stoney3434

OK,...I just got back from my dinner date with the gal from GoDaddy.com and I now have $2500 less and my domain name... Send my pictures to: www.sucker/[email protected] I used my full frontal nudity trick again as protection.... (it gets them every time!) ....she threw up and ran from my SUV out of the restuarant parking lot. Life is what happens while we are making other plans.

I do or I don't go up,... I'm not "stressing about the picture,..but it would be "fun" to see what alot of my friends have done... After seeing the first few photos,...I fully expect it to be awesome! I'll try to search on Facebook... I looked at Taya's website and on Spot's earlier today,...but no photos were there... I don't believe organizers want a bunch of hyped critisism,..but they may have agrreed to certain terms of release or sale,..and that's fine. ( I would like to know and and have enough advance notice to see Media stuff before my non-jumping son calls me and says he saw it on MSNBC or something Yahoo news) Life is what happens while we are making other plans.

You are taking this too serious buckwheat. You are not enjoying the ride.....thats a shame cuz thats what Jari told us to do in the beginning. after the reference to the song :....."but then I got high", ( which was very funny) I lost touch with concepts like "golf clap" ??!! Is that a disease or a subtle acknowledgement of creative funniness,...and.... .... where has this thread gone?? Is there a picture of the record formation out there in cyberspace some where--- (without the grid) It should be beautiful and I would sure like to see it after following these folks most of last year before my hip got bad. Life is what happens while we are making other plans.

Spot ,....I was about to ask you "what record"?,... but then I went to Taya's thread blog and saw the following posted there (on Thursday? November 12th? )? ...mentioning that record would be shown on The Today Show the 'next morning ( Thursday morning )" Today is Friday in the USA so I missed it.... xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx : 2009 November 12 by admin .Two judges today evaluated a photograph and video footage of our wingsuit formation record attempts and declared a new valid US National Wingsuit Record! Footage from the jumps will be shown on the Today show tomorrow (Thursday) morning, as well as local news channels. More coming soon, including photos, but it’s been a long day and we all need to get some rest. xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx I have no idea of at what time (admin ??) Taya? /Jeff?/ whoever? posted this info,.. but I'm just seeing it on Friday November 13 ( I think) . I didn't see anything on DZ.com's wingsuit forum at all so far... ( it's probably being posted while I two-finger type this) From one of the postings on Steve,... I was under the impression that there 'was' a formation record set ( judged by the USPA grid the organizers used) on Wenesday, November 11, sometime ( ??? ) and that Steve was jumping after that on a fun jump... So,... now that the big news channels and media and judges have certified it,...can we see the picture please? ( or do we have to wait until Parachutist and other media get it to show us??) We don't need to see the grid placement,..just the beautiful photo---(we all understand by now what the grid is and isn't) Congratulations to everyone who was a part of the record formation!!!! ,...and now since you have done the record and still have most of the event days left,..are you going to try to break that record ... Admin??? (Spot,..maybe you can get in on those formations) And Spot,..we've heard you.....and "some" of the other flyer's reading your post probably even understand conceptually or in detail just what you are saying 'with your underlines' ,...( and what you aren't) ( I certainly don'tfor sure) ,... but after listening to DZ overheard comments during this past year ,..and some recent PM's,...I have my own thoughts. I'm sure other's like me have wondered what the hell "the politics of all this" we keep hearing about actually "is" and why? Frankly,..I was very confused ( and maybe naive) about what took place last year while I was "at" the event,.. and then in the month after the event while we all awaited a picture and the actual judging grid criteria... , ( I had my guesses that I kept between myself and a few friends,..but I only recently tried to help others refine the judging criteria to require more exact flying, be less open to manipulation of "best fit" and perhaps inspire more participation. Before the event I was asked to be patient because some good stuff would be coming out in the days before or during the record... I havn't seen any of that so far, but anyway,..it's a shame that any such things,..be it personal politics, pride of authorship, disagreements on what is and isn't manipulation, control/money/regognition????factors or such have to be part of "any" group team effort ,..but it is actually just the reality of human group dynamics. It is "REALLY" a special shame that you didn't get to participate considering "all" the technical assistance, loyalty and the effort you made for over a year into and on behalf of what was being done... ( but, now that this year's event is over ( if it is over? ) perhaps the tensions can be openly aired and maybe also solicited from all the jumpers who are known to be skilled qulaified flyers,..but didn't show up this year,..and done so in that way that future events will benefit.... It's still early in the evolution process... Life is what happens while we are making other plans.

Fair enough Thanks and sorry it was Brian who said he found them too long to read. I think I'm starting to get too "attached" personally to all this, since it seems so simple to me. So anyway, I've said my stuff ... Thanks for at least reading my thoughts. Everyone has a right to their own conclusions ! That's what freedom "is" ! Fly safe... Life is what happens while we are making other plans.

Spot,...maybe ask later if you can just go out last from one of the planes and get to watch the whole thing build from higher and in the middle --- They let me do that on the very last 73 way jump last year after the 71 way record, as the formation flew toward the mountains and sunset ---( it's worth doing! ) Life is what happens while we are making other plans.

