My canopy change for Wingsuit decision

[romus 0]

I am looking for advice on my canopy change decision to suit Wing Suiting.

I am 1.4 WL on a PD Vengeance at the moment and now am looking to change to a Pilot, but what size.

NOTE: If you look at my profile you will see my WL is high for jump numbers, but apart from skydiving I built up to flying down mountains with my vengeance (Groundlaunching/speedflying) which has made my canopy skills comparatively good to jump numbers.

I could do Pilot 168 with their FXS material or a Pilot 150 with zero-P material. Either one would fit will in my bag as a standard fit, which is presently a tight fit for the Vengeance 170.

If I go to the 150 my W/L goes up from ~1.4 to ~1.6 and I want to know if my ability to fly Vengeance 170 on 1.4 might parallel the skills to go to a Pilot 150 on 1.6?

If not maybe i will go for the 168, which no doubt will be more placid than my 170 vengeance.

One consideration is the shorter line length of the 150 ie if shorter then there is some reduction of risk of line twists, right?

Does wing loading 1.4 to 1.6 have much affect on the Pilot landing?

From what I can tell the wing loading difference won't affect the stable on heading opening characteristics of the Pilot, right?

I am in Australia, so not sure here if I can demo. I think with a bit of advice I can settle on a decision.

Thanks for any feedback.

[millertime24 8]

I say Pilot. As for size, I'm not really qualified to give advice.

Muff #5048

[BIRDDOCTOR 0]

I just ordered a pilot ZPX after a day of demoing one. I was
very impressed how it deployed with wingsuiting.

Base# 1638

[jonmurrell 0]

Get the 168

This isn't flying, its falling with style.

[Martini 0]

I'm not trying to be a dick here but.........asking questions like that indicates that you shouldn't be downsizing especially with a wingsuit. Not inferring that you shouldn't ask, just that you answer your own question. OK? 180 jumps + wingsuit+ 1.6 w/l=bad idea

Sometimes you eat the bear..............

[jurgencamps 0]

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I am looking for advice on my canopy change decision to suit Wing Suiting.

I could do Pilot 168 with their FXS material or a Pilot 150 with zero-P material. Either one would fit will in my bag as a standard fit, which is presently a tight fit for the Vengeance 170.
Thanks for any feedback.

You know that a Vengeance 170 has the same packingvolume (more or less) than a non airlocked 190 sq feet 9 cell?

[romus 0]

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I'm not trying to be a dick here but.........asking questions like that indicates that you shouldn't be downsizing especially with a wingsuit. Not inferring that you shouldn't ask, just that you answer your own question. OK? 180 jumps + wingsuit+ 1.6 w/l=bad idea

Well, maybe you are right, but I still cannot be satisfied with a judgement just on my skydiving jump numbers. I wanted to know some info on flight characteristics of the Pilot in relation to W/L. that is useful information, if I can find it out. that means I can make an 'informed decision'.

I don't think decisions on W/L just relate to Skydiving Jump Numbers. I mentioned I have flown my vengeance down mountains. By that I mean proximity flying, let's say 10 - 20 kilometers of skimming the ground, using front and rear risers and toggles and landing in tight spots. this has some effect on my canopy skills.

Here is my question put another way:

Q1: Does a 1.6 W/L on a Pilot give on heading openigns as stable as a 1.4 W/L on a Pilot, in terms of desired stability of on heading openings for Wing suit jumps?

Relevance to me: If the answer is that a Pilot 1.6 W/L is more twitchy, then I would be staying at my same wingloading.

Q2: Does the shorter line length of a Pilot 150 have an effect on this question?

Relevance to me: Just interested in the effect of line length for stability of on heading openings.

