skip 0 #1 November 18, 2003 I was looking through today’s new classified and saw this JAV for sale with what is described as dynamic corners, looking at the picture the main trays bottom flap seams to almost completely open up and lay flat. Is this the said dynamic corners, am I seeing things? One of the things I don’t like about my JAV is that when I put the bag in the tray and then push (twist) it down into place I do not know what is happening to my line stows. From what I think I am seeing on this container that would be eliminated by just folding the bottom flap up on the already in place bag. http://www.dropzone.com/cgi-bin/classifieds/jump.cgi?ID=5144&view=Image&d=1 So what’s the deal with that main tray, does it work out well? Thanks for de info. .:skip Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
gus 1 #2 November 18, 2003 Yes, those are dynamic corners. They were originally conceived (I believe by Robert Jones at Morpheus) to make wingsuit deployments cleaner - by opening up the corners you prevent the 'lip' at the bottom of the container obstructing the dbag/canopy as it leaves at an angle behind you rather than directly above you. I know what you mean about wondering what is happening to your line stows when you rotate the dbag but I've never packed a skydiving rig with dynamic corners so I don't know what difference it makes. GusOutpatientsOnline.com Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
skygod7777 0 #3 November 18, 2003 if your worried about what is happening with your line stows, why not leave it gromet up (not rolling the bag)?? this is how i pack every rig, unless it won't close and look right unless you roll it in (like a voodoo, or a mirage G4). later Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
diablopilot 2 #4 November 19, 2003 Quoteif your worried about what is happening with your line stows, why not leave it gromet up (not rolling the bag)?? this is how i pack every rig, unless it won't close and look right unless you roll it in (like a voodoo, or a mirage G4). While I agree with you that it's not a problem to pack that way, and the chances of an issue are low, I find it in bad form to recommend publicly to break from the manufacturers instructions on packing the rig. Your personal situation (size/type of container, size/type of canopy, pack job, experience, deployment style) may vary greatly from someone who take your advice, and you have no way of checking their work, or situation. There has been atleast one infamous incident in the last few years resulting in a fatality in which a contributing factor was the individual placing their bag in the container in a fashion not approved by the manufacturer. RTM. It's the way it was designed.---------------------------------------------- You're not as good as you think you are. Seriously. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
skygod7777 0 #5 November 19, 2003 QuoteWhile I agree with you that it's not a problem to pack that way, and the chances of an issue are low, I find it in bad form to recommend publicly to break from the manufacturers instructions on packing the rig. what issues could occur?? i guess i have never thought of any cons to this, only pro's, those being that your lines have less chance of being stripped when you roll the bag into the container, or when it is lifted out by the pilot chute. the way i have always thought about it is the pilot chute has to lift it straight off your back, so why not just have it sitting that way before you close it. QuoteYour personal situation (size/type of container, size/type of canopy, pack job, experience, deployment style) may vary greatly from someone who take your advice, and you have no way of checking their work, or situation. your right, this is very true. but i do know people who own javelin's and odyssey's that do this, and i have always packed them like this. and considering the guy who is asking about the dynamic corners jumps a javelin i though i would say what i did. QuoteThere has been atleast one infamous incident in the last few years resulting in a fatality in which a contributing factor was the individual placing their bag in the container in a fashion not approved by the manufacturer. i guess i haven't heard of this one, can you please elaborate?? i am very curious about what problems this could cause. thanks Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites johnny1488 1 #6 November 19, 2003 I was wondering a little something different about the "wingsuit" mod. How does the container look and function when not using a wingsuit? Any noticable difference in appearance or care (ie closing)? Not just a question for you, anyone reading the thread. Johnny --"This ain't no book club, we're all gonna die!" Mike Rome Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites skygod7777 0 #7 November 19, 2003 QuoteI was wondering a little something different about the "wingsuit" mod. How does the container look and function when not using a wingsuit? Any noticable difference in appearance or care (ie closing)? i have seen a couple rigs like this, and the look of them seams to be the same as any other javelin out there. same goes for the wings that have the wingsuit mod on them, i put it on mine and can't tell a difference after i close it. now, when closing it, it's a bit more of a pain, because you have to pay more attention to the corner of the container to make sure that your bag isn't sticking out the side or something like that. later Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites FrogNog 1 #8 November 19, 2003 QuoteQuoteWhile I agree with you that it's not a problem to pack that way, and the chances of an issue are low, I find it in bad form to recommend publicly to break from the manufacturers instructions on packing the rig. what issues could occur?? i guess i have never thought of any cons to this, only pro's, those being that your lines have less chance of being stripped when you roll the bag into the container, or when it is lifted out by the pilot chute. the way i have always thought about it is the pilot chute has to lift it straight off your back, so why not just have it sitting that way before you close it. I think part of the reason to rotate the bag 90 degrees from grommet-to-pin to grommet-to-reserve (and thus lines from small-of-back to bottom-of-pack) before closing is to make the lines immediately above the risers lay more straight and further away from the line bights, to reduce the possibility of getting a bight-wrap baglock. But I haven't read this anywhere, nor anything about how having less line from the riser to the first bight might prevent this. If you ask people at my DZ who watch me pack, you'll hear the term "anal" (as in analytic, thank you). So this may not matter to anyone else. -=-=-=-=- Pull. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites JackR 0 #9 November 19, 2003 I saw in a thread awhile back with some good advice about designing gear: If you don't completely understand it, copy it exactly. I guess a corollary to that could be, unless you designed it, follow the instructions. At PIA this year I learned that there is a right way and a wrong way to put reinforcement tape on the pilot chute mesh. I had never considered that there was a difference. The gear designers have considered this and decided on a right way. I'm going to suspect that there is some similar reasoning behind packing with the lines down. Why else would they take the time to print up big labels and the extra time to sew them onto the flaps that say Pack with the Lines to the Bottom. The other reason I figure that there is a good reason for this is because it hasn't always been this way. I had a client with a 1987 Sweethog. Luckily the folks at SSK were kind enough to send me the packing manual for this container. It, like some of the rigs from this time, was packed with the lines to the top. That means that sometime near 1987, gear manufacturers made a decision to switch to packing with the lines to bottom. I also remember a discussion in the mid-90's about switching to packing with the lines against the backpad as is described here, yet most of the manufacturers have not changed this in their design. If you prefer this packing method, I recommend the Wings container. It is the only container that I know of in the States that gives the user the option of packing with the lines to the top or against the backpad. I don't know all of the pros and cons to this packing method, but consider that the main D-bag was designed and built to fit exactly in the main pack tray using the packing instructions. I can't think fo many main D-bags that are square on the ends where it wouldn't matter on the orientation of the bag. I know the Javelin has a rectangular shape. If you pack this main D-bag in a different orientation, it will apply stresses to the container flaps that the container was not designed or tested with. This changes much of the structural loading of the container walls and may be causing damage to the gear in unexpected places. Also at PIA this past year, during the demonstration of the reserve packing method for the Javelin Odyssey, SunPath made a point to discuss filling the D-bag. This applies to both the reserve and the main. If you have canopy pushing out of the bag it will lay poorly in the container and be harder to close. It also looks bad.. Please consult with the manufacturer before changing their instructions.Packin' Jack 42nd Lost Prairie: The Ultimate Answer to Life, the Universe, and Skydiving 25 Jul - 3 Aug 2009 2007 photos: http://www.skydive.com/prairie/pages/prairie.htm Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites kimgriffin 0 #10 November 19, 2003 Hi Skip. I have about 300 jumps on my Odyssey with dynamic corners. I have had sweet openings whether I'm WS flying or doing RW (or the rare freefly jump). My lines stay where I put them - although I pack either bridle up or bridle towards the main PC (for WS flying). I don't think you should have a problem packing that rig (Vladi?) in your standard configuration. I've seen Vladi's rig packed and his corners are tight. You will have to make sure to keep your closing look snug to keep the corners tight. Yes, Robert Jones from Morpheus Technologies was the orginal designer of these corners. ~Kim Griffin Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites diablopilot 2 #11 November 19, 2003 Quotewhat issues could occur? On a modern Javelin, not much. Maybe the risers could hook up on the reserve tray as they leave. Older Javelins have the main closing loop on the bottom of reserve tray, and there could be a posible entanglement scenario. Quotei guess i haven't heard of this one, can you please elaborate?? There was a fatality a few years ago in which the jumper packed contrary to the instructions and ended up with a horseshoe entanglement. My point is I will always recomend to the public that they follow manufacturers instructions on maintinece and operation of gear even if I don't. Unless I know and can inspect their individual situation, it's the only safe and helpful course of action.