low-timer wingsuit flights

[livendive 8]

So we had someone show up at the dropzone a few weeks ago with 40 skydives, 25 base jumps, and a brand spankin' new suit. I'm a far cry from an expert on wingsuit flying, only putting my S-3 on a few times a year, usually for solo flights. Still, the kid's experience seemed far too limited for my comfort and I told him he would have to make at least a hundred more skydives and demonstrate above average skill and decision-making in order to jump the suit at our DZ. Obviously he wasn't particularly happy about this approach, as he is short on cash, wants to start flying it off objects in the near future, and figured he would be better off flying it out of an airplane a few times first. I agreed the skydiving environment was a better place to learn it, but told him that his base jump wishes didn't exempt him from common sense requirements on experience.

So this morning I got an email from a long-time jumper who apparently observed him on a flight at some other DZ and who endorsed him as "definitely having some skills" and offered to come coach him at our DZ if we wished. My general stance on safety issues is "In the event of an incident, could I look a family member in the face and tell them I did right by their loved one and things just didn't work out?" I'm having a hard time thinking I could do so in this instance, but perhaps there's more going on in the industry than I'm aware of. With the recent growth in brands and models of suits, which I'm completely unaware of, has there been a surge in low-timers jumping "beginner" style wingsuits? This guy tells me this suit is essentially fool-proof, but I'm kinda skeptical. I suppose it's possible that these things have improved to the point a novice can safely fly one, but I haven't heard of such developments except from a guy who thinks he'll be fine. Can any of you more experienced birdmen educate a concerned S&TA who doesn't have a finger on the pulse of wingsuit advances?

Blues,
Dave

"I AM A PROFESSIONAL EXTREME ATHLETE!"
(drink Mountain Dew)

[mccordia 73]

Though some people might do fine being under-qualified to fly a wingsuit in terms of skills and experience, I just dont understand the rush..

If someone doesnt have the patience and willingness to invest in some basic skills before flying a wingsuit..why should they do any different when it comes to getting skills in the wingsuit..

Having the bare minimum or less amount of jumps in which you COULD have gathered essential skills, then starting way to soon big group-dives, and preferably taking the wingsuit off a cliff asap...this seems to be the norm people like and want to endorse..

Though some people seem to have nothing but successtories. the examples Ive seen where less then thrilling, and laughable and scary would mostly sum it up. Though "Yay! Woohhoo" they did jump a wingsuit...

Again...unless somebody is activly planning on not being on this planet for a long time, I dont understand the rush...

There's one new poster on this forum who could share her story and contribute to safety and education on this subject if she's willing to set an example on what not to do? If not..no worries..

But Im a big fan of no for underskilled, undertrained and people who lack the awereness you gain through experience...and sadly..all of us all think we're at the peak of our skills at every point in our skydiving career...20 jumps..100 jumps...1000 jumps...etc.
And everyone can attest to the fact that looking back, you didnt have the knowledge, skills and awereness you had a couple of hundred jumps later.

It depends mostly on ones definition of 'low experience', but anywhere between 200 to 500 jumps reads as low experience to me. Anything bellow 200 reads as zero to no experience.

Coming back to your question..if its sub-200 jump peeps we're talking about. I would advice no..
Even if its only from a legal POV. as all manufacturers list at least 200 jumps (in the last 18 months) as their recommendition/rule.
And if anything goes wrong on one of the jumps of those low-timers, even though its just recommenditions and not actual rules. Those will be the things they hold against you..

JC
FlyLikeBrick
I'm an Athlete?

[LouDiamond 1]

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My general stance on safety issues is "In the event of an incident, could I look a family member in the face and tell them I did right by their loved one and things just didn't work out?"

This is a moral dilemma type situation as you already have a good attitude and outlook about the safety issue. You're going to get a wide range of responses but in the end you have to do what YOU feel is in the best interest of the DZ and in some cases for the individual but most importantly, what you're comfortable with accepting on the risk line. What does the USPA SIM say about wingsuit flights and requirements? It's quite clear. If you believe in the quoted statement above and you know what the SIM says, would you still feel comfortable allowing an individual to jump? There is no right/wrong answer anyone here can give you, you have to do what you know to be the right thing to do and only you can make that call.

"It's just skydiving..additional drama is not required"
Some people dream about flying, I live my dream
SKYMONKEY PUBLISHING

[pilotdave 0]

Sounds like an obvious one to me. It's a definite NO. Sounds like someone that I'd like to piss off and get him to go elsewhere to take his risks.