[gzimmermann 0]

Not specifically to your 2 questions but: I jump a Pilot 168 for 180 jumps now, 21 with wingsuit. Loaded at 1.25. I had on-heading openings 9 out of 10 before. Wingsuiting brought me down to about 50%. I had my first cutaway with a spinning mal on ws jump 20. Without blaming the packer but maybe (a little) relevant: I took the luxury to not pack on my own for my ws jumps. Bottom line for me: the Pilot is probably very docile but my current ws skills still challenge it even with the same wingloading.

[romus 0]

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You know that a Vengeance 170 has the same packingvolume (more or less) than a non airlocked 190 sq feet 9 cell?

Good check question - thanks.

Yep, the airlock does make the vengeance 170 pack volume (~468) greater than many other canopies of the same size. Depends on different canopies, aye. Similar to STILETTO 190, SPECTRE 190, Pilot 210, Triathlon 160, FIREBOLT 200, P D 210, SABRE 210.

Actually I have to role my vengeance real tight to get in in my bag.

The main thing is my bag size and what is standard fit according to Relative Workshops ( I have a Vector 3).

A Pilot 150 Zero-P is a standard fit in my V348 bag according to relative Workshops. the Pilot 168 Zero-P would be a tight fit, so since they say ZPX packs the same as one sise down, I figure a Pilot 168 ZPX will also fit standard in my bag. Actually I am double checking this with them.

[romus 0]

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Not specifically to your 2 questions but: I jump a Pilot 168 for 180 jumps now, 21 with wingsuit. Loaded at 1.25. I had on-heading openings 9 out of 10 before. Wingsuiting brought me down to about 50%. I had my first cutaway with a spinning mal on ws jump 20. Without blaming the packer but maybe (a little) relevant: I took the luxury to not pack on my own for my ws jumps. Bottom line for me: the Pilot is probably very docile but my current ws skills still challenge it even with the same wingloading.

Yes that's relevant. Hmm. packing variable one issue. Seems, just from my reading, that opennign in full flight reduced stability of on heading opening and of course stable body position.

I am just planning on Wingsuit jumps in the future. At the moment I am practicing Wing suit deployment procedures with a tracking suit and plan to do this with a new Pilot for quite a few jumps before I do a Wingsuit course.

Hmm, clearly though, I'm not going to increase my W/L when lookign at new Pilot options.

[monkycndo 0]

Your ground launching can help with your canopy skills close to the ground, but does nothing to prepare for the possibility/likelyhood of an unstable deployment when you start wingsuiting. Downsizing, changing canopy and adding wingsuiting all at the same time is not something I would suggest. Knowing how your canopy feels as it inflates is important so you can focus on wingsuiting, not whether you will be fighting linetwists on opening.

Shorter lines will have an impact. I have many jumps on Nitro/Nitron 150s loaded at ~1.45for WS. Line twists on those were just a nuisance. I recently downsized to a 135 and those same linetwists had me spinning on my back resulting in a cutaway. The more heavily loaded canopy responds more quickly to input, leaving less time to respond when that input was not intentional. I really enjoy how the 135 flies, but am considering only using it for belly jumps and staying with the 150.

The pilot is a good canopy for wingsuiting, but I would suggest the 168 and wait until you have some experience both in the suit and under the larger canopy before you consider downsizing.

50 donations so far. Give it a try.

You know you want to spank it
Jump an Infinity

[romus 0]

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Y...Downsizing, changing canopy and adding wingsuiting all at the same time is not something I would suggest. ... I have many jumps on Nitro/Nitron 150s loaded at ~1.45for WS. Line twists on those were just a nuisance. I recently downsized to a 135 and those same linetwists had me spinning on my back resulting in a cutaway. ...The pilot is a good canopy for wingsuiting, but I would suggest the 168 and wait until you have some experience both in the suit and under the larger canopy before you consider downsizing.

I am planning to get a Pilot, get well used to it, then do wing suiting. Not at the same time. Because I know I need to change out of my Vengeance for Wing suiting I am wanting to do it early, so I can get used to it's deployment - practice opening with a tracking suit using wing suit opening procedures.

hey, what you say about the effect of higher W/L is pretty clear. It seems that higher wingloading makes any canopy more twitchy, whether changing canopies or going up in W/L on the same model.

