ChrisD

It does sound a bit crappy,... WE still want, in the event of an accidential pin bump, in the plane, to be able to remove the main to a safe condition, seat belt in the student, and ride the plane down with them. C But what do I know, "I only have one tandem jump."

Let me get this straight?....You want to put 4 adults into an 182 at a high elevation??? And do this on a regular basis? You really want me to even consider replying with a straight face??? Just let it go... C But what do I know, "I only have one tandem jump."

I'm stareing at picture #2 and I'm a little confused, Don't we "complete the sequence," in a horseshoe by releasing the PC? As our first step? And I get the point you guys are trying to make, esp about the UPT Reserve PC, but I have yet to see any PC pointing downward?? (Ya I have seen burbiling PC's, but never pointing downward?) Someone help me out here? C But what do I know, "I only have one tandem jump."

This? http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9Bv_NqiT7pM The Collins lanyard is seperated from the RSL lanyard at the top by about 6 inches, near the top of the riser cover area, under the reserve risers. While I'll generally concede that the skyhook and RSL lanyards/ reserve pin can be pulled in such a disaster as this vid shows. The Collins lanyard would be near impossible to grab and in fact being anchored so to speak by the main right riser wouldn't release the right main riser in any situation except if the RSL was in place and disconnected!!!! Dear skydiverek (Barteck (Spelling),)? Anyways this vid needs its own thread/post. Two perspectives,...first: what do I tell a student after he/she see's this??? Second: that is a fucking totally awsome piece of shit in the air!!!!! I ONLY HOPE I COULD RESPOND AS WELL AS THEY DID UNDER THE SAME CIRCUMSTANCES. This illustrates perfectly what a small kink in the chain of events...does down the road....CAN ANYONE SAY: "PASS THE DUCT TAPE???" Or perhaps we should outfit all exit doors with fish hooks, just to make things more interesting??? C But what do I know, "I only have one tandem jump."

Firstly I would ask that you look at this most recent similar thread and topic :http://www.dropzone.com/cgi-bin/forum/gforum.cgi?post=4400441;page=unread#unread "Full Fitting," if you care to do a search. My point being choose your (Gucci) container wisely young grasshopper! Know why you do the things you do. I upsized my container because of the advice I got here on this Forum, because of the lack of hard info from some of the manufacturers! Now in their defence...John LeBlanc told me to choose the size of your reserve FIRST WITHOUT ANY CONSIDERATION OF CONTAINER SIZE. "Factors to consider,...what are you comfortable with,...remember you may not be in the best of moods,..or condition,...do you really want to jump the smallest canopy in your life when you may be compromised,...you could be unconscious!!!,...." Every other manufacturer in Deland said the same to me! (In their defence, Including Nancy, Bill, Mark, Mike, Tara, and a whole bunch more!) YA I WANTED TO LOOK COOL, TOO. But I bit the bullet and purchased larger! What UPT calls "Standard" size container as compared with what they call "Full Fitting." (I love my Racer as well, John.) However during this process, I was looking at the charts, and based upon the charts, I simply looked only at the suggested sizes,...if the manf. say's it fits, then it fits? Right? Wrong. The manufacturers of this equipment don't have any control over what the customers stick in them, they do the best they can. I suspect this is why so many of them won't or are, perhaps, unable to post the sensible and long overdue "Extraction Forces," required to ensure our safety. Mr. John Sherman has personally undertaken, with limited success, to do the best he can to illustrate this often neglected aspect of what should be common sense. See This link, or do a search for "Extraction Forces Check." Or visit P.L.,Inc., site : http://www.jumpshack.com/default.asp?CategoryID=TECH&PageID=18pounds&SortBy=DATE_D Thanks to JS for this!! No-one wants to see a fatal caused by a "container Lock," (I just made that up) anyways lot's to think about here,...what is your riggers responsibility in all of this? What is the manuf. responsibility? Peersonally I blame the whole industry for this insane downsizing trend...Yes I recognize the rights of an individual to do as he pleases,...BUT AT THE SAME TIME recognize What brian G says when he says: Your rights end, where someone elses begin,... I will support, by purchasing, and only reccommend for the rest of my life, the first manufactrer who refuses to make containers where the reserve is by design one size smaller than the main! I will do the same to the first manf. that stops this insane downsizing trend by refusing to manufacture containes without checking the wing loading of who they sell their equipment to. Untill then it is the individual responsibility of all of us to know what forces are required to extract every component of the equipment that we all count on to save our hides!!! Just my 2 cents for today... C But what do I know, "I only have one tandem jump."

BOTH. But what do I know, "I only have one tandem jump."

This? http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9Bv_NqiT7pM I really think the message here with this vid is we need to focus on proper exit procedure...and it's a miracle that the canopy slid off the tail as it did! C But what do I know, "I only have one tandem jump."

No, you raise a very good point...Yes the RSL on the VIII are fully velcroed in and under the reserve risers..but neverless it is a more complex system! Thanks for the nightmares :) But what do I know, "I only have one tandem jump."

