's- up within the first 15 seconds right after leaving the aircraft on a best heading and pre-determined speed to take the formation to the opening point and to allow the formation to build behind them. Their resposibility is to remain stable and to only hold their heading and speeds to allow the followers to enter their specific slots .... Therefor, they should not in any way be moved inside any grid over their photo from left to right or forward or back in their box or diamond ... Essentially they really should have NO BOX space or diamond space AT ALL ---only a POINT in the dead center of the lead and or center Grid box, diamond, circle,.. or whatever is being attempted. Try this with the grid on the 71 way from last year's Elsinore and the redcent Chicago record formation and the August Pepperrall record formation and you will see why I suggest this one improvement and also suggest and hope this one change be applied in Elsinore this year,.... You will see where I am coming from and why doing this one thing will materially contribute to make whatever size formation record results from such a concept of "always following the perfect leader either directly or indirectly"( through the flyers ahead and to the sides) be MUCH MORE REFLECTIVE of what is actually intended in the mind of each of the flyers and what is actually being attempted by each of flyers ,.......and so ,....the resulting "outcome" in terms of "we did it" or " we came close but didn't " as a team formation, wiill be more reflective of the actual skill in the accomplishment of each indivdual ,...but also the overall "team"...ie the collective skills of the flyers,...AND BE MORE SPECIAL and "not easily repeated" ( the thoughts put forth by Zach and not as easily played with OR QUESTIONED by the organizers AND/or JUDGES who might naturally get caught up emotionally in the enthusiasm of any record attempting event to lean toward producing the desired outcome...AND the outcome will always be based on the merit of the positions of both those flyers who can see the leader at all times during the flight....and how well those who can't see the leader can fly off those who can...... ISN"T THAT what the whole thing is about,..in addition to maily being safe and having fun!? I was sad to see what I knew were some of the very best positioned ( ie most skillful pilots in last year's record attempt be made to look less skillful by moving the grid around to accomplish the desired result ... THAT wasn't fair to those "most skillful pilots looking at their implied performance ,..and it isn't fair to everyone who feels they did something they really didn't do as per the original stated intentions for the formation and the actual thing they were trying to accomplish on each jump. ( BUT I also agree that the whole thing WAS a reord of sorts in that it was majestic, beautiful and "almost accomplished ----this year shoud be the year of no questions ---and I wish everyone that... I wish I could be there with you) I rerad Matt's/Zacks/Andrea/Spot/Lurch and several less conservative poster's comments tonight ( and "they are" ALL out flying wingsuits constantly) I agreed with Zack , Matt , Andre and Spot that input should be encouraged,.. not discouraged (even by nuance) and tha seeing problems without offering a solution is not of insignificant value. I especially agree and believe that a national or world record should represent something very special and not easily accomplished" I hope to be in one next year so I want it to 'really MEAN SOMETHING special in terms of accomplishment as well as fun if I'm gonna go for it then. I had hip surgery after I left Pepperall ( I know I wimped out there after a couple jumps) I just wasn't enjoying the full time pain and the lightning bolts of nerves when I landed . So I have been away from all of you great flyers for awhile... But,.. I hope to be healed and back flying this winter down in Sebastian and to be trying to qualify for a Florida record out over the beach and for the world record attempt when it goes to 100 ( if not this year) ... Good luck out there. Rick,..you can fly 'for me" this year ,..OK my friend?...... Wish everyone a safe and fun time.... Enjoy !!! Stoney Life is what happens while we are making other plans.

Yes,..it is silly,... and it is stupid ,..and so was and is jumping a motorcycle over the fountain at Ceasars Palace, or going over a 186 ft waterfall in a kayak, or jumping over 20 tractor trailors on a motorcycle, or flying an airplane through a burning buiding or freeclimbing cliffs of ice or rock without safety ropes or walking to the top of the highest mountain in Europe on tram wire //// and so forth,..... ALL VERY STUPID per somebody,... but we watch the videos of it don't we? ...and for just a moment we "are" that person and we want them to make it without getting hurt and it does something to us inside when they do "make it" (or they don't) Somehting that at that moment does not seem stupid for some reaason. My son's stepfather tells him that his dad is very stupid for jumping out of an airplane and many people think it is stupid to live and sleep with lions and gorillas or to handle cobras or sea snakes underwater orto sit on top of a rocket made of 20,000 moving parts all made by the lowest bidders,.. or ?? Myself I think it is stupid to ride a motorcycle without a helmet or drive when drunk or do back fllips and gainers on either skis or on bikes or motocycles,.. or to intentionally ski off a cliff 307 meters high or jump off a cliff , antenna or structure with only one parachute to rely on, .... but then "everyone" has different opinions on what is stupid from their own personal perspective on what they see as their own tolerance for risk and their own willingness to take that risk to gain "something",..either a sense of accomplishment or comfort, money , power, fame or ???? I really don't know...... ...but someone always has to go first,..or try something and NOT talking about the dangers and the possibilities will not stop someone from trying something... I have been stupid enough to prove that to "myself" a few times in my life.... and I was perhaps "lucky".... or a little skillful, a little lucky and a little "prepared to accept the risk at that moment. Reality ( life or death perhaps) is an illusion,...although apparently a very persistent one. "Einstein" ( with edits) I DO NOT WANT TO ENCOURAGE ANYONE READING THIS TO EVER ATTEMPT TO LAND A WINGSUIT OR TO DO HOOK TURNS OR FLY A WINGSUIT ALONG CLIFFS OR TO JUMP OFF CLIFFS ON SKIS OR TO RUN KAYAKS OFF WATERFALLS OR TO DO ANYTHING ELSE THAT CAN BE, IS FAIRLY OFTEN AND HAS BEEN FATAL TO THE PERSON ATTEMPTING TO DO IT. BUT IF JEB TRYS HIS "STUNT" I WILL BE JUST ONE OF US THAT WILL BE WATCHING AND HOPING HE MAKES IT WIHOUT A SCRATCH ... Life is what happens while we are making other plans.