Dave

[NSEMN8R 0]

I'd say it depends on the situation. Under the right circumstances it could be done safely. I've seen people start out at around that experience level. Not all manufacturers have a 200 jump requirement and I certainly wouldn't blow him off just because of what the SIM recommends.

A new guy with an S3 and an elliptical canopy at a DZ with a small landing area and few outs would probably be a bad idea. But if he's jumping an Intro or something like that with a big fat square canopy with a cypres at a DZ with a huge landing area surrounded by open fields, I'd say fuck it let him jump it. Especially if he's already jumped it before and has an experienced coach or mentor that has that much confidence in him...

[cpoxon 0]

Dave, you're familiar with this fatality I presume?

Skydiving Fatalities - Cease not to learn 'til thou cease to live

[livendive 8]

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Dave, you're familiar with this fatality I presume?

Yeah, and there are too many parallels for me to ignore (including the "extreme" skiing). I actually mentioned that one to this young jumper when trying to explain why he couldn't jump his suit yet, and it turns out his BASE mentor who has told him he'll be fine in a wingsuit was also a friend of the deceased in that incident. I had a rough weekend and was flustered to get the email I mentioned, thus my posting of this thread. A couple of hours later I've pretty much got my mind made up. I'd rather be unpopular than risk feeling guilty over a fatality.

Blues,
Dave

"I AM A PROFESSIONAL EXTREME ATHLETE!"
(drink Mountain Dew)

[mccordia 73]

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I'd say it depends on the situation. Under the right circumstances it could be done safely.without anything going wrong.

Fixed it for ya..

JC
FlyLikeBrick
I'm an Athlete?

[ScottGray 0]

Student suit innovations continue to make first flights safer. That said, there is no substitute for the presence of mind and judgement that comes with the recommended jump numbers.

An instructor, given enough training time with a student, could prepare someone with 50 jumps to survive a wingsuit jump. But can we have a reasonable certainity that they could react appropriately in an emergency situation or to ensure they do not injury someone else (e.g. cross back over the line of flight).

We require 200 jumps before we will train someone.

I have only had 2 - 3 times where I had someone show up with 150+ but less than 200 jumps, and they had been flying a wingsuit, and they wished to do some basic flocking or were seeking coaching.

I asked a significant number of questions and if satisfied to proceed, and then insisted on a solo check dive.

Not sure if the wingsuit was a factor, but the guy that died not long ago in Utah had low jump numbers and was a Base jumper.

Safety needs to be the driving factor, personally I believe we all have a significant responsibility in that we represent a small community and our actions have a great impact how we are seen and treated.

I am aware of DZs that are VERY cold toward wingsuiters for a number of reasons and in some of these cases we have not represented ourselves well.

WSI-5 / PFI-51 / EGI-112 / S-Fly
The Brothers Gray Wing Suit Academy
Contact us for first flight and basic flocking courses at your DZ or boogie.
www.thebrothersgray.com

[MarkM 0]

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My general stance on safety issues is "In the event of an incident, could I look a family member in the face and tell them I did right by their loved one and things just didn't work out?"

A bad wingsuit pilot can kill other people and not just themselves. If I was a TM or AFFI, I wouldn't want some guy with 50 jumps tracking into my airspace.

[west33freefall 0]

I know I don't have much experience and my questions are strictly seeking knowledge. Wing-suit flying is what I want to work towards, and one of the many reasons I am getting into the sport. What makes them so dangerous? I know you are flying totally different than belly flying but what makes it so hard to pull on time? Or not pull? (i.e. the wingsuit fatality mentioned above!) What is the best way to practice up to a wing-suit?

[mccordia 73]

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A bad wingsuit pilot can kill other people and not just themselves.

We nearly 'lost' 2 flyers in cochstedt due to a low experienced flyer diving through a formation. Breaking an arm, and cripling the other flyers leg for a few months.

Had that been a head/neck instead of an arm, the end result would have been way more serious..

And when the first low experienced flyers flies through a tandem he or she didnt see, we'll see a shitload of new rules.
Wingsuits not allowed on tandem loads, wingsuits not allowed on loads with AFF etc.

It all seems far fetched...but the big sky theory only works for so long..and at some point murphy will take over...