Holy Shit!!! you catch a skyhook rsl and it disables your main and deploys the reserve...you have just given me permenant nightmares.... Complete the sequence, complete the sequence, complete the sequence,... thanks??? But what do I know, "I only have one tandem jump."

"""But, if you have a store/loft on your DZ, it's a good idea to support it. It may cost a little bit more, but keeping them going is going to cost you less in the long run. There are exceptions to this of course. But I'd give my local store a chance to price match if I was making a major purchase (new rig or similar)."""" True'r words never spoken. In fact many local Gear Store's support their local DZO's. In fact I know of at least a handfull of gear stores that if they go under the attached DZ will close! Currently General Aviation Airports are under attack, and quite frankly skydiving as a whole ISN'T HELPING. We need to support GA and via vi we need to support our local gear stores. This consideration, in the long run, might be way more of a factor than saving a few bucks!!! C But what do I know, "I only have one tandem jump."

THANKS! But what do I know, "I only have one tandem jump."

I made it up!

Ok, I have to ask exactly what do you mean with the last comment? How can failure of the skyhook, and please be explicit, cause an issue with a fully functioning main? C But what do I know, "I only have one tandem jump."

No need for a PM, I am right here. To protect yourself from a too tight reserve and an insufficient pilot chute don't buy from any manufacturer who won't tell you what the "Maximinum allowablw Extraction force of the reserve bag from the container is" and what the "Effective Sq. Footage of the reserve pilot chute is. These two may be matched and tested by a compentant rigger to assure a prompt reserve deployment and keep him from crusing at you. I love John Sherman,... and this is good advice for any rig, from any manufacturer. This is also great advice for testing our stow loops and main pin extraction forces!!! Perhaps more DZO's can put those little fish type scales to test this and make this part of a regular quick inspection? Will people with licenses take the time to do this? We have all seen our brother's and sister's jam something horrendusly oversized into their containeres and just as many are unable to adjust their own closing loops thus generating ridicliously high opening forces!!! C Dear Mr Sherman, it's time to post the stuck freebag vid again...

This is the safety and Training section, right??? I understand how you feel about that. I realized about a day after I started the thread that people might focus on the "comments on demo jumper hits spectators" thinking that we moved that discussion from the Incidents forum. What I would have liked to see was people discussing the possibility of teaching people how to "stop short". We got some of that. Anyone want to keep going? (By the way, no one responded to my example. How would you keep from hitting the child?) I believe the question was: "Full Stop." This whole thread really begs the question of Drill! And by drill I mean going back to: "The Landing Pattern." 1000' enter the "Landing Pattern," turn at 600, 300 etc, etc.. And a "Zero" is a modern canopy which can be flown vertically at about 3/4 brakes, or so I have been told, and if everyone was driving a Zero this post wouldn't exist.

Excellent point's,... But I'm reading the originals post to literally "Stop Short." I'm being real hard line on this one because of the numerous questions that well intention'ed but neverless well meaning individuals have created for students...based upon the number of times I have been asked exactly this same question...by students. C (This is really a topic where we need to define our audience, perhaps...as an example>>> The following discussion is meant for students only, ...as compared with >>> The following discussion is meant for highly experienced canopy pilots that want to learn to crash at the last min.)

"""I am getting new gear, but would prefer the reserve to be a bit bigger than the main. From the manufacturer, they say the bigger reserve will fit, but fairly tight fit.""" Then why consider a container that is too small??? C But what do I know, "I only have one tandem jump."

O'k I get it now, good point you make, it would be better than great to be able to stop short...The Demo jumper thing...The Demo jumper should know better, etc,. I have not flared on more than one occasion, no plf, no flare, etc,. It requires a certian amount of practice and such to drive your heels into the ground without tumbling face first, end over end... I have often thought a series of last min quick turns might do it, but I have'nt found the courage to do it yet! Not the kind of turns I would even attempt to even mention to a student. Turns on the verge of a stall, but still with some speed for a quick pull up at the end,...Sliding in is problamatic in that it takes away time of teaching and practicing a plf. And from personal experience and being present at more than a few hard hits your tailbone is not as strong as many people think it is, never mind the intentional risk you face when you expose your spine to the forces that can do some permanent damage, by advocating sliding in. Brian G. gives more than a few pointers on this subject in his talks and vids, and books but his perspective is primarily saving your butt and keeping the canopy ovehead! My understanding and the boy's at Flight one/ Brian G advocate a quick pump on the brakes...but in the context of saving a botched high speed hit. You may want to speak with them...I recently spoke with the most excellent instructors at SDU and other than getting large...extend arms, feet, if your a guy...everything to increase drag...Physics rule and your not going to stop short no matter what you do...It was the fine people at SDU that advocate, for the experienced jumper, to carry a little constant brake for the unplanned short stop. The theory being fly fast and end up short. The opposite so to speak of the long spot. Your question also has framed the situation that you are travelling at a high forward speed,...the antithisis of what every accuracy jumper is trying to do...when they make steep, high brake approaches. So everyone go get a Zero, or a ParaFoil, this might be your answer and all of this is covered in detail with a pro-rating??? Look, I'm trying to not be too sarcastic, and I most wholeheartedly await an answere if one exsists, perhaps there is some yet untried technique that awaits discovery but untill then what your advocating results in someone getting hurt, or at least increasing the risk of injury. The way you have framed the question also implies that somewhere prior to this last second stop...there has been an judgment in error,...we need to spend our time there rather than spending time trying to save a bad situation. C I was reading "The Ranch's" web site a few weeks ago and on their site they like to play what if games for discussion. One of the what if's was how to behave in a cloud,...they set up the question to preclude the obvious answer: DON'T JUMP INTO A CLOUD, (we call this "framing" in psychology) you can see how now you must play a what if situation and answere in a certian way. The only way to get any meaning out of this hypothetical situation is to not play the game... So Yes I would love to be able to find some way to stop short, but on the other hand this discussion takes away from what currently works. I cannot support teaching a sliding stop because it takes away and competes with a plf and proper preparation. Where are this kid's parents anyways??? As you have framed your question, I would simply make a small turn and avoid hitting the kid as there is just enough room to either side of the child. Or I woould simply spread my legs, like Father Geogean and pass over the child and hope that somehow this photo op ends up on Utube. The accuracy guys have been intensly thinking exactly this question since the 60s' and they would, as I, love an answere. C But what do I know, "I only have one tandem jump."