So, yep. no way am I increasing wing Loading. thanks for the feedback.

[phoenixlpr 0]

For something to think about. I know guys jumping with Katana and FX. You can jump with any canopy your are comfortable with.

I got 3 canopies: Cobalt Competition 105, Cobalt 135 and Triathlon 160. I spend about ~90 seconds under canopy if I have a hop and pop with my CC my WL is about 2.2+. I might have 2+ minutes if I open my Cobalt about 1000m, WL 1.7+. I spend more than 3 minutes under my Triathlon160, WL 1.4+.

I jump wing suit with my Cobalt and Triathlon, and not using CC for that.

I did try Cobalt with WS 3 years ago, I've almost landed out, it was stressful and I got an ugly landing too......

Your choice.

[romus 0]

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F..You can jump with any canopy your are comfortable with.

I got 3 canopies: Cobalt Competition 105, Cobalt 135 and Triathlon 160. I spend about ~90 seconds under canopy if I have a hop and pop with my CC my WL is about 2.2+. I might have 2+ minutes if I open my Cobalt about 1000m, WL 1.7+. I spend more than 3 minutes under my Triathlon160, WL 1.4+....Your choice.

Sure can see that W/L affect. Very interesting. Proves WL doesn't transfer just to more lift and i think it shows that turns on high WL dive more vs flatter turn effct on higher WL.

The big question for Wing suiting seems to be the opening characteristics, as the biggest safety concern. Secondly, I can see short recovery arcs are helpful if landing off, the chance of which is increased.

Yeah, exactly I am NOT comfortable with my vengeance to take it to Wing suiting. Presently, I need to take hold of the rear risers on opening to control the heading. It wants to dive to the side more than it wants to fly straight - actually good training for me on body position and steering with harness on opening, too. So, I need another before I get into Wing suiting.

I can switch to my vengeance for other dives, if I want to. Hmm, did look at the Firebolt, since it is eliptical with good heading openigns, but in the end the Pilot seems to have the best write ups for on heading openings.

[Martini 0]

Save yourself a bunch of money, get an "old" Sabre. I can safely suggest this as I have all the Sabres I'll ever need, no worries about the price going up.

Sometimes you eat the bear..............

[DSE 3]

I keep a Sabre 1/170 rig for students that only have elliptical canopies or very high wingloadings.
The Sabre 1 is a very good wingsuiting canopy, IMO.
Coupla guys around here have picked them up very low-cost and are very happy with them.

[Martini 0]

I have four for wingsuiting, wouldn't trade 'em for anything I can think of.

Sometimes you eat the bear..............

[phoenixlpr 0]

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Sure can see that W/L affect. Very interesting. Proves WL doesn't transfer just to more lift and i think it shows that turns on high WL dive more vs flatter turn effct on higher WL.

Just remember you need more time before you can fly your canopy and you loose more altitude on a higher WL, more diving canopy.

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The big question for Wing suiting seems to be the opening characteristics, as the biggest safety concern. Secondly, I can see short recovery arcs are helpful if landing off, the chance of which is increased.

I landed out 3 times in 4 years which was not planned.

I used to have a Pilot 150. Its a nice all-around canopy.

[Pendragon 1]

Like Monkey said, the problems with a higher wingloaded canopy is that they don't respond too well in line twists - and that can even apply to a pilot.

You will most likely take a few jumps to get yourself confident of deploying your wingsuit in a completely stable position.

However, 1.6 on a Pilot isn't that bad for a wingsuit (I use a Safire2 129 @ 1.6 myself and never have problems) and, with wingsuit experience, is fine - theoretically. Only you and the people around you know whether you're ready to fly the higher w/l canopy though.

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BASE #1182
Muff #3573
PFI #52; UK WSI #13