---------------------------------------------- You're not as good as you think you are. Seriously. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Yoshi 0 #12 November 19, 2003 I have an oddessey and the only way I pack it is gromet up. I have had no issues with it and when its packed it still looks good (pending you like my choice of patterns and colors) Im with skygod on this one... I think it is more logical (especially if you stow your lines correctly) to pack it with the line stows facing the back pad/ grommet on pilot chute facing the pin... -yoshi_________________________________________ this space for rent. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites jsaxton 0 #13 November 20, 2003 Wings has an option like this. I believe it's mainly used for birdman suits. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites jsaxton 0 #14 November 20, 2003 I believe that someone had a line snag on the bottom of the reserve container. That is why somw mfgrs say to stow the free line at the bottom of the main container. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites riggerrob 558 #15 November 20, 2003 I can't think of many main D-bags that are square on the ends where it wouldn't matter on the orientation of the bag. I know the Javelin has a rectangular shape. >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> D-bag shape is the most important variable here. If the d-bag is looks "square" - from the side, it makes little difference whether the bridle attachment is packed near the reserve or pin. Heck! The Sunrise manual even says that d-bag orientation does not matter on their smaller Wings containers. On the other hand, I would discourage anyone from packing with their bridle attachment at the bottom, because most main containers are sewn together a bit where the side flaps meet the bottom flap. Trying to drag the bridle attachment past this extra stitching is a slow or difficult process. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites diablopilot 2 #16 November 20, 2003 QuoteIm with skygod on this one... I think it is more logical (especially if you stow your lines correctly) to pack it with the line stows facing the back pad/ grommet on pilot chute facing the pin... I think you're missing my point. If YOU wish to pack your rig in a manner not in line with the manufacturers instructions, have at it. It's your skin. However to publicly recommend that it's acceptable to not follow the manufacturers instructions is irresponsible, and if you are a rigger it's borderline criminal. What happens when some 60 jump wonder who does not quite understand your instructions packs lines to the top, on their 93' Javelin, that they purchased second hand (no manual), which has the closing loop on the bottom of the reserve container, hasn't had the safety flap modification performed because their rigger is some part time guy they found at a back water DZ, and has a loose or underset gromet on the closing loop flap? Maybe nothing, maybe they have an entanglement and die.---------------------------------------------- You're not as good as you think you are. Seriously. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Yoshi 0 #17 November 20, 2003 I got your point.... I was jsut stating what I do and why...not what others shoudl or shouldnt do.... -yoshi_________________________________________ this space for rent. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites kimgriffin 0 #18 November 21, 2003 OMG - Please don't let this guy be a "60 jump wonder" - the harness is meant for a BIG person and the container for small parachutes! ~Kim Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites skip 0 #19 November 21, 2003 QuoteOMG - Please don't let this guy be a "60 jump wonder" - the harness is meant for a BIG person and the container for small parachutes! Naw Naw, thanks for the concern but I'm not interested in this specific container just had never seen "dynamic corners" before. I have been thinking about ordering a new container but it would be sized respectfully for my current rigs guts. .:skip Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites diablopilot 2 #20 November 21, 2003 Sorry to alarm you Kim, I was making a hypothetical scenario to make a point.---------------------------------------------- You're not as good as you think you are. Seriously. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites 1234hutch 0 #21 November 22, 2003 Well my understanding (as a rigger) is that the"normal" bag orietation and the cupped corners of the rig combine to cause the bag to pivot and break the flaps open. I'll accept feed back on this from peolpe who remember what a jeasus cord was or have jump a b4 container. buried in the design section of the rigger bible is background on this as well. Oh by the way Yes I am current ...very. hutch mr tq2 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Join the conversation You can post now and register later. 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johnny1488 1 #6 November 19, 2003 I was wondering a little something different about the "wingsuit" mod. How does the container look and function when not using a wingsuit? Any noticable difference in appearance or care (ie closing)? Not just a question for you, anyone reading the thread. Johnny --"This ain't no book club, we're all gonna die!" Mike Rome Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