Damn me I AM WRONG !.... STUPID ME ! the distance travelled at 60 mph in the last 1 second would only be about 91 feet not the stupid number I posted,...... so at 120mph it would only be 180 ft... or 2/3 the length of a football field... I actualll see that as much more easily contollable.... Sorry to be wrong and I still might be... would someone with a better mind please check these numbers! Life is what happens while we are making other plans.

I totally agree with you Spot,..it WOULD BE A STUNT! --not an actual wingsuit event and so that I could get a better visualization of what would be the look of such a stunt ONLY IF it was done "PERFECTLY" (or near perfectly) I decided to crunch some numbers based on a mile = 5,280ft and the acceleration of gravity =32ft/sec/per second in a vacumn and just about the same for our bodies in our atmosphere in a wingsuit with our arms and legs spead out, but not moving forward at all ...( so maybe 30ft/sec/persec.) With respect to Robi's comment on vertical speed not being "THE" critical issue I understand what he is saying and we all should after watching those motorcyle crash videos ,...and yet I only "sorta disagree" UNLESS the stunt WAS performed PERFECT so that the vertical speed got down to 0 (ZERO) or maybe 5 mph just prior to touchdown. Otherwise the vertical speed IS the instant killer of anyone trying the stunt! My number crunching shows that if the vertical speed at touchdown is 20mph the impact "force" on the first place of touchdown ( assume the flyer's chest( skids or otherwise) would be the same as dropping that flyer from a 30 ft ( three story building) in that last 1 second before touchdown ---- ie...CERTAIN DEATH! At 10mph upon touchdown, the "force" would be like dropping from a 15 foot foot high roof straight down onto your chest ( or skids-whatever) ---Again I believe an almost certain death! ( though it could take a little while) at 5 mph upon touchdown the force would be like dropping from about 7 ft. ( an NBAA Player's height)straight down onto your chest -( and I would think THAT amount of force COULD BE ABSORBED by some sort of spring mounted skids and a honeycombed material inside a very tight one piece ecoskeleton around flyer's body....making the vertical force survivable FOR A MODERATE WEIGHT/WELL CONDITIONED FLYER... (YET STILL MUCH MORE THAN I ENCOUNTERED ON MY CHEST FROM ONLY 3 to 4 feet up off that helicopter skid back in 2007)..I was only maybe AT BEST 2 or 3mph when I hit the ground. ( fORCE=MASS X VELOCITY) DONE PERFECTLY of course ,..the vertical speed would be near 0 ( ZERO) at touch down and the only thing the flyer would have to contend with is the forward speed did I just say the "ONLY" THING??????? !!!!!!! THIS is where Robi's point comes to be most apparent! At 60 mph in forward speed ( if the flyer can get to that low a speed in the flare) the flyer would cover 528 feet across the ground in that last 1 second and about 214 ft across the ground ( 2/3's the length of a football field in the last 1/2 second before their touchdown.... NOW THAT is moving..... and obviously if you double the forward speed the distance traveled at 120mph would be 1056 ft in the last 1 second and 528 in the last half second! Soooo,.... the stunt would have to be almost PERFECT FROM A VERTICAL SPEED STANDPOINT ( zero to 5mph in verticl speed..... and at a forward speed somewhere down below maybe 80mph (or less ) for the landing to be both surviveable and "possiblv"controllable enough to avoid serious injury. That means the flyer would have to be able to have enough strength to hold a flare while burning off forward speed and not dropping at more than 5 mph while holding that speed to get what I would call a potentially predictable survivable "STUNT". Somebody IS going to try it and there ARE maybe people who can pull it off.....or maybe there is something new coming in technology or understanding of forces that will allow different numbers and predictions.... That's how I see it for now,....so I agree with Spot at this point... It is NOT a skdive/dropzone topic woth kicking around and yet by kicking such things around, we come to realize the awesome forces that lie just outside that "comfortable envelope" we now enjoy and we may perhaps spark someone's creativity to analyze and see things differently . It "is" actually people who do that , who have most changed the world they live in. So the topic and question was and is relevant ...despite the temptation for immediate dismissal of the possibility for "Perfection" Life is what happens while we are making other plans.