I hear ya! I was diving in back there on two loads last year and I know what you mean ---- I wouldn't trade "those two "memories" of what I saw for all the photos in the world....( no offense there Scotty and Matt) --- Matt gets to see that on every jump Life is what happens while we are making other plans.

It makes no sense to you because you never took the time to read my earlier long boring posts. Assuming the leader is in the exact intended position as is shown in the pre-declared formation's drawing (with whatever type of judging criteria is used ) DOES NOT mean that anyone is going to be judging "your" perfomance based on someone you can't see,... It simply reflects the TRUTH ( the fact of the matter that the after the first 15 seconds after departure,... the "flock leader" is flying straight on a heading, remaining totally still and stable,( and therefore maintaining a constant speed ) so that those who "can see him" can take and correct their positions relative to his .... The leader should never and WILL NEVER have the intent to ove or actually will move to correct his position. He cares nothing about flying in a position by refence to ANY OTHER Flyers ....( even if a wingman flys out in front of him) If those behind the leader make small errors in their intended positions,.. that does not effect the leader. He can't be burbled at all.... and he can't see them. A man or woman chosen as the leader of any intended predeclared formation SHOULD BE a good enough flyer to "at least remain totally still for 90 to 120 seconds once he or she has assumed their desired heading and speed ( ie body position) . I know Jeff, Justin, Scott Bland, Puple Mike, Gray Mike etc DO EXACTLY THAT when they are leading because I have followed them,...( and THEY DON"T MOVE until break-off ) If you believe that not assuming and not having a non-moving leader isn't a valid assumption for the intended predeclared formation as a basic starting point for judging what happens behind and around them ,..then it really wouldn't make sense to "even try" to put together a big way . Just put any-ol-flyer up there in front and watch what ripples through the formation as everyone trys to correct for that one bad leader's movement. I beleive Jeff puts better flyers up front behind him because he knows they will make only small minor corrections to their spacing off him and off each other rather than the larger corrections and over- corrections that lesser skilled flyers might make . In this group of the core 10 to 15 flyers behind and to the side of Jeff (who either can see him or at least know what part of him they should never see) ..."each" have to be the smoothest correcting, best spatial sensing and the most stable "in reference to others flyers" so that the plane leaders can home in initially on this core and take their spacing from this core group (the "core base" if you want to call it that) The plane leaders and their wingmen/stingers also are selected from the very best of the "reference to others flyers" so they can position themselves spatially somewhat correctly off the leader and the formation core ( initially as they are descending and moving forward into their positions... As I watched it last year,..the plane leaders and their wingmen/stingers actually then acted as a sort of "spatial correcting mechanism" on each side mid way down the front lines ( and possibly in the middle of this year's formation ) They each have fantastic overall situational and positional awareness and are looking down lines /across lines ahead and to each side all at the same time...and making only slow smooth corrections. I suspect that will always leave the somewhat lessor skiled flyers in the back ( as it shoud be) with some really good flyers at the back corners and maybe in the middle to provide a backline cross-checking ability. The only allowance off dead center I can see for a Leader that might be considered is a very small varience of a foot in each direction for possible turbulance and if turbulence hits the leader of "ANY big way" the whole formation is likely to be thrown into total dissaray as each flyer has different reactions and different parts of the turbulence to deal with. I know all this is too long to read,...but I hope it is taken into the thought patterns of whoever is actually making up a group trying to refine the judging criteria for the better. Personally,..I want to always be part of something and of groups who are always trying grow and become better at what they are doing---even if it is just having fun. Life is what happens while we are making other plans.

That looks really nice !! Just "being in" that formation is worth the trip and time ....... No one is way back or way off... You guys and gals can do better ,..but I bet this "morning" photo put a smile on Everyone's face ... there, and "out here".... Well done everyone ! Life is what happens while we are making other plans.

Is long, thourough and explained as best as I possibly can so everone can understand what I'm trying to suggest or put forth actually be coming across as too boring for you to even read to gauge the meirt of the content?? Could my long and through actually be "right"? What I need is an editor ... ( or a life...) I'm bored now too,.. laying around with my bad hip... I was in Jet sales and marketing for over 25 years and somewhow managed to be in the top 5% of the worl;s Jet sales reps ( by selling a whole bunch of jets) and using my sometimes critisized long , boring, but thourough proposals on how to best satisy the needs and goals of my customers. I always hated having to try to educate,convince and persuade others to do what I already had figured out was the best way to do what they wanted and what I could see was best for them,...but I took great delight in eventually having my solutions proven to be correct. ( and at times only after customers did something else and later admitted that they wished they had listened to me --- I love I told you so's! ) But I was wrong at times too ..... in fact,.. "twice". ( any wonder why I'm not married?) No worries all,... I'm going to get some warm milk and go to bed. Life is what happens while we are making other plans.

Recalling the overused response "What planet are you from?",... I have to ask if you are serious when you type something like what you just did in a forum discussion about formation flying criteria.... ( And I very completely presented "why" the leader of a formation,...be it of aircraft or wingsuiters , "IS" something special and different from ALL the other designated flyers in the formation... Please go back and read that and then tell me how what I said has anything to do with the atoms in the compressed carbon of a diamond... ( I suppose I am going to now hear about string and membrane theory next? )- LOL--and I'm just really teasing at this point). Let's try to keep anything we discuss at as simple a level as possible and use analogies and examples that relate to the discussion and also will as many if not "everyone" to understand the discussion and the eventual solution. Nature prefers and favors the simplest solutions . Life is what happens while we are making other plans.

I'm sorry Brian,..but I saw the same thing you did and you asked with your photo while I was 2 finger typing the way to eliminate what you were illustrating so ,..I just got caught up in the discussion like we were all just standing around bouncing around ideas. I'm sorry if I offended you by jumping in,.. the again you weren't really asking a question since your illustrated photo made your point and really did not requie Matt's answer...You well illustrated the weakness in just having "no touch Tit Tak Toe lines" so I just jumped ahead in logic butting in with the solution I could see. I was never good at putting my hand up in school,/...the parlimentary rules of meetings , political diplomacy in the military, corporations or marraiges I participated in during my life. ( or anything else that delayed getting actual results quicker) .. I am too opinionated, impatient samrt and obviously humble for my own and other's good and I recognize that as my most significant weakness. Luckily, I can still count to 10 and recognise right from wrong. But what do you think about what "I actually posted instead of my going out of order ??? Life is what happens while we are making other plans.

least number of wingsuit jumps: 10-15 I'll assume that is just a joke ---right? Life is what happens while we are making other plans.

NO,... It would NOT COUNT in the suggestion I just posted above because there would be "no touch lines" encircling the sides and the rear of any pre-declared formation. And... NO it would NOT COUNT in the suggestion I just posted because the out of position flyers in the photo do not have their "bodiies" on the "should be touching" lines that would be connecting the body midpoints of the pre-declared flyers on any overlay (in the way that Uncle Charlie earlier suggested and I added to Matt's Tic Tac Toe "no touch lines" along with my suggestion that the Leader be placed at Dead Center in the front ... Life is what happens while we are making other plans.

Matt,... your Tic Tac Toe lines passing through the "midpoints" in the predeclared formation's empty spaces where "NO flyer should be" ,....along with lines that connect the midpoints of each flyer in the designated pre-declared formation representing where each flyer SHOUD BE,.. and then using those predeclared lines to jugde quickly and accurately whether each designated flyer touches his or her "should be there" lines and doesn't touch at all his or her adjacent "shouldn't be there" lines.// is a great approach and is what I think I remember Ed Uncle Charlie suggesting to the Italians in his earlier post in this forum thread. IT WOULD indeed be a very good way to judge any kind of formation because the lines do not have to be staight lines --- but only lines that are draw for whatever the "predeclared formation" is. However I still must once again insist ( for all the logics I previously have covered as per Aircraft formation flying) that for the most accurate actual vs intended results to be judged in this way (or any way),...the overlay to be prepared with the " should be touching" liones and the"no-touch" lines is placed over any potential photo with the "Flock Leader's' body midpoint "Dead Center" on where he or she is supposed to be in whatever is the predeclared formation.... ( like the photo of last year's 71 way formation you posted recently with the front diamond grid centered on Jeff) Once you do what you and Ed Uncle Charlie suggest (the touch and no touch lines )and what I suggest ( the "dead center leader" ),...there would be no controversy ever possible,..and no manipulation possible. ( such as "best fit" ) The Leader will always be where intended and the "each specific slot's designated flyer will either be on their "should touch line", ( or not ) and off their "no touch lines, (or not). These touch and no touch lines will form a grid/latticework/ for the specific predeclered formation. It is very flexible ...the lines can be curved or straight. One thing though ... "no touch lines" will nedd to be placed on the overlay around the sides and the rear of the overall formation ( so there can't be one or more flyers way back or way off at the sides of their assigned slots on the outer portions of the formation while still touching the lines that are connecting the midpoints of the flyers on that designated formation ) No one flyer anywhere in the formation could be touching those no touch lines around the formation. ( the first quick check on any photo) This would indeed be a very fast way to judge incoming photos .....and the beauty of the lines approach is that it is both "simple" and "uncontestable" . The "results' will always be symmetrical ( if intended to be) , beautiful ( if intended to be) ...and most importantly, the results will reflect the actual accomplishments of each flyer compared to their assigned intentions (ie their skill) and the actual accomplishment of the overall team compared to the intention to create the pre-declared formation. (ie combined skills) This is what a "record" of any kind really "should be" . I do not know how to draw such lines on my computer Matt,.. so I'll leave it to you and the computer literate to do so ... Matt,..I'm really glad to see you and others involved with the current grid, both seeing it's issues and at least trying to refine the record judging criteria to make it mean something "more accurate in it's results", something "unmanipulated to a desired result" and something "very special" as well as "not easily done" (as Zach, I and numerous others have commented or implied in forum and DZ comments.) Good luck in getting such refinements adopted...I fully recognise and credit Taya, Jeff , Phil and others for the efforts they initiated to get this ball rolling and for having wingsuiting be recognised for it's special skills set. ( I am more than willing to help advocate for improvemnets to the existing system such as you, Ed and I are suggesting, in fact, I've been doing that ever since last year but out of the glare of the forum until I saw others were interested in such ideas) "If" such a refined system is adopted worldwide and the judging criteria starts to truely mean something really skillful and special,..I will once again become enthusiastic about trying to qulaify to be a member of such a group attempt. ( big or smaller) ... Thanks again Matt, for your "top floor " photos and for your thoughts .... Life is what happens while we are making other plans.

Hey Scotty Thanks bro. Those are great shots and some really beautiful sunset/(and sillowettes) posted on your main site along with the formation building photos. You always seem somehow to get all around up there and shoot so many different angles... completely off the grid and free...and that sorta puts us observers behind your camera as if we are there. Since no one out there has time to look around at the awesome Elsinore coastal mountains and sky while they are focusing on flying their slots,...your positioning skills, angles and composition is giving all your flying buddies a gift of seeing and feeling the beauty of what they are accomplishing "later" ,...(something they just can't appreciate at the moment.... but will come to value highly as they look back through your photo efforts)... I miss hearing the laughs and energy I know is going on out there every day and the joy I've seen in you when you are happy doing what you love to do. So keep doing "your good" Freeeeeeeedom ! PS: Remember to remind all the jumpers out there that what you, Matt and the other photogs do,.. is a profession and art as well as fun ( much like really good pole dancing) ,..and that tips "are" appreciated ..... ( Nevermind,..I know you guys wouldn't do that,.... so I just did) Later,.... Life is what happens while we are making other plans.

really beautiful shots Matt,.... Looks like great weather out there so far. Thanks for centering the lead grid triangle on the flock leader,.. It really does make the photo look much more visually pleasing, symmetrical, and truely reflects the intentions and accomplisment of each flyer and the overall team... This year's group seems to be getting it close to perfect much quicker than last year,,,. I guess that's what they call evolution... Repetitive practice and experience leads to confidence and competence ! I believe this 74 way is "gonna be" ...and 'you' have the very best view of all the jumpers in "real time"! Life is what happens while we are making other plans.

First,..Thanks Matt, for posting 2009's 71 way photo with this year's grid and with the Base/"Leader"/Jeff's helmet positoned dead center in the middle of the lead diamond on the overall formation. Second, my best wishes for fun and another beautiful formation for 2010. Even though specific sized boxes, not scalable diamonds were the first attempt at a measuring grid year, (then changed to diamonds after the event),... this picture you have posted is the best, most visually pleasing combination of grid and photo I have yet seen. It truely reflects what was actually accomplished as compared to what was intended last year ( and was a very beautiful bigway) Your combination of grid and photo has at least a "visual feel (sense) of symmetry by having Jeff centered horizontally in the lead diamond (what would have been the lead box back then) But BURIED... I have to object to your suggestion in your response to Matt's combination photo/grid posting when you say that he "could just move the grid to the left and down a little" to get 3 or 4 people 'in' and also say that "nothing says it needs to be centered on the base/"leader" ............ My mind and eye rebel when I hear that and I recently addressed this one issue of th4 base/"leader" being centered on another winsuit forum thread about the record setting criteria being approved. ( I'm reposting part of that below but in essence what I'm saying is that moving the grid so that the formation leader is 'anywhere' except "dead center" in the "lead' triangle, box, circle, or whatever shape is being used in whatever kind of grid is used, is the major fundamental weakness I see in the "best fit" judging criteria I have been reading and watched being used since last year's post-Elsinore and approved by the USPA this past summer. It's especially bad to any sense of visual symmetry when the grid is moved left or right, but even when the grid is moved up and down to get as many people "in" as possible. (the " best fit" ) ,..there is ' no way ' I can understand to not say that doing so is anything other than the manipulation of outcome photos with the grid and when compared to the actual intentions of each individual flyer and the intended spacing of all the flyers ( the declared goal) of the overall formation. I don't understand why you can say otherwise ,..so please read my past posting here below and help me follow 'your' thought process. I understand that there is some group doing some additional refinement of the judging criteria and it is going on now ( probably at Elsinore) but I simply can't understand how not having the leader's body midpoint ( not his helmet- as with Matt's posted photo) placed dead center on the "leading grid diamond" Here's part of what I wrote a couple weeks back: ( and what I have thought ( and said to many) ever since last year's Elsinore grid was changed ( in the weeks after the event ) from boxes of a certain size to enlarged scalable diamonds and then moved around for the "best fit" (the 'everyone in' reverse-engineered desired result) : xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx from my earlier post on the other thread... This suggestion I am making "IS" a concept taken "from formation aircraft flying itself,... and utilized by The Thunderbirds, The Blue Angels, and every formation team of pilots I have seen and talked with... ( 3 of my demo pilot associates over the years were ex T-Birds and One was the team leader in 1964---and yes I know I am real old !) I was with this pilot in Vegas the day after the T-birds followed their "leader" into the ground because of this very fundamental rule of formation flying. AND My SUGGESTION IS YOU ASK???? It 'is' that the ''LEADER''( lead aircraft-pilot) is always POSITIONED and headed PERFECTLY and that everyone else is to try execute their very best with their skills to fly off the "leader's" wingtips and behind his tail in whatever position and at whatever distance off the leader's assumed perfect position they have been assigned to fly......All pilots following the leader fly off of him/her or by reference to other aircraft flying directly or indirectly off the leader's assumed to be perfect position in the intended formation. So ,....in placing ANY type of grid and grid shapes as an overlay on any photo of an overall formation, ... the "leader" ( "lead aircraft" /lead pilot is ( and always the most steady, stable, reliable pilot in terms of heading, horizontal and vertical speeds as well as constant situational awareness) MUST BE PLACED AND ASSUMMED TO BE IN THE " DEAD CENTER" of the VERY FRONT MOST AND CENTER BOX OR DIAMOND OF THAT GRID BEING USED..... The ""LEADER"" "is the one sole flyer" who is NOT following anything,.. but rather is BEING FOLLOWED by wingmen, stinger ( trail aircraft) and every other pilot in any formation and "the leader is the one pilot that is in no way flying by visual reference to his or her wingmen or any other flyers. The "leaders sole intent" is to fly "on heading, stable" at a predetermind speed to a predetermined spot over the ground" and their ongoing accomplishment of that intent HAS to be assumed to be perfect in any photo's momentary judgement of the following pilots or judgement of the entire overall formation. So,...ANY GRID should be placed not as "a BEST FIT" over a formation ---....BUT "only" with the leader's body in the photo put "DEAD CENTER" in the front and center box or diamond of whatever Grid is used. If the leader is flying a formation that has a straight front line,...or an angled line intent ,..the Grid can be declared to be angled to "best fit" all the flyers in that line,... BUT it should never move the "leader"'s body out of the Dead Center Position in the Center front box or center front diamond... ( or at most within a foot or so of Dead Center to allow for one brief moment of minor turbulence) The leader does not have to deal with any burbles ( except maybe Scotty passing below ---LOL ) and the leader sets- up within the first 15 seconds or so after leaving the aircraft on a best heading and pre-determined speed to take the formation to the opening point and to allow the formation to build behind them. Their resposibility is to remain stable and to only hold their heading and speeds to allow the followers to enter their specific slots .... Therefore, they should not in any way be moved inside any grid over their photo from left to right or forward or back in their box or diamond ... Essentially they really should have NO BOX space or diamond space AT ALL ---only a POINT in the dead center of the lead and or center Grid box, diamond, circle,.. or whatever is being attempted. Try this with the grid on the 71 way from last year's Elsinore ( Matt?), the recent Chicago record formation and the August Pepperrall record formation and you will see why I suggest this one improvement and also suggest and hope this one change be applied in Elsinore this year,.... You will easily see where I am coming from and why doing this one thing will materially contribute to make whatever size formation record results from such a concept of "always following the perfect leader" be MUCH MORE REFLECTIVE of what is actually intended in the mind of each of the flyers and what is actually being attempted by each of flyers. That being done the actual resulting "outcome" in terms of "we did it" or "we came close but didn't" as a team formation, will be more reflective of the actual execution skill in the accomplishment of each indivdual ,...but also the overall "team"...ie the collective skills of the flyers,...AND BE A MORE SPECIAL THING and "not easily repeated" ( the thoughts put forth by Zach ) It also will not be as easily played with OR QUESTIONED by the organizers and /or Judges who might naturally get caught up emotionally in the enthusiasm of any record attempting event ( to lean toward producing the desired outcome)...AND the outcome will always be based on the merit of the positions of both those flyers who can see the leader at all times during the flight....and how well those who can't see the leader can fly off those who can...... ISN"T THAT what the whole thing is about,..in addition to mainly being safe and having fun!? I was sorta sad to see what I knew were some of the very best positioned flyers ( ie the most skillful pilots) in last year's record attempt be made to look less skillful by cahnging and moving the grid around to accomplish the desired overall "everyone in" ..."we did it" result ... THAT wasn't fair to those "most skillful pilots looking at their implied performance on the grid overlying the photoreleased ,..and it isn't fair to everyone who was made to feel they did something they really didn't do as per the original stated intentions and the actual thing they were trying to accomplish on each jump. ( BUT I also agree that the whole thing WAS a record of sorts in that it was majestic, beautiful and "almost accomplished ----this year shoud be the year of no questions ---and I wish everyone that... I wish I could be there with you ) I have been away from all of you great flyers for awhile... But,.. I hope to be healed and back flying this winter down in Sebastian and to be trying to qualify for a Florida record out over the beach and for the world record attempt when it goes to 100 ( if not this year) ... Good luck out there. Rick,..you can fly 'for me" this year ,..OK my friend?...... Wish everyone a safe and fun time.... Enjoy !!! Stoney -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Life is what happens while we are making other plans. Life is what happens while we are making other plans.

awesome looking and probably better and easier to fly with the middle rows allowing for better cross referencing ( without those spread out trailing side wings from last year... I am a bit worried about the one guyup front flying backwards... but if that is Scotty Burns taking pictures,..I have absolutely no concerns.... Somehow he'll just 'do it' ....( although he won't know or be able to tell anyone "how"... ( and he can't burble anyone flying like that ) Good Flying (not "luck" to everyone there..you can do it ....but mostly ,..stay relaxed and have FUN!!!!!!!!!! Life is what happens while we are making other plans.

Kallend, It was Fast Ed's idea about the short range order you speak about.... My ( Stoney)'s idea of having the Leader in the Dead Center of any grid shape's front foremost box simply reflects what is the short and long term INTENTION of any pre-declared formation and therfore "most accurately" represents the "fact" that the leader is not keying his or her position off of anyone else in the sky,...so the leader can not be assumed to be flying in less than a perfect position (to begin the flow back of keying off him and others. The leader is suppossed to take a heading, set a fall rate/ horizontal speed and hold that until break-off. Moving the leader around in the lead box , diamond or whatever shape is used in whatever type of grid or lattice is used for judging the overall formation ( be it smaller or large ) is the very most obvious form of manipulation there can be in nattempted to get a best fit from any scalable grid. ( based on Lead aircraft -trail aircraft and wingman formation flying that has been conducted by Air forces throughout the world for the past 80 years or so. My ( Stoney's idea is a neccessary first step in avoidance of manipulation of judging a record,..BUT it does almost nothing for the weird out of position flying positions that could still occur by others behind the leader and yet qualify for record staus per the current USPA approved record criteria. Ed ( Uncle Charlie's lines passing through the midpoint of each flyer's intended position in any pre-declared formation and thorugh the center of the intended pre-declared open spaces and then requiring the assigned flyer to be at least touchuing the line they should be on and 'NO flyer' touching any line thay was pre-declared to be the mid point of any empty open spaces between flyers in the predeclared formation would create an even better looking formation on any formation that would qualify as a record using "Stoney's" Leader dead center and "his" lines connecting the midpoint of both flyers and open spacesideas . Still, there could be certain flyers and formations that even incorporating Stoney and Uncle Chalie's ideas "could" qulaify as records with flyers out of position ( it is much less probable -but I did drawing that show it can happen. That is where FAST-ED's idea of the 1, 2, 3, or more cicles that represent the desired and intended Range from each flyer comes in to better tighten the flying skill of each flyer doing what they are intended to do by keying off i, 2, 3 , or 4 other flyers ahead, to the sides ( if applicable) and across the formation ( if applicable) As I understood Ed's circles and then used them on the pictures from Chicago , the 71 way and the Peperral photos ( which I blew up on my computer screen and then used marker right on the screen) they insure that any formation that is declared a record will be something very close to what was pre- declared as the intended formartionhat and I even did one where the formation was a doble S side by side and that looked real nice as well as long as some part of the flyer was in the area if the intended range cicles created by their over-lap. I just got some PM's that this is all part of what I will be seeing soon on this site so I'm gonna back out and let those of you with more daily exposure to flying this stuff take all the ideas presented here and integrat them as you choose into whatever judging criteria you propose But Stoney's contribution will only be seeing the leader in any record attempt be in the dead center of the very first box, diamond, cicle, hexagon or whatever since that is what starts everone else exhibiting their flying skills and building a team accomplshment I'm looking forward to seeing what you all come up with and then perhaps becoming re-enthusiastic about being part of such an attempt when I get both good and light enough to again qualify for a record attempt. Maybe in Sebastian this winter? Thanks for putting up with my spelling and grammer errors ---when I try to do spell check on this site everyting I write "disappears" ?? ... Please don't write me now suggesting that I always use spell-check ... I get it .... I'm outta this... hmmmm what if we each carried crystals, closed our eyes and "let the force be with us" /! (Sorry --I couldn't resist) Life is what happens while we are making other plans.

Spot: In reading back over the past 20 or so postings on this thread and then using my idea of the Leader being placed Dead Center in the middle of the first forward grid shape of whatever kind,...then applying Uncle Charlie's lines idea,..and finally Ed's "in range of the keyed flyers idea, as well as Phil and my concrns on an accordian effect,... I really hope you do indeed see the brilliance of adding Ed's idea to mine and Uncle'Charlie's and did not make the above comment in a hasty somewhat sarcastic and teasing way..... Of course it is not unique to say that while we all know that flying our spacing and alignment off the only one , two, three ,and sometimes four or more flyers we can see "is" the only thing that we "can control" if we are somewhere in the formation where we can not see the leaders,.. placing circles of some size at the desired range from the flyer's that will be used by each flyer to key off others and ON the predeclared LINES OF CONNECTION that pass through the mid-point of each flyer in the formation ( straight /curved lines being ok) and shown on the pre-drawn pre declared formation 'REALLY DOES' take away any possibility of the weird and ugly formations techniquely qualifying for record status... As I said earlier ,..this does not change "anything" about how all the flyers this year have been flying to prepare for the World record 100 way that will soon be attempted,...... But ,...in the final photographs that are deemed to be the closest to what the desired predeclared formation should look like and in conjunction with the grid, my leader as 'dead center' in the leading grid box or diamond and lines and Charlie's lines of connection,...ED's idea of a FINAL requirement that each flyer have some part of his body in the circles of range off those flyers who are the only flers he or she can possibly use to fly thier position would be a Final and wonderful addition to the record requiremant that would insure that each formation has a vey close resemblance to the intended formation... THAT is not at all so using just the grid method ,....OR using the grid method with just my "leader at dead center" in the lead grid ,..OR even using UncleCharlie's lines of connection idea,... BECAUSE while each of thos ideas makes the probability of a better looking result,...ther still remains the possibility of one, two , three or 30 or 40 of the flyers being "well off '' their desired flying positions and yet still be touching the scalable grid lines as they exist as of now in the record criteria... Ed's 2/3 or 4 circles of range draw off of each closest flyer ahead( If appplicable),.to the right If applicable) and to the Left ( if applicable) and across the formation to the right or left if such other flyer can be seen ,....would INSURE a beautiful formation with no or very little opening for anyone to question the overall skill of each flyer and the overall team effort... I did 12 drawings off different pictures to assure my self of this outcome and I have to say ED....."way to go" ! ! When combined with lines of connection and the leader in deadcenter of the front grid shape,..your idea some part of each flyer being both on the lines of connection ( Charlies' suggestion ) and inside the part of any cirlces that overlap from each of the flyers would be keying off of in judging their position ( the best anyone could expect aside from perfection) really "is" a unique and brillent idea... Spot,...Phil, Taz, Jeff,...Justin, Uncle Charlie,...McCordia ( and your secret group project?, Andrea, Kelland, Yurri, ....... do the drawings and see what comes of it... In Elsinore this year it would be best to just use the existing grid ( with the leader in dead center) and at least with Uncle Charlie's requiement that each jumper touch some part of the lines of connection pre-drawn through midpoints of the grids where a flyer is suppossed to be in the formation and not touch any line drawn through the midpoint of the pre-ddrawn intended empty spaces........That and the skills of the flyers going to Elsinore should make for a fast,..on the DZ after each flight way of judging whether the formation is a USPA national record for this year ,..... and THEN cross-checked later or at night against ED's "in range circle criteria" to see if it can also be a record using his appraoch to assuring that it is also a very-good looking formation..... If so ( and pending hearing more ideas and McCordia's secret project group idea,... this new more rigid record criteria might better serve wingsuiting in an application for international record criteria. Spot,...Phil, Zach, Taz, Jeff, Scotty, Matt, Justin, Lurch,..Uncle Charlie,...McCordia ( and your secret group project?) , Andrea, Kelland, Yurri, ....... do the drawings and see what you see then post your please post your thoughts........ Again Ed,..."nice" Life is what happens while we are making other plans.

Yea,..I understand Ed,..and a great refinement However I still think that each flyer should "also" be touching the lines draw through the ideal positions of where the Declared Formation's flyer's are expected to be...( as Uncle Charlie suggested) In the photo you posted, the far right individual flyer appears to be just outside where he or she would be touching those lines as suggested by Uncle Charlie and sure enough,..that is the one place in the formation where my eye and most eyes would be drawn to with the thought that "something is a bit wrong here" that effects the overall formations symmetry .. It is "close" to damn near perfect symmetry except for that point and as you mentioned it would grow as the number's grew. That is why this "big" formation record stuff has to be considered a "true TEAM effort and accomplishment " Each flyer's position impacts all the other positions keying off them. It is NOT that one flyer on the right side of the photos flying alone that is causing him to be just off and outside from touching the lines that would have been draw for this formation. The flyer's flying that is the sole reason for his not touching the line,..but rather the cumulative effect of those flying the right forward line.... The same was and would be true using these combined leader at dead center, Charlies lines and your in range circles.on last year's Elsinore 71. The combined flying on the left leading edge of that photo obviously stretched that left side aircraft's flyers out compared to the right side as each left side flyer keyed off the flyer ahead of them who was aalso a bit too far back from the ideal lines of position. THAT is one point I want to stress... THIS approach to judging should never focus on just one flyer being off the line or out of range without looking at the positions of those other flyers off of which each flyer is guaging his or her distance... At the flying levels of the current wingsuiters trying these formations it will usually be a team ( multiple person spacing problem not just any one individual ... I like all this input and it all makes sense.... I hope the powers to be are reading and considering these ideas.... Well done Ed Charlie ( and me)... Come on Andre,....I just know that special relationship logical solution solving oriented mind is running multiple scenarios ove some wine at home.... Let's hear your thoughts ... And what about the photographers,...... Matt Scotty Craig ? ---any of this look good to you guys? Life is what happens while we are making other plans.

Ed,..I'm so glad I could help stimulate some thinking and yes Ed ,...I sorta see where you are going...with the leader at dead center in the front and each person within a certain range of the one two or three people they are flying off BUT not toooooo close. We had the same rule flying formation aircraft ... "get in close but no closer than 10 to 20 ft. off a wingtip .... My only thought is what if one side of the formation has each flyer's a bit farther away from their flyer or flyers being keyed off ,..then the one behind them is back a bit more and the same for the next ....It might start to stretch one side of the formation bak farther ( Your picture is kinda starting that on the right side and the 71 way photo shows that on the left side . Still,..it IS a further improvement and refinement over just being on the lines as Uncle Charlie was suggesting... Each idea,...My leader dead center, Uncle's lines and your "in range circles makes the overlay more refined and therefor requires more skill to be in the correct position and I like that. What is this """ project '''' being worked on? Nevermind ,..I'll see it when I see it,..but hearing about that kind of ecret project going on without siliciting thoughts from other flyers "is" what causes other wingsuiters to hang back and not offer their potentially great ideas or not offer their critiques ( not a big problem on this forum)- like Andre was saying in one of her well thought out posts... I bet the final criteria in two or three years will be incredibly simple and the only way to get the kind of chaos formations that have been posted on this forum that would be a technically qualified record but totally ugly record would be for some rebel group to go up with that very intention to create "A Qualified Random Chaos Record"( and that might require even greater skills to pull off,.. so it could be fun to see done) Life is what happens while we are making other plans.

Uncle Stoney says Skyla is beauitiful in her awesome new suit.! ... Oh,. uh.. and Scotty,....keep all the car and truck windows closed,... do not let her ride in the Pick-up bed or wear that on the back of your cycle ,...and please do not let her talk you into teaching her to climb .... ( you'll be taking grips with her sooner than it might now seem -and oh lord,..she's got daddy's genes! good luck when she hits 12 or 13) Skyla needs simulated airborne daddy daughter play time ... Get her a hanging harness. googles a frap hat, and hand cam ,...then hang her in front of one of those big hanger fans for fun and training ...... Can't wait to see those photos... Life is what happens while we are making other plans.

My suggestion and Uncle Charlie's would not change in any way the spacing everyone has been practicing all year Spot,... it is only a higher quality way of judging the eventual photos to determine the actual outcome... The leader stable and dead center ahead is what we have always flown and the lines Charlie suggests can be draw through most of the formations I have already seen ( with only a few fllyer exceptions on last year's 71 way over on the left side) It's no big deal but it makes a much more visually pleasing result . Kallends one side formations examples above do show that not all formations have to have a DECLARED and illustrated central spine ( or axis ) but THAT desire and intent to attempt an NON-symetrial formatioon CAN BE DECLARED in advance and "the leader" designated. So the line through the flyers Uncle Charlie suggests and my wingsuit span minimum distance from a flyer who is NOT suppossed to be (and Declared in advance to attempt to be closer ) WOULD also still apply . Remember that the lines do not HAVE TO BE DECLARED TO BE STRAIGHT LINES .. They can be declared to be curved like a weed whacker or even an S but it wiould be have to be shown on the DE CLARED IN ADVANCED DRAWING prior to attempting the formation. Larger formations do usually tend to try to be symetrical but INTENDING to do a DECLARED NON symetrical formation would be fine. ... and would exempt that formation but would not exempt the flyers from being touched by the predetermined lines in the positions they are tergeting and are drawn on whatever kind of grid illustration is going to be overlaid on the photo... You-all do whatever you as a group want this year ,...but it's not changing the spacing or the flying that I was suggesting or Uncle Charlie is suggesting.. It is simply using and explaining the use of the scalable grid in a way that more accurately reflects the desired position of the the leader and all the flyers...--- I would be happy to just see the leader in the dead center position based on the logic I presented in my prior post....but the lines through the flyers Uncle Charlie suggested wouild also be a better way to present a more beatiful final outcome... and less subject to questions of manipulation of a photo rather than individual skills and overall team accoplisment . And yes spot ,..you all the great flyers who want to try this record HAVE been practicing for another year and most were in the big way 71's and the 73 formation (for Rick) I got to see from the back middle last year. So,...some fine tuning in the grid measuring process along with the "scalable grid should be a piece of cake after a year's practice and not really be a big deal... I have seen almost all the flyers listed for Elsinore flying last year in Elsinore and AND THEY ARE AS A GROUP VERY CAPABLE of doing a formation that would be judged as Uncle Charlie and I am suggesting,...but that is not my call.....(Andre and Brian can do it too!) I am just trying to make the whole record thing more special, more accurate relative to skill in accomplisnment and therfor more meanigful to each participant while making a case for something that is less open to apparent "manipulation for outcome" .... OR you can just go for a big formation,..have fun, take photos and don't use any type of measurement of the results ,..JUST HAVE A GOOD TIME let the photos and videos that result speak for themselves ... It would " still be fantastic" ( and would be much less pressured!) the best to all out there.... Life is what happens while we are making other plans.