This is an UNDERSTATMENT spend 20 min in any tunnell, well perhaps not the one in las vegas, but anyways 20 min and you will have your answere. Your lips and upper cheecks, no not your ass, your cheeks on your face VIBRATE. Broken blood vesseles etc. Although I see many tunnel rats using protec's,... I see far more with purple skplotches on their faces... There also may be some room for debate here as well,...two incidents that may be helmet related in 2012, both well publicized and very sad...on the other hand lot's of collisions where helmets have proved there worth, at least certianly for those involved in those same collisions...As for Goggles,...they sometimes come off and I personally find this very annoying, never mind the red eye... C But what do I know, "I only have one tandem jump."

Dude you obviously know which way the pointy end faces! And you know how to get the sewing machine started, dosen't look like hand stitching to me! You rock! It's just that no one wants to see you end up like: Pilâtre de Rozier and Pierre Romain. And I suspect more than a few, including me...wish we were as determined/ or as adventerous as you... C But what do I know, "I only have one tandem jump."

I don't know the jumpers, just had the link posted on a facebook group. Dude, your awsome, it's a retorical reply, kind of a pun... But the underlying point is scareeey...THE PROLIFERATION of shit hanging off your body to get a picture when it is so fuc#$%ing easy to streamline stuff, this whole subject is insane!!!!! That Dude could have been killed!!! Trust me it dosen't take much!!! EXCELLENT vid of an ALLMOST!!! I got ten bucks nobody learns shit from this one... I'd like to be wrong??? C But what do I know, "I only have one tandem jump."

I try to listen intently to the students because: No question on the ground is stupid, it promotes discussion and in-fact this discussion promotes safety. I also listen because this tells me a little about their training, who taught them so to speak... Some discussions have a basis in fact, and many discussions are unintentional misquotes or misunderstandings... Some of the way things are, are because of hard decisions,...The simple facts are we have a bunch of cutaway pulls ridden down to the ground,...and these are well documented! We do not have a pile of RSL incidents, that are well documented. There simply isn't a lot of individuals walking around today stating: "thank god my rsl wasn't connected,...if that thing was connected I wouldn't be here." The whole RSL debate may in fact be a "Hard Decision." Thank God for all of you guys and nigel99 for pointing this out, In all of our quests to promote each others well being this may end up being one of those personal decisions each of us will have to face. To Illustrate my point, Bill B. came up with the 3 ring System, it clearly save's lives when compared with the old "one shots," one shots are still in wide use by the way. Ok, so now we have "mini rings," and now we have lots of documented cases of mini ring failure... Time will tell with some areas of equipment. Other equipment areas are : Hard Decisions. C Additionally, by the way, so there is no misunderstanding...if your a student at my dropzone your rsl is connected,..or you don't jump...period But what do I know, "I only have one tandem jump."

I do have one piece of wisdom to share with you that I hope you remember,... Don't open at 12 grand for the thrill of it in the winter, in any really cold area, the extra time in the super cold air is insane! And I meant it,... if you can afford to do something every two weeks whilst you are learning,...that is a good thing and will serve you well. If you can't jump every two weeks and after a winter layover as many are faced with...Then start out slow...THERE is no shame in level ones, in fact demand some time on the ground. And review the shit out of everything!!! And again, if available, if time/ money permit,...find a tunnel. Good Luck and keep up the good work. C But what do I know, "I only have one tandem jump."

The first thing I want to say is my first (brand new, that my pimping mom,...) rig was a Racer purchased from Don in Pepperell in 93 or 94. I love Jump Shack. BUT I have never heard of the: "Ram Air Recovery Position." I remember this quote from Brian Germain: "I find that nervous pilots can’t connect with their parachute because it isn’t touching their bones." I have returned to this sport after a long layoff and quite frankly I'm a little concerned that more than I have anticipated has changed... Can you say Father John J. Geoghan ? But what do I know, "I only have one tandem jump."