reference: my prior comments including :..... it WILL eventually "be attempted and eventually will be "done"....... How many people have gone over Niagara falls in a barrel or with nothing and look at what height waterfalls the kayak guys are now doing. I have seen some really hard and fast landing falls from motorcyle jumps back from Evil Knieval's days on through today///// ( its just a matter of time, money, a the willingness for someone who is good enough and adventurous enough to believe they "can" do it , then gets the right physical training, mental preparation and also gets some very good planning and exact execution) xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx SEE OUTSIDE MAGAZINE AUGUST (page 28)=plunge by kayaker from 186 foot straight down and impacting water below( surface tension broken by falling water) The man who attempted this from 182 feet off Niagara Falls back in 1990 died ! THIS guy DID IT with no injury from 186 ft 19 years later. SO a wingsuit landing onto water WILL be attempeted and done,....and then a wing suit landing onto level land WILL be attempted and DONE. WHY????? I can not answer that ---only the indivduals who eventually do it can . I hope no one dies trying or gets really messed up trying it ,..but it WILL BE TRIED AND DONE .... THAT is just the nature of the way some men and women "ARE". I do not have to agree with the fact that they try something for me to understand that there is something that is worth the risk for them to make the attempt. When the speed of sound was broken,...no one really knew if the aircraft would flutter and tear itself and the pilot apart during the transition from sub-sonic to supersonic flight ...( including the pilot) AND he failed several times right at the edge of the sound barrier and almost killed himself....Others did die in getting to "that" point in testing man's limits! BUT he went up again and tried,..until he succeeded. It wasn't a "routine" thing then.... and it was all theoretical and a learning environment "until" it happened. NOW it "is" not exactly rountine either but very accepted as doable,...(even though somewhat restricted to those who have the money to get there) Lurch,.. We agree on everything you are saying and there is no reason a flight has to be more than a minute or so before an actual landing.... BUT I DO NOT want to come across as in any way encouraging anyone to attempt doing what I believe "can" be done... However what I want or don't want is irrelevent to this thread and the eventual outcome. It WILL be attemped and DONE! The timing IS indeed critical and will require many many practice jumps by a talented flyer (with the visual perception and brain hand eye reactions of a McEnroe) at higher altitudes first with good telemetry data to establish the optimum glidepath and then some sort of lightweight radar altimeter device and a heads up display that would provide a visual glideslope to advise the flyer whether they are on the planned glideslope landing arc ( so that a small abort- landing-chute could be deployed in the next phase of practice jumps over a deep swoop pond onto which water is being sprayed to break the water's surface tension)---A light tiny water activated 4 or 5 breath scuba device for underwater might be a good idea too with a couple standby divers for flyer recovery. After all of that ,... a landing on earth could be attempted with some confidence or at least a better assessment of the risks and tolerances. I sorta feel that a wingsuit that is airlocked is ALREADY a form of descending ram air parachute "wing" so even if a wingsuit "IS" landed;... is it really a "wingsuit" ? a person in a parachute? or a "Fabric structural wing" ?or fabric "hang-glider" ? with a person's body being substituted for an aircraft fuselage .... The definition of "whatever is what " begins to become blurred..... I DO think it would be really cool to have some type of a lighter-weight wearable suit that would allow us to launch somewhat like a hangglider and then climb using thermals and maybe a little power generated from the suit's internal thin lightwieght lithium batteries and solar panel material, then swoop and flock together as we do now ( descending while the relative air turns a bladed fan generator to recharge the batteries and then we do the climb thing again and swoop and flock again covering perhaps 20 or 30 miles before returning to land either then with or without some small lightweight parachute device. THAT is where I believe we ARE going as creative beings and I believe THAT will be done within the next 50 years or less.... I wish I could be here to see that... Today's fantasies are tomorrow's realities. We'll "find" a way. And isn't it somewhat arrogant for any of us to imply that we now have already discovered "every" potential force or technology that exists in the universe that could be related to lift/drag/gravity etc.... and that there is nothing left to discover that might easily allow us to do what I just said would be a really cool thing to do.......... (or even more). What would someone have thought from 100 years ago to look into the sky today and see a space shuttle launch, a moon landing , a C5A flyover or 76 people flocking in the sky and then opening their parachutes to land softly on the ground//////// I am going to dream about all this tonight.... I hope Spot will too! I just read your blog Spot--- My thanks for your personal energy! Life is what happens while we are making other plans.

Reference: Placing the armor around the back chest or wherever will not protect the human from serious injury or death. The outcome is similar if you confront two tanks and make them frontal crash at high speed ( 50 mph) Whole crew in both tanks will be dead despite the tons of protection around them... There is no deformation zone... analogy to this is that it is irrelevant if the chest cage would be smashed from impacting on the grass, concrete, asphalt or will be crashed from impacting in to body armor... XXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXX So,...what I think I hear you saying is that some sort of material like an advanced honeycombed foam rubber shock absorbant or an advanced composite technology honeycomb inpact absorbing crush zone material in between two layers of kevlar like is used in a bullet proof vest,...( and like what is used in racing helmets and in the head on frontal crash force absorbant technology on cars ,...WOULD NOT allow "for the possibility" of no damage being done to a lightweight but good conditioned and muscular human body that had conditioned itself over time to more and more shock in the anticipated landing portion of the body... If the inside of those tanks were coated with two feet of some advanced foam rubber and each of the guys in the tanks had a ball of that foam robber two foot thick around them , they WOULDN"T SURVIVE THE CRASH? I would disagree.... unless the actual de-acceleration from the sudden stop had enough force to tear out their aortas or damage other internal organs like their brain..... I don't know what the impact force and deacceleartion force would have to be to do THAT kind of an instant "kill" or to cause internal bleeding for a slow death, but I "think" it would have to be much greater than the perhaps 10 mph vertical speed vector I have been guesstimating and envisioning in my mind for a successful well timed and executed flare to actual landing touchdown at say a 60to 80 mph forward speed. Like I said,....I could be and probably "am" wrong... I have done more damge to myself walking into the corner of walls in dark hotel rooms than I have coming off motorcycles at 35 to 40mph into grass fields severla times in my 20's , so the speeds do not seem to create a predictable outcome for "my body"..... However I think suggesting human legs as potential landing gear for a landing at say 60 to 80mph forward speed and 10mph vertical speed I would anticipate would certainly cripple and tear the backbone out of any human being..... Given a "FORCED AT GUNPOINT choice,..I would go with the type of honeycombed force absorbing one piece ecoskeleton I was suggesting and with impact wear away low friction material , spring loaded shock absorbing skids on the bottom body, head and shouders of the one piece ecoskelton ( like I saw being used on all the jets that have been designed for wheels up landings under FARPart25 since 1978)..... That's all from me.....on "this" topic. My prediction statement stands and I'll bet anyone one hundred bucks. ( remember ---within the next 20 years !) " Stoney" ( just another of the pre-winter trolls) Matt H? you are a mechanical engineer,... what would the forces "be" on three skids 4 inches apart running longitudinally along a body ecoskelton for a "Lurch type human ( strong. tough, muscular) at touchdown ( let's say 145lbs in the suit of mass traveling at say a 60mph and 80mph forward speed and a 10mph vertical speed.....??? I'm just curious if any comparison can be done to other sports like the forces of hitting a wall in a stockcar going 80 to 100mph or a flipping Grand Prix auto at 100mph I have seen land from 20 feet up and have the driver survive somehow? Life is what happens while we are making other plans.

Actually Robi, I sorta already did that ,..from the helicopter back at F&D in 2008,... from around three to four feet.....and without any forward speed ( cause I was told "not" to push off from the skid,....but WITH a rotor blast tha drove me into the ground before I could even get my arms out fully extended,.... ( and I bouced from my belly-chest to my face twice and slightly altered the shape of my nose ( my chest,face and bellly hurt for a few days and my nose for a few weeks just like the time when I hit a tree head-on in the Sierra Madre Mountains at about 40 mph and was saved by my belt and airbag/// but the impact "is" indeed survivable....I had planned to go fromonly a foot or two but the pilot said he couldn't do that without catching a rotor tip so I asked him "to give me what he could"... I still wonder how much damage I would have done to myself if he had given me 6 to 8 feet instead of 3 or four... ( I really think things would have been MUCH worse) ,... However, "without" the rotors "blasting me downward" and with a little bit of forward speed like maybe dropping from a real slow ultra light or hang-glider with enough time for the wingsuit to airlock and with a good arching flare,...( which "was" my thought process when I decided at first to try it from the helicopter,...I really believe I could have landed on the ground with not much more damage than I actually encountered ( I keep in mind that in hindsight,...it would "not have taken much more force" on landing to have perhaps broken my ribs, puncturing a lung , hit hard enough to syop my heart or hit so as to cause internal bleeding or brain damage,....so I am not planning to recreate that event,...BUT if I were younger, weighed only half what I do , had maybe 40 to 50 mph of forward speed,...and an upper body protective stiff kevlar suit with skids and "a real soild protective helmet" ALL made to absorb impact with some layer of honeycomb "something" ,..I actually do believe a landing could be injury free. I suppose a ski boat witth a ramp pointing inland or a launch from front hood of a quick braking truck into a swoop pond ( like I had in mind at Tiki in 08 ) and then a launch from the same hood onto some soft plowed ground could test my theory,..but for my part,.. I'm just not THAT interested in finding out if I'm right or wrong! I "was" once but I'm over it now. Someone WILL land a wingsuit before Matt Hoover gets to be my age!.... Matt and Scotty,...I hope you are both there for the video and stills when it either happens or doesn't happen,...but either way it WILL eventually "be attempted and eventually will be "done"....... How many people have gone over Niagara falls in a barrel or with nothing and look at what height waterfalls the kayak guys are now doing. I have seen some really hard and fast landing falls from motorcyle jumps back from Evil Knieval's days on through today///// ( its just a matter of time, money, a the willingness for someone who is good enough and adventurous enough to believe they "can" do it , then gets the right physical training, mental preparation and also gets some very good planning and exact execution) Life is what happens while we are making other plans.

Lurch,...both you and Matt Hoover ( the 111) are talking most logically from my perspective. First a bold statement: : A human being WILL intentionally land a "wingsuit" on level "earth" leaving a flying aircraft or helicpopter and departing thousands of feet above the ground ( perhaps after intial water landings and ski-jump type ramp landings for test purposes) and they will do it in the next 20 years. It can be done sooner if someone with enough money to fund the project and the right flyer appear sooner than that) I have seen Jeff's brief vertical climb data ("albeit with a 120 to 140mph forward speed),...and something like the soft talcum-like "Playa" out in Nevada or a level, plowed, closely planted and cultivated wheat field could be a usable landing area. Morphing "sewable" fabrics exist now that could allow the arm and leg wings to be stretched during a landing flare to provide some forward speed braking jsut prior to touchdown and fabric bi-wings, deploable flaps and SIMPLE aerodynamic slats and airbrakes can be designed to deploy at the last moment below certain forward speeds to reduce the actual touchdown impacts horizontal force vector ... Hard "fabric landing low-friction material or lubricated rub-skids/strakes could be used on the flyers head, the sides and the chest portion of a stiiffer fabric ONE-piece "kevlar/nomex honeycomb cored" fabric head/shoulder/neck/upperbody protective section of the suit so as to allow for touchdown without head/neck and back injury. Now a comment and question: At what point does a "fabric "wingsuit no longer become a wingsuit and instead become a piloted "aircraft stucture" made of fabric (piper cub wings were once fabric) Oh,..I can just 'see' the comments when someone actually does land a wingsuit ..... ie "it wasn't just a wingsuit ....it was a stucture so really an aircrasft glider etc etc".... Now another comment ....... somewhat sick maybe,..but possible.... Suppose we have a "human being" who is a midget/dwarf/small person/Paraplegic or maybe the physical result of a severe eating disoreder (or whatever)...and therefore is very "lightweight ... Now ,...suppose this same human being is DEFINITELY adventurous (or money motivated) and wants to me the first human being to land a fabric wingsuit. Can a control system be designed for such a human that would allow them control, flare and land an all fabric wingsuit ? I think so ..... Lurch/Matt/others? .....put your minds to the above comments and PLEASE,..if it ever happens to "ME" that I somehow become very lightweight, (LOL -you've seen me eat! ) remind me of these comments of mine and I'm pretty sure I'll be willing to be the flyer who tries the first such landing. I came off a Husquevarna motocycle at 20 years old and at about 45mph in a tall grass field without anything but my helmet and Motocross boots on ...( and yes it was very painful for a week or so but I didn't break any bones, and I survived with just some neck and cervical compression I live with) I have seen professional racers come off bikes and skis and out of hyroplane boats at 100mph plus and survive the impacts .....so I DO believe that even a "botched landing" can be survived.... The only question I have is... ?WHY? ....why would someone want to attempt such a thing, make the investment of money and time needed, and take the risk of dying or of a serious injury..... if the accomplishment does not in some way contribute to the sport or to others being able to do something similar on a consistent, safe and fun basis???/--or to show what certain people are capable of when presented with a seemingly impossible challenge. Personally,...there have been time I really can't explain when I have taken great pleasure in just doing something that others told me was probably impossible to do without really getting hurt or killed.I'm not really sure why,...except that I just wanted to do it ast that moment and for some reason I "just knew" I was "not" going to be hurt or killed(and for some reason that always gave me a feeling of calmness, clarity and focus- not an adrenaline high at all ) that I enjoyed feeling during those moments when I was totally ignoring the possibility that "they" could be right. I believe many and surely most people would call that stupid, reckless, a deathwish, something else even more derogatory,..or even some sort of courage,...BUT while I don't really know what it was ( except really feeling more "connected" to life and past explorers of the unknown ,..I "do" know it was NONE of those former things people may have thought ( at least for me and at those moments) . I assume there are many others out there now ( or to come) who will have that similar feelings and that one or more of them will relate it to the landing of a fabric wingsuit on level ground without a parachute. Sooooo.... A fabric wingsuit WILL be landed and survived... and eventually will be landed "safely" ...I belive it is something that is just a matter of time ( and I hope a result of some good planning, research and implementaion) Life is what happens while we are making other plans.

John,...is that the 25 way from Chicago on your DZ.com profile??? It "looks pretty", symetrical and damn near "perfect" !... wherever it was,...well done ! Life is what happens while we are making other plans.

I don't really ( concptually and flying) "get into" the triangles,squares,pentagons and stuff that can be moved around to "judge" a formation ( but Ilove to see and feel "a sense of symmetry and connection in the sky or in a picture,... To me ,..this pic posted by Ed is indeed "almost perfect "visually" ( except for 4th row back ,3rd from left being a couple feet back) Anyway, I "think" I witnessed a more visually perfect 16 way slot specific diamond at F&D Zhills late March/early April 2007,... led by Scott Bland,.....and the photo made it onto Parachutist. Later that year I saw a DZ.com picturre posted by Zunn from France with a visually perfect formation of 12 to 16, It sems ( perhaps only to me) that since everyone is building on and following a stable heading "base" flyer like Scott B, Jeff, Justin or Purple Mike,... and the two best positioned flyers "should be" right next to and behind that "base",... that whatever measurement "tool" is being used to judge a formation should have the base flyer's body either dead center or "damn near" the center of the leading box, triangle , circle or? and the three immediately adjacent to the base ( both sides and behind ) also damn near in the center of their boxes, tiangles or ??? "THAT" four man front diamond seems ( perhaps only to me) to be the front of any really "visually eye catching, symetrically pleasing formation and the core essence from which a then "respectable" visually perfect and "measured perfect" formation can be judged. (if we must judge to be happy) Moving the "measurement tool gid" all around to get the one best "fit",... even if it puts the base off tp one side or well forward or behind in whatever geometric shape is being used,.... just seems (to me) "wrong somehow" and )for me) it actaully seems to "skew" the formation's essence of symmetry and opens any conclusions of judging to skeptics and potential detractor's comments. ( that then seems to lemd itself to pushing some flyers apart rather then pulling flyers together) I enjoyed watching the flyers at this Casa Boogie "playing" as well as flying for measurements. Fun, colllective joy and personal satisfaction can never be put into a box or measured by a grid. Please start posting all the pictures of the rabbit chases, rodeos. batton passing and the perfect clouds we "didn't " chase..... Life is what happens while we are making other plans.

FANTASTIC!! ....AND 25 PERFECTION ! I also see that "little mini-me Turner" made it into his center box in his little suit... (that's cute!)......Way to go Turner,...and DAD!

Thank you speed racer for a concept I now can add to those I have heard and experienced while alive my 63 years... And Ron "is" right about the 60's after jumping bonfire discussions... They went beyond the beer, high tech, sex, and jumping ---but at times today they still do. It is part of "my nature" to seek growth of my spirritual inner self while accepting that so much will always remain mysterious and abstractual. I usaully only go right to the wing suit forum,..but the thread subject caught my eye and my seeker nature. I sum up the spirituality aspect of life by believing that whatever the specific spirtual or religios beliefs,some human beings "Choose" to believe that theri live or lives MATTER beyond just the time we live her in our bodies on earth ,....and some people choose not to believe that... I choose to believe there is some ultimate truth and creative force and that my life does count and matter beyond what I do or what I leave as a legacy behind me here in life,....AND if I'm wrong,...I'll never know or miss a thing. I have no unpleasant memories of before I was born and therefor I do not fear moving into nothingness IF what I choose to believe IS wrong. Sooo,..my belief allows me to live with a spritual freedom from fear in life (or "of death" )because I for me the eventual ultimate outcome isn't and never has been in any doubt :( Life either counts and matters or it doesn't) I just wish we all would believe whatever we "choose to believe as individuals ( without the need to be 'told' what we should or shouldn't believe by other 'humans") and not try to convince others that our beliefs are better than any others or try to force or manipulate others to believe in the same way we do. To qoute Kenny Roger's The Gambler: "There'll be plenty of time for counting,..when the game is done" For my spirit and soul ,...life does COUNT ( in some way) Even so,...I admire those who live good decent lives with stong values and integrity even though they do not believe that there is any life after life and that their life here only matters while we are here... those such as Aynn Rand... The ultimate scientist Einstein, believed that where science ended,.. Spirituality began .... I can live ( and die) with that. You ALL have a fun,meaningful and great life! Thanks again, "Stoney" Condor 1: "we eat our dead" Life is what happens while we are making other plans.

You know ,..each and all these techniques are really interesting and I have tried a couple since my two chops,.... This is one of (if not the most) common deployment initial problem for new and experienced wing suit flyers. It isn't "always" easily predictable by body position. I just had an idea: ( it happens once or twice a year) How about Flock U in the USA (and someone else overseas) putting together a hanging harness trainer device like what is used with Safety Day re-current training harnesses for malfunctions and cutaways....BUT with enough risor and line length that we can induce twists for the wearer...(easy simple ones and ones with sliders twisted into really wickedly tight bunches!) ... We can then try out all these different techniques ( maybe with a hangar fan blowing to simulate the expected wind flow from the twist) It could be both shipped around and brought around to our major flock events and used for early training as well as by experienced flockers to reduce the "oh shit" effect and time loss,..increase awareness of various twists and through trial and error repititon, develop mind and muscle memories that could save some of us some valuable seconds when the evil twists actually do come .( as they seem to occassionally do) Maybe it will save some chops, reserve rides, out landing injury risks, repacks or even a life? I'll donate a couple hundred bucks to help develop such a device.... and I will definitely "use it" to practice the ideas I have read on this thread. With the use of a raised table or the ground to just lie on,...we could even simulate a line snagged on a helmet, camera or foot.... I'd be curious to try some coordinated reaches ,moves and simulated line line cuts on snags like that,... that I have only visualized in my head so far....( and learn what works from some others who have had such snags) What'cha think? Stoney Life is what happens while we are making other plans.

1. Purple Mike 2. Michal M 3. Obama 4. J-Sho 5. Andreea 6. Dan M -- no handlebars 7. Stu 8. Scott Gray 9. Chris Gray 10. MonkeyBoy 11. Taya 12. "One Ball" Rick 13. "responsible" Phil Peggs 14. Mark K. 15. "irresponsible" one and a half ball "Stoney" Life is what happens while we are making other plans.