Just because some low experience first flights happen without incident, doesnt mean they ARE safe...

JC
FlyLikeBrick
I'm an Athlete?

[Zeemax 0]

Double ditto

*stands up and applauds Jarno*

Phoenix Fly - High performance wingsuits for skydiving and BASE
Performance Designs - Simply brilliant canopies

[Costyn 0]

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Double ditto

*stands up and applauds Jarno*

Indeed, Amen!

Costyn van Dongen - http://www.flylikebrick.com/ - World Wide Wingsuit News

[Hagen 0]

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We nearly 'lost' 2 flyers in cochstedt due to a low experienced flyer diving through a formation. Breaking an arm, and cripling the other flyers leg for a few months.

I know it's stupid to argue with gods... but wasn't it rather load organizers mistake than the flier's?

I'm sure that the person in the beginning of the discussion shouldn't be allowed to start skyflying - same as a fresh AFF-postgraduate.

and I'm sure that almost no one with less than 500 jumps can be called an 'experienced skydiver' (personally I believe that the experience starts after 1000 jumps). and yes, I already know from my own experience that 'wingsuit is not another skydive' (c).

but at the same time we all know some examples of people who started flying having around 100 jumps, and who've made decent careers in the discipline. and I believe that many good experts here can admit that people with lower than 200 number of jumps can try and start flying. and I even believe that it's possible to learn things and progress in wingsuit, not in ff or rw suit - just being much more careful and doing slower steps in it. it's like, a post-AFF can go to an rw formation having smth like 40 jumps in total. but a post-FFC shouldn't rush and try and join ws formation 'cause speeds are bigger and danger is higher and so on.

so, gentlemen, you're welcome to blame me for my incompetence and ignorance, but it happened to me that I started earlier than I had to, and skyflying is the only discipline in skydiving that ever interested me. and now I'm making very slow steps on the way - by one of the old posters here recommendation... and I'm not proud at all of my early start. but I do believe that one can become good in it even if he or she broke the rule of the magic 200. this just may take more efforts and of course some experienced flyers's supervision.

amen. welcome to crucify me for the rebel against gods and for the unpopular opinion (though I know that some experts agree with me - even though they don't say about it loudly).

ps. right now I highly recommend my fellow skydivers to wait a little (till the 200) - at least to get more pleasure of their future flights. and of course because of safety etc.
pps. sorry for such a long post. I know that I shouldn't have written it - at least not to damage own reputation. but I've had so many arguments with someone having absolutely opposite opinion that I just don't care anymore and just want to express my stupid idea of the question.
ppps. I can imagine that by 1000 jumps I'll change the opinion completely. well, then by the time I'll be able to laugh reading the bullshit

[Butters 0]

I agree with your opinion.

"That looks dangerous." Leopold Stotch

[LouDiamond 1]

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but wasn't it rather load organizers mistake than the flier's?

I was the load organizer for the group where this individual had her accident. As a load organizer, my primary concern is the safety of the entire group, each and every individual. Which is why on one occasion during this boogie, I had a whole load not jump because clouds were coming into the airplane when the tail opened up and we could not see the ground. This angered some people on the load but not everyone is comfortable,nor is it smart for groups of people to fly in conditions where there is very limited visibility.

With regard to the accident, the woman involved had flown with the group for several days prior to the accident and had even held a position in the base of the formation without issue and had not displayed any flight characteristics to indicate that she was a hazard to herself, other jumpers or was in over her head. During every jump debrief safety issues where identified and jumpers were reminded to clear their airspace and fly defensively on every jump. The type of accident that happened in this instance is similar to the types of collisions that are encountered on RW formation loads where one diver collides with another on the way to the base. In this instance it was shortly after exit. This is and was jumper error. I take responsibility for the jump and for those on it but I, or any other organizer, cannot be expected to take responsibility for the mistakes made by the jumpers themselves during the skydive be it wingsuit, RW or FF. As safe as we try to make every jump and mitigate the risks, there will always be an inherent danger, be it a 2 way or a 45 way, and human error will always factor into the equation. For these very reasons I am as adamant as I am about safety issues be it training first timers, flocking or flying habits when it comes to Wingsuiting or skydiving in general.

Some people like to try and rationalize away requirements or safety concerns for ego by giving examples of how easy it is or how they have "mad skillz" and shouldn't have to wait. These people fail to realize that they don't know what they don't know yet. It's never hard when everything goes right, but it gets very hard when something goes wrong and in Wingsuiting things can go wrong very fast and quickly identifying the corrective action may not be intuitive as some would think. I've been saying this for years and every year there is a new batch who think they are the exception. There are no exceptions and like Tyler Durden said...." You are not special...". There is a good reason why things are the way they are.

"It's just skydiving..additional drama is not required"
Some people dream about flying, I live my dream
SKYMONKEY PUBLISHING

[NSEMN8R 0]

If the guy fucked up and crashed into someone else then it was his own fault. You can't blame someone else for "letting" him do it.

I agree with a lot of the rest of your post though. I've found that people on the internet are a lot more critical of low jump number flyers than in real life.

I can see where some of the other guys are coming from though. Not wanting some 80 jump chump in a wingsuit coming out after an otter load of tandems makes sense. I guess the difference is I'm looking at it from the perspective of a single 182 DZ. I'd probably have no problem letting the guy Dave is talking about jump on a load where I'm doing a tandem. I'd just let him get out first and do a quick go around, but you can't do that at a big dz.

I would agree that it would be safer if he waited until he had 200 or 500 or whatever jumps, but the fact is he's a licenced skydiver and a grown up. If he wants to do it, why stop him? Yes, a low jump number guy went in with a no pull, but no one can say for sure it wouldn't have happened if he'd had 1000 jumps. Or even if he wasn't wearing a wingsuit. Yes, more new guys will probably die wearing wingsuits, but there are going to be new guys hooking themselves into the ground too. Should we go back to the days of having to have X number of jumps to jump a ram air canopy?

[Hagen 0]

Scott, I didn't really mean to accuse anyone, of course

[ScottGray 0]

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Quote

A bad wingsuit pilot can kill other people and not just themselves.

We nearly 'lost' 2 flyers in cochstedt due to a low experienced flyer diving through a formation. Breaking an arm, and cripling the other flyers leg for a few months.

Had that been a head/neck instead of an arm, the end result would have been way more serious..

And when the first low experienced flyers flies through a tandem he or she didnt see, we'll see a shitload of new rules.
Wingsuits not allowed on tandem loads, wingsuits not allowed on loads with AFF etc.

It all seems far fetched...but the big sky theory only works for so long..and at some point murphy will take over...

Just because some low experience first flights happen without incident, doesnt mean they ARE safe...

SO RIGHT YOU ARE ---- we are already on the fringe of the sport and get a cool reception at some DZs. Any incident linked to a wingsuit in any way is magnified and harms the entire wingsuit community.

I have seen the attitude mentioned above and it does not take much. We tend to get labeled as a group.

Well said Jarno.

WSI-5 / PFI-51 / EGI-112 / S-Fly
The Brothers Gray Wing Suit Academy
Contact us for first flight and basic flocking courses at your DZ or boogie.
www.thebrothersgray.com

[NSEMN8R 0]

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Some people like to try and rationalize away requirements or safety concerns for ego by giving examples of how easy it is or how they have "mad skillz" and shouldn't have to wait. These people fail to realize that they don't know what they don't know yet. It's never hard when everything goes right, but it gets very hard when something goes wrong and in Wingsuiting things can go wrong very fast and quickly identifying the corrective action may not be intuitive as some would think. I've been saying this for years and every year there is a new batch who think they are the exception. There are no exceptions and like Tyler Durden said...." You are not special...". There is a good reason why things are the way they are.

You and many others on here say people's big egos and their "look at me with my Mad Skillz" attitudes make them want to fly wingsuits "before they're ready" so they can be cool.

At the other end of the Spectrum you have guys like NickNitro who say that the people who come up with and try to enforce these "rules" do so because they have a small cock and need something to make them feel special. Like they want the new guys to look up to them as the Elite and want to grow up to be like them or something. Just more ego shit.

I think it's just a matter of perspective.

I think a lot of the recommendations were designed with big multi turbine dzs in mind. I've taught a lot of my friends with 100 jumps or maybe even less to fly wingsuits. Not out of any kind of ego or because of any "Mad Skillz". I'm not the awesome instructor or jedi wingsuit pilot that a lot of you guys are and I'm fine with that. I'm a weekend warrior with mediocre ws skills. I just do it for fun. I taught them to fly ws because I wanted someone to fly with and they wanted to learn. I don't see how anyone can say I did anything reckless or unsafe by teaching them. They fly just fine now.

Not trying to take anything away from you guys who take this stuff serious. It takes a lot of jumps and a lot of skills to fly a wingsuit really well but it's just not that hard to do it without dying. Even when things go badly. With the right gear in the right environment it's just really no big deal.

[LouDiamond 1]

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At the other end of the Spectrum you have guys like NickNitro who say that the people who come up with and try to enforce these "rules" do so because they have a small cock and need something to make them feel special.

Lets put this in perspective. You and I have had this discussion in person and perhaps your jumping at a 182 DZ has influenced your perception of what is safe to do, I don't know. But I do know that your prerogative on this subject needlessly puts the unwitting person in situations in which they might not yet be able to handle and or may potentially put them in danger. The "rules" that you mentioned are rules established by the suit manufacturers in the same manner in which parachute and rig manufacturers in this industry commonly use for their products. In other words, it is an industry standard or norm. These same rules are also condoned by the USPA, which is the governing body for all parachutists in the USA. Both have the jumpers safety in mind and wish to see their products used in the manner in which they were designed by people properly trained to use them. The statement about cock size is sophomoric and at best is an indication of a lack of maturity, which would in part explain the inability to grasp the gravity of being concerned for others safety. If you ask me, it's people who balk at the rules just because they are rules that have the need to set themselves apart to feel special.

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I think a lot of the recommendations were designed with big multi turbine dzs in mind. I've taught a lot of my friends with 100 jumps or maybe even less to fly wingsuits.....I taught them to fly ws because I wanted someone to fly with and they wanted to learn. I don't see how anyone can say I did anything reckless or unsafe by teaching them. They fly just fine now.

Every heard of the butterfly effect? So what happens when they go to a big turbine DZ or boogie thats drastically different from a 182 DZ and they think they are good to go in their wingsuit or even ready to fly in flocks? Does this make sense now or do you really not give a damn about how your actions may effect other human beings?

"It's just skydiving..additional drama is not required"
Some people dream about flying, I live my dream
SKYMONKEY PUBLISHING

[NSEMN8R 0]

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Lets put this in perspective. You and I have had this discussion in person and perhaps your jumping at a 182 DZ has influenced your perception of what is safe to do, I don't know.

Yes it has. Just like jumping at a big dz has influenced your perception.

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But I do know that your prerogative on this subject needlessly puts the unwitting person in situations in which they might not yet be able to handle and or may potentially put them in danger.

It's stepping out of a plane wrapped in nylon that puts them in that situation. They decide to do that on their own. And they're not unwitting. Everyone I trained knows what can go wrong and what they should do about it if it happens.

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The "rules" that you mentioned are rules established by the suit manufacturers in the same manner in which parachute and rig manufacturers in this industry commonly use for their products. In other words, it is an industry standard or norm. These same rules are also condoned by the USPA, which is the governing body for all parachutists in the USA.

Not all wingsuit manufacturers want their users to follow your rules. And the uspa absolutely does not govern all parachutists in the USA.

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The statement about cock size is sophomoric and at best is an indication of a lack of maturity, which would in part explain the inability to grasp the gravity of being concerned for others safety. If you ask me, it's people who balk at the rules just because they are rules that have the need to set themselves apart to feel special.

Yup. I agree with all that. Nick seems to be more concerned with giving people the information and letting them decide for themselves what is an acceptable level of risk rather than trying to keep them safe.

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Every heard of the butterfly effect? So what happens when they go to a big turbine DZ or boogie thats drastically different from a 182 DZ and they think they are good to go in their wingsuit or even ready to fly in flocks?

I'll tell you exactly what happens. Last summer one guy had about 100 jumps and did his first flight with me. Then he did solos filling the extra slot on tandem loads and we did 2 ways whenever we could get on the same load for most of the summer. Then we went to Summerfest where he got his first taste of real "turbine flocking" with you as the organizer. He chased the flock around a bit at first but he got better and better as the boogie went on. I didn't hear anyone bitching about his flying there. In fact one of the last jumps we made at that boogie was his 200th. A 12 way that you organized. Then in January we did a bunch of nice 10 and 12ish ways at the Everglades Boogie with Heffro organizing and he flew his slot just fine. I'm guessing it went a lot like it would have if he'd had 600 jumps when he started.

Another guy started after Summerfest with even less jumps. He did some solos and 2 & 3 ways with us and came to the Everglades Boