WGore

That Fatality was at one of the boogies and out of a D-18 Beech. The jumper was wearing conventional gear and had a premature deployment of the main. The main went over the horizontal stabilizer and the reserve fired when he hit and went under the stabilizer. The main lift web broke on one side and the connector link severed the reserve riser on the other side releasing the canopy. The main streamered because of a broken riser IIRC. Death was caused by a ruptured aorta according to the Medical Examiner, and was almost immediate. The horizontal was only held on by the last spar which anchored the elevator. The pilot who was pretty new at flying D-18s recovered the aircraft from a spin at around 6000ft, at which time the rest of the load exited.. I beleive the year was 77' but wouldn't swear to it without checking my log books. GUNFIRE, The sound of Freedom!

I still think that the sugar in the fuel was a ploy to shake some info from local skydivers that lost good friends in the crash. I don't think that the NTSB would have failed to mention a small fact like that. And it's not like the news media doesn't go with sensationalism right or not. They can always make retractions on page 105 of the next edition if necessary. Williams wasn't hard to find if revenge was the order of the day. Why take a chance on that method not working when a bullet would be certain and final. Thornton was caught bringing a plane full of drugs into CA. While he was out on bail awaiting trial he was shot exiting a Lexington restaurant. Drew NEVER went out without a kevlar vest and everyone knew it. The shooter hit him in the chest from less than 10 ft not the head. The theory was to remind him not to roll over on his friends. He didn't and did 6 months or so in the Federal Country Club because it was a first offense. Also he was not disbarred by the KY Bar Asso. When I asked him about that all he said was the fix was in. BTW when he started jumping he was a Lexington PD Narcotics officer. I guess it was more profitable to work both sides of the street. There is a book called The Bluegrass Mafia, which I haven't read, but his name comes up in there as a player. I'm not so sure that there was ever a Columbian connection other than the coke coming from there. As far as I know DEA never came up with anything else in this case. Charges were filed against his GF but were dismissed by a Federal Judge. I don't think that she knew anything useful. Drew didn't trust anybody very much. GUNFIRE, The sound of Freedom!

Nick, Drew was found in a driveway in Knoxville, not FL. The airplane that they were flying was a 402. That airplane is notorious for horizontal sabilizer strikes when used for skydiving. My take on the whole incident was that the auto pilot was set to fly east and then Drew headed to the back of the aircraft. The shift in weight put the plane in a tail down attitude and when Thornton exited he was struck by the horizontal stabilizer. The cause of death was that his aorta was ripped from his heart. Apparently he was consious just long enough to pull his reserve. He was found with the reserve laying next to his body but the deployment brakes hadn't been released. The aircraft was found near the top of a mountain in the Smokies by a couple coon hunters who supposedly heard it hit. There was no one in the aircraft and it was traced back to a phony corp that bought it and never transferred the title. I don't remember where I heard this and it is not gospel but the key to the rear door was supposedly in Thornton's pocket. I think that DEA was looking pretty close at Dave Williams but the Caravan crash sort of took care of that problem. DEA might have been resonsible for the rumors about sabotage to try and shake loose some info. That crash took out most of the best jumpers along with the DZO and Cowboy from that DZ. GUNFIRE, The sound of Freedom!

Well they are selling skydiving training that suits their way of doing things or their staff. I know it's not much help but that's the way it is. Opinions on best methods are like you know what and we all have one. I started in Nov way back in the day and when I had about 10 jumps we had 13 straight bad weekends. I learned a lot sitting in a bar listening to war stories. Not the ideal method but I did take knowledge away from it. GUNFIRE, The sound of Freedom!

C-208 Jekinsburg Ga, sugar in the tanks, tells me lack of a preflight mixed with a hot TO, not sure on the hot TO. Just curious about the sugar, I didn't see that in the NTSB report on Skydiver Drivers site. If the plane was refueled after the preflight that could account for the water and other contraminants. From what I understand the fuel filter was clogged and the AC was operated on the bypass which allowed the water and crud to get to the engine. The fact remains that the pilot was green and instead of trying to land in the field he crashed in he tried to make it back to the airport resulting in the stall that killed all on board. I didn't see the crash site but from a friend that was one of the first to get there the field was plenty big to land in. GUNFIRE, The sound of Freedom!

If winds are a problem it doesn't make any difference which program you are pursuing there is a safety limit. If you have the money to pursue AFF you will get to a certain level quicker. If you aren't well heeled the SL or IAD will keep you jumping more regularly, which is the key to advancing. As a student the more back to back jumps you make, the more comfortable and competent you will be. GUNFIRE, The sound of Freedom!

Agree with all of that, but would add that, at least in my opinion, skydiving planes are usually older and have a higher probability of not being maintained properly. Although I could be very wrong on both of those points; especially the second. Any aviation enthusiasts care to weigh in on that? Depends on your DZO. Because the plane is old doesn't mean that it is poorly maintained. Annual and 100 hour inspections are required by law which should catch airworthiness issues. The A&P is putting his certificate on the line if he is pencill whipping the inspections. Not to mention the possible litigation in the event of an accident. Another factor is using inexperienced pilots. Flying skydivers is one way to build time for many pilots. The DZ that I used to fly for wouldn't use anything but skydiving pilots. The theory being that you could count on them to be there and they had a little bit of a clue what was going on. In short they were involved and in most cases they helped with maintenence as well when possible. In 38 years and several engine failures and minor incidents we never lost an airplane or injured anyone. Almost all of the problems fall under the old addage of stuff happens. Old airplanes do require constant vigilance though. The new DZ that I fly for now takes care of pilot bitches immediately. With out a doubt a good policy especially when my ass is in it. GUNFIRE, The sound of Freedom!

I've been in the sport for nearly 43 years and have lost more friends in plane crashes than skydiving accidents. Some of them not skydiving related. The loss of life in some of those was needless, PILOT ERROR. One was from hot dogging and another was a combination of poor maintenance and green pilot. Those 2 crashes alone took out 22 people that should be alive today. Unfortunately both aircraft never got high enough for a parachute to open even if they could have gotten out. An engine failure on takeoff is probably the worst thing that can happen and the most likely thing to kill you. At altitude there might be a chance although not always as evident from some of the problems with big aircraft and severe CG problems. My heart goes out to the family and friends of those affected. It leaves a big hole in the DZs affected, I know only to well. GUNFIRE, The sound of Freedom!

I'd have to check my log book for one of the guys. He told me that had it not been for a boat picking him up almost immediately after hitting the water he would have been gone as well. Three guys from my DZ were up there and got on the plane but it was overloaded so they made them get off. They waited for the jumpers to land and the plane to come back but never happened so they headed back to Cincinnati. On the way home they heard what happened. I would have been there as well except for a pryor commitment to Uncle Sugar at the time. Lucky guys. Bob GUNFIRE, The sound of Freedom!

Hi BS25 Have we got a deal for you

You didn't have much choice. Of course most of us were still bullet proof back then. That is also the reason that many folks didn't stay with the sport. Square parachutes sure made it a lot easier and significantly dropped the injury rate. GUNFIRE, The sound of Freedom!

Not if you are a newbe! GUNFIRE, The sound of Freedom!

Didn't look like they were even down wind. My knees remind me of those days every morning. A couple of those smoke landings looked like true crash & burn landings. GUNFIRE, The sound of Freedom!

That would make for a snappy opening. Sure wouldn't want much speed there. GUNFIRE, The sound of Freedom!

What was the pilot thinking he could have bent his airplane Or did he/she They were jumping C-47s and my guess is that they didn't have radar altimeters. When your that low 50ft can make a difference. GUNFIRE, The sound of Freedom!

Yea, but most of them were just doing it for the pay and health insurance benefits. Sparky Had a friend in the RLI and he said that a guy he knew made 4 combat jumps in a single day doing the ambush thing. Most airborne don't make 4 combat jumps in a career. He also said that they had a couple fatalities from the rising DZ and the last couple guys in the stick impacted before line stretch. Like you said a hell of a way to make a living. But life is so much better under Robert Mugabe, NOT!!!!! GUNFIRE, The sound of Freedom!

>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>. Remember that LeMoigne was primarily interested in towed canopies ala. Para-Sail. Americans at Pioneer and GQ Security perfected PDA for freefall deployment. I have also repacked a few ejection seat parachutes that included PDA to speed inflation at low altitudes and low airspeeds. What the PDA does is to leave the suspension lines slack during deployment, so the air can spread the canopy quicker. In a standard design, the weight on the suspension lines tends to hold the canopy closed while stretched between the weight and the pilot chute. It is possible to short line a canopy so much that it won't open at all. Had a friend that proved it on a Pioneer Russian PC. A number of years ago I modified a round reserve with a PDA for BASE jumping and we tested it at 100ft and got reliable openings with Oscar (our drop dummy). It was used at 217ft by the owner off of a bridge. GUNFIRE, The sound of Freedom!

Yep, I can live being passed considering the gas mileage with the 4 banger. I don't know as the 4 bangers are that much better, my F-250 Power Stroke gets 2 miles better than my old Nissan 2.4L. Several years ago I was coming across the Pan Handle of TX and was fighting a VERY stiff head wind and never got out of 3rd gear for several hundred miles. The mileage was literally cut in half. When I could I would try to draft an 18 wheeler, but sometimes just couldn't keep up. I guided hunters in NM and the Nissan was great for getting around in the mountains but sucked for getting to and from sometimes. GUNFIRE, The sound of Freedom!

The altitude is pretty tough on those 4 bangers. They do ok on the flats but you won't be able to keep up with traffic on the hills, especially with the higher speed limits. Head winds can also present a problem. If you are going to be running around off road it will be fine. GUNFIRE, The sound of Freedom!

I used to run a DZ in a dry county, PBR was all the bootlegger carried. After a long hot summer day it tasted pretty good. GUNFIRE, The sound of Freedom!

Smallest 4'10 maybe 100lbs. Worst ride 6'4 (I'm 5'8) and 145lbs in the dead cockroach position. We didn't know about side spins then, but it was a perfect senario, lucky I guess. GUNFIRE, The sound of Freedom!

An interesting option that a DZO I knew once took was to demand a bond from a habitual low puller. If he pulled low then he had to forfit the bond and post another before he could jump again. It worked rather well at his DZ. The guy was well liked like your skygod. The DZO got to keep the bond when the guy smoked it down to 700ft at another DZ on a bet. Malfuntion and not enough alttitude to deal with it. The problem is that this guy might take out an innocent in the process. If the S&TAs won't do anything about it maybe you should save yourself. I am familiar with the system in SA since I jumped down there a number of years ago. The DZ that I jumped at was directly responsible for 2 fatalities in less than a year. One of them after I had warned the DZO that he had a problem. I took my business elsewhere after that. GUNFIRE, The sound of Freedom!

With that philosophy, the FAA could do away with flight training altogether and simply license pilots who pass the written test. With some of the pilots that I have seen over the years, I thought that they might have already done that. Several pilots that I have dealt with were great technical pilots and knew the regs backwards and forward. But put them behind a yoke and they were severely lacking. And something that you can't teach is to have an attitude were you are thinking ahead of what's going on right now. Our DZO takes really good care of the airplanes, but that is no guarantee that something isn't going to happen that is unforseen. GUNFIRE, The sound of Freedom!

As is typical of FARs, many of them contradict another regulation, depending on what you are doing. Even if you intend to get out of the airplane there is always the possibility that you will land with it. What goes up is deffinately going to come down. The seat is important in one case but not the next? Don't get me wrong I'm not disputing the intent of the law just the common sense of it. If the jumpers are geared up and they make a circuit and then take off again and climb to altitude, you could make a case for the law being complied with. At the DZ that I fly at, we could find enough staff to do such training and usually do. But we are operating single engine aircraft, so not a big deal. The other thing we do is start new jump pilots out with lighter loads till they get comfortable with the aircraft. All of our pilots are very experienced jumpers or they don't fly for us, (no time builders). Typically they will have 10 to 12 hours with an experienced jump pilot before they see a skydiver and they will get a dead stick landing during that training. GUNFIRE, The sound of Freedom!

David, Did you ever get to jump the DGA-15 Howard that Greene County, Xenia had with the 650HP P&W? That was one fast climbing bird. It would compare with any turbine to 12000ft. Pretty crowded though. I think they were putting 8 in it. I only got to jump it a couple times before they crashed it. Last time was Christmas day 66 and it was -31 @ 16500 and no door. There were several early stage frost bite cases out of that. I was home on leave and really wanted a jump. That was the last time I did that during the winter. GUNFIRE, The sound of Freedom!