No worries Scott,...They showed you as the wounded hero,... returning to lead your flock to safety despite all of them being stunned by the loss of their leader and "in complete dissaray" I have not felt that inspired since I watched Wallace motivate his men in Bravehart.... In the years to come,...wing suit flock leaders will be heard to say" "You folllowed with Bland,...Now follow with me" ! ( you are sorta a big red target out there framed by the white wings of an angel waiting for the unknown) That does take guts! Life is what happens while we are making other plans.

I never got a free suit from Tony or Jeff or Justin ( I've bought 3 ),....but I do appreciate what they have offered me in terms of a suit ( the original SM1) that was able to help me get near and level with flocks and then into flocks that smaller winged suits wouldn't have allowed me to participate in . They also worked with me on modifying my arm wings on my next SM1 to reduce the stress on my bad shoulder. And I see them constantly improving and actually trying and using ideas that I and otehrs have suggested but mostly coming up with their own new ideas. ( like what I just saw Justin flying this past week) The very best form of flattery (and of achieving the evolved improvement of anything), is said to be in "imitation" ..and Tony flattered the then existing wingsuit manufacturers with some of his design when he started first building his suits and the current wingsuit designers are obviously flatterring Tony's design innovations with some of their more recent designs... That kind of using what works is great and I would really LIKE to hear more on this forum from the flyers of the different suits as to where they see their suits advantages or disadvantages as it relates to different ways of flying... Which wing suit do you fly now and why? and thanks in advance for any ideas, mods or insights that you, Yuri and others can offer "all" of us, no matter what suit we fly. That's what this forum is for.... ( and No ,...I am not being sarcastic---I mean that ) I'm not addicted or beholdeing to Tony in terms of what suit I buy next. I will buy and fly whatever suit most allows my old "heavy" body with a bad shoulder and hip to still keep having fun and enjoying the commaraderie, laughs and challenge that flocking gives me. I will also buy a perhaps second suit that lets me go up and stay up there in the sky for as long as I possibly can on each jump and cover as much ground as I can in that time without any real care about how fast I am going forward....or what my ratio is ....or isn't . I'm not a competitor or high performance oriented flyer (although I like a balance of performance,safety and value in what I buy) If I see a design that can give me a "Quantum" improvement in time, safety, and distance as a combination for my body to enjoy flying in some other manufacturer's suit,... I'll buy it right then. I have never witnessed anyone ( in any way other than teasing ) be looked at, thought of , opr talked about in the flock of friends I have as "not a Tony suiter" . And yet I sense that there may be or is some element of "elitism or "we're the best and somehow special" in some of the comments I have read on this forum by people flying the Birdman suits or Morpheus suits .... ( maybe that is just teasing too,...or maybe it is because Luic, Robi Zunn, Scott, Chuck and others were perhaps the unchallenged very best flyers in those suits for so long--I don't know because i was not paying attention then ) Actually,.. I spent a few days with Zunn and I never heard Zunn say one thing about anyone's suit... He just puts his company's suit design on and goes out and flys with all the rest of us. Look at the back of my rig someday if you get the chance and you'll see the words: "We Are All One" That says it all ( for me) .... Enjoy and have a great life!!! Stoney Life is what happens while we are making other plans.

I've already seen the actual collision many times on the Discovery Channel as a very quick preview for tonights show... Great filming Matt.... as usual ---I'be watching and it's good to see you makin some side bucks off of your talent..... hopefullly you and Scotty can continue doing that. Hey Scotty??what did you ever do with that vid when I came flying over you when you were on your back looking up at me at Peperrall----that was probably a little scary.... and how the vid from Sebastian two years back when where Jeff rolls onto his back just I/1000 and 1 frame before Nick shot through the spot he was just at (at mach 2) ..... Scott Gray's arm and side bruises from Elsinore should make good B film too. Like I said ,...I'll be watching. Thanks for the heads up... I never saw that Jade vid before ,...OMG sooo glad they stayed calm did their thing and both lived. Life is what happens while we are making other plans.

Bravo and Congratulations Tony..... and that's coming from a "known Male Bitcher"( my suits too hot,..the aircraft doors are too small, it's too far to drive, etc. etc. ,.... ) So from this "Yank" to you : Way to go ! .... It's all just fun and whoever flys the best wearing whatever he or she is weraing on any one day,...and "you", Jeff and others in your suits seem to have eatablished a very consistent trend in "combined suit and flying technique" performance ,... I know my 234 Lb body ( in between meals ) and bad shoulder ( braced and taped) would never have been able to get down to 55mph ( once) or to hold 61or 62 mph to stay level with some flocks ( "for most of the time") without me wearing your Super Mach One. I once maxed my prior SM1 out at 147 seconds over Z hills flying a few hundred feet away from,.. but next to Scotty Bland. ( and he saw the neptune #'s when we landed ) We both departed at 13,500 altitude and with just one left turn out the door,... I opened at 2500 and that was "more than enough time and shoulder pain" for me to ever want... my arms were shaking! ..... I know nothing about L/D, and wind effects on that flight and on that day other than we were going downwind on a normal day but I know Scotty Bland and I " went a long way" that day,..from well out over the city of Zhills to beyond the DZ, ( and I have seen Jeff go much farther past the DZ ,...turn around and come back to open ) ,...In my SM1 at my weight I also know I can cover a lot of ground when I don't bend my legs to stay with lighter guys,..( ask Chuck Blue) ,..... but they all catch up and then I see them pass me at slower speeds higher up above me as they stay up there longer... So really? ...does any of that specicfic ## stuff even matter on a typical sunny day while flocking or carving puffies? I get lost in the reasoning as to why anyone wants to create mini conflicts between us birdy folks or challenge one competition day's "realities" with theoretical thoughts on what could have been if "whatever" ( except designers) Why would I want to know all the specific #'s except when in competition like you were or when test piloting a new design like I know Jeff, Chuck, Zunn, Scott Campos and Justin etc all do ( and Roby did) to make the best suits possible or to plan precise military type flight mission. Anyway,..VERY good job Tony! Keep making the suits beter and better... I just know I will see someone in my lifetime land a wingsuit without anything but maybe an aerodynamic "simple" deployable drag device or drogue parachute ( like the schuttle or SR71 use to slow down their forward speeds just at or just before before touchdown),... And when that happens ,..I don't really "care" who's suit it's done in,.... but I"ll guess that it might be one of yours or a uit based on some adaptation of your suits. Thanksto you and Jeff for creating something that has given me the chance for the last two+ years of fun in my life. Stoney