skygod7777 0 #7 November 19, 2003 QuoteI was wondering a little something different about the "wingsuit" mod. How does the container look and function when not using a wingsuit? Any noticable difference in appearance or care (ie closing)? i have seen a couple rigs like this, and the look of them seams to be the same as any other javelin out there. same goes for the wings that have the wingsuit mod on them, i put it on mine and can't tell a difference after i close it. now, when closing it, it's a bit more of a pain, because you have to pay more attention to the corner of the container to make sure that your bag isn't sticking out the side or something like that. later Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
FrogNog 1 #8 November 19, 2003 QuoteQuoteWhile I agree with you that it's not a problem to pack that way, and the chances of an issue are low, I find it in bad form to recommend publicly to break from the manufacturers instructions on packing the rig. what issues could occur?? i guess i have never thought of any cons to this, only pro's, those being that your lines have less chance of being stripped when you roll the bag into the container, or when it is lifted out by the pilot chute. the way i have always thought about it is the pilot chute has to lift it straight off your back, so why not just have it sitting that way before you close it. I think part of the reason to rotate the bag 90 degrees from grommet-to-pin to grommet-to-reserve (and thus lines from small-of-back to bottom-of-pack) before closing is to make the lines immediately above the risers lay more straight and further away from the line bights, to reduce the possibility of getting a bight-wrap baglock. But I haven't read this anywhere, nor anything about how having less line from the riser to the first bight might prevent this. If you ask people at my DZ who watch me pack, you'll hear the term "anal" (as in analytic, thank you). So this may not matter to anyone else. -=-=-=-=- Pull. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
JackR 0 #9 November 19, 2003 I saw in a thread awhile back with some good advice about designing gear: If you don't completely understand it, copy it exactly. I guess a corollary to that could be, unless you designed it, follow the instructions. At PIA this year I learned that there is a right way and a wrong way to put reinforcement tape on the pilot chute mesh. I had never considered that there was a difference. The gear designers have considered this and decided on a right way. I'm going to suspect that there is some similar reasoning behind packing with the lines down. Why else would they take the time to print up big labels and the extra time to sew them onto the flaps that say Pack with the Lines to the Bottom. The other reason I figure that there is a good reason for this is because it hasn't always been this way. I had a client with a 1987 Sweethog. Luckily the folks at SSK were kind enough to send me the packing manual for this container. It, like some of the rigs from this time, was packed with the lines to the top. That means that sometime near 1987, gear manufacturers made a decision to switch to packing with the lines to bottom. I also remember a discussion in the mid-90's about switching to packing with the lines against the backpad as is described here, yet most of the manufacturers have not changed this in their design. If you prefer this packing method, I recommend the Wings container. It is the only container that I know of in the States that gives the user the option of packing with the lines to the top or against the backpad. I don't know all of the pros and cons to this packing method, but consider that the main D-bag was designed and built to fit exactly in the main pack tray using the packing instructions. I can't think fo many main D-bags that are square on the ends where it wouldn't matter on the orientation of the bag. I know the Javelin has a rectangular shape. If you pack this main D-bag in a different orientation, it will apply stresses to the container flaps that the container was not designed or tested with. This changes much of the structural loading of the container walls and may be causing damage to the gear in unexpected places. Also at PIA this past year, during the demonstration of the reserve packing method for the Javelin Odyssey, SunPath made a point to discuss filling the D-bag. This applies to both the reserve and the main. If you have canopy pushing out of the bag it will lay poorly in the container and be harder to close. It also looks bad.. Please consult with the manufacturer before changing their instructions.Packin' Jack 42nd Lost Prairie: The Ultimate Answer to Life, the Universe, and Skydiving 25 Jul - 3 Aug 2009 2007 photos: http://www.skydive.com/prairie/pages/prairie.htm Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
kimgriffin 0 #10 November 19, 2003 Hi Skip. I have about 300 jumps on my Odyssey with dynamic corners. I have had sweet openings whether I'm WS flying or doing RW (or the rare freefly jump). My lines stay where I put them - although I pack either bridle up or bridle towards the main PC (for WS flying). I don't think you should have a problem packing that rig (Vladi?) in your standard configuration. I've seen Vladi's rig packed and his corners are tight. You will have to make sure to keep your closing look snug to keep the corners tight. Yes, Robert Jones from Morpheus Technologies was the orginal designer of these corners. ~Kim Griffin Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
diablopilot 2 #11 November 19, 2003 Quotewhat issues could occur? On a modern Javelin, not much. Maybe the risers could hook up on the reserve tray as they leave. Older Javelins have the main closing loop on the bottom of reserve tray, and there could be a posible entanglement scenario. Quotei guess i haven't heard of this one, can you please elaborate?? There was a fatality a few years ago in which the jumper packed contrary to the instructions and ended up with a horseshoe entanglement. My point is I will always recomend to the public that they follow manufacturers instructions on maintinece and operation of gear even if I don't. Unless I know and can inspect their individual situation, it's the only safe and helpful course of action.---------------------------------------------- You're not as good as you think you are. Seriously. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Yoshi 0 #12 November 19, 2003 I have an oddessey and the only way I pack it is gromet up. I have had no issues with it and when its packed it still looks good (pending you like my choice of patterns and colors) Im with skygod on this one... I think it is more logical (especially if you stow your lines correctly) to pack it with the line stows facing the back pad/ grommet on pilot chute facing the pin... -yoshi_________________________________________ this space for rent. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
jsaxton 0 #13 November 20, 2003 Wings has an option like this. I believe it's mainly used for birdman suits. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
jsaxton 0 #14 November 20, 2003 I believe that someone had a line snag on the bottom of the reserve container. That is why somw mfgrs say to stow the free line at the bottom of the main container. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
riggerrob 558 #15 November 20, 2003 I can't think of many main D-bags that are square on the ends where it wouldn't matter on the orientation of the bag. I know the Javelin has a rectangular shape. >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> D-bag shape is the most important variable here. If the d-bag is looks "square" - from the side, it makes little difference whether the bridle attachment is packed near the reserve or pin. Heck! The Sunrise manual even says that d-bag orientation does not matter on their smaller Wings containers. On the other hand, I would discourage anyone from packing with their bridle attachment at the bottom, because most main containers are sewn together a bit where the side flaps meet the bottom flap. Trying to drag the bridle attachment past this extra stitching is a slow or difficult process. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
diablopilot 2 #16 November 20, 2003 QuoteIm with skygod on this one... I think it is more logical (especially if you stow your lines correctly) to pack it with the line stows facing the back pad/ grommet on pilot chute facing the pin... I think you're missing my point. If YOU wish to pack your rig in a manner not in line with the manufacturers instructions, have at it. It's your skin. However to publicly recommend that it's acceptable to not follow the manufacturers instructions is irresponsible, and if you are a rigger it's borderline criminal. What happens when some 60 jump wonder who does not quite understand your instructions packs lines to the top, on their 93' Javelin, that they purchased second hand (no manual), which has the closing loop on the bottom of the reserve container, hasn't had the safety flap modification performed because their rigger is some part time guy they found at a back water DZ, and has a loose or underset gromet on the closing loop flap? Maybe nothing, maybe they have an entanglement and die.---------------------------------------------- You're not as good as you think you are. Seriously. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Yoshi 0 #17 November 20, 2003 I got your point.... I was jsut stating what I do and why...not what others shoudl or shouldnt do.... -yoshi_________________________________________ this space for rent. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
kimgriffin 0 #18 November 21, 2003 OMG - Please don't let this guy be a "60 jump wonder" - the harness is meant for a BIG person and the container for small parachutes! ~Kim Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
skip 0 #19 November 21, 2003 QuoteOMG - Please don't let this guy be a "60 jump wonder" - the harness is meant for a BIG person and the container for small parachutes! Naw Naw, thanks for the concern but I'm not interested in this specific container just had never seen "dynamic corners" before. I have been thinking about ordering a new container but it would be sized respectfully for my current rigs guts. .:skip Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
diablopilot 2 #20 November 21, 2003 Sorry to alarm you Kim, I was making a hypothetical scenario to make a point.---------------------------------------------- You're not as good as you think you are. Seriously. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
1234hutch 0 #21 November 22, 2003 Well my understanding (as a rigger) is that the"normal" bag orietation and the cupped corners of the rig combine to cause the bag to pivot and break the flaps open. I'll accept feed back on this from peolpe who remember what a jeasus cord was or have jump a b4 container. buried in the design section of the rigger bible is background on this as well. Oh by the way Yes I am current ...very. hutch mr tq2 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