Be out on Sunday.... doing 'paperwork' stuff today,...It was real rainy last night and this morning --- --but appears to be clearing this pm...----gosh where did the day go --it's 6:40 pm...see you tommorow... and see you all AT THE CASA BOOGIE! Last year's was one of the best boogies I've ever been to ! It's nice and cool up here in the northeast ! ( so far ) Any chance of maybe a beach landing and lobster eating night to make up for the beach landing cancellation back in June when the Otter got hit at Lebanon??? That would be ultra wonderful and an extra special attraction for flockers I bet! Life is what happens while we are making other plans.

We're in position at the Red Roof near Pepperall a month early..... Stoney and Argo Life is what happens while we are making other plans.

Justin just told me you are hurting Douglas. I'm sending you some old but powerful energy to help you heal... I know we'll be seeing you when you are ready again,.... and I'll "take you with me" on my next "spirit puffy flight".... Stoney Life is what happens while we are making other plans.

While not totally related to this thread ( yes--deploying intentionally on your back is totally stupid!) this thread has made me think of something that could burn one of us someday,... so I thought I would mention it here. Based on my experiencing "my own stupidity" ( again) recently at Sebastian,.. I now "believe" and "suggest" that no wing-suiter should remain flying on their back below 4500 feet ( 5 to 10 seconds after a 5000 to 5500ft break-off from a flock)----or even on a solo flight, "UNLESS" they "ABSOLUTELY KNOW" there is NO CHANCE of another wingsuiter from their flight (or another earlier jumper) being already open ahead and below them. You just CAN'T see what you CAN'T see in front of you and possibly coming at you when you are flying on your back. That's ok at higher altitudes ( unless maybe there's a big bird, ( hawks and vultures at Sebsatian),..a glider or aircraft below you and ahead of you that you can't see coming,....and that's a very low risk thing. But as you get lower and nearer to potential deployment altitudes,... I believe back flying risks can get a bit higher. Here's how "I screwed up" and how in doing so, I got this idea about the potential safelty of low altitude backflying: I forgot to reset my deployment alert altitudes on both my helmet ditters after the last jump one day at Sebastian( I was stinging a mid-size flock on that jump and I wanted to open higher on that jump to have some extra altitude to work with in getting back to the DZ. ,..so I set my ditters 1000 ft higher) Anyway,...I completely forgot to reset the altitudes at the end of the day. On my first jump the next day, I flew near the front of the flock and at break-off at 5500ft I maxed myself out slightly off staright forward away from the flock leader. When my deployment alerts sounded,...( at 4000 ft again) I kicked my legs and I deployed ( so I was opening at about 3900 and open by 3400 ior 3500 ft. instead of at my usual 2400 to 2500 ft . I then saw two wingsuit flyers pass me about 50 yards or so off on both sides of me WHILE THEY WERE STILL ON THEIR BACKS ! They saw me then also as they flew by. While our horizontal seperation was safe enough (in this case),..when they asked me on the ground why I opened high and I then figured out why I had,...I also started to think about how safe it was to be back flying after breakoff and approaching the usual deployment altitudes. I just thought I would mention this and now let those of you who back fly down lower give it some thought... On my belly I can see forward and see any tandem chutes,.. ( stupid-stoney).. or student chutes open down and now out in front of me,..and that allows me to avoid them and pick my opening line...... On your back as you get lower,....doing that seems a bit riskier.... Stoney Life is what happens while we are making other plans.

Oh geez and damn! No !! ... it just doesn't seem right or fair,..but no death ever is for friends and loved ones. I am sorry for the loss Rob's family and all his friends are feeling. Rob,.. I choose to believe that whatever comes after this life is as much or more full of the beauty, challenge, adventure and fun as you found here. So you do your thing there and stay tuned into your family and to those of us still here. We'll be there with you soon enough. Life is what happens while we are making other plans.

very nice video./// that's some good "slow exit evidence" and good well integrated tunes! Thanks Matt, Stoney Life is what happens while we are making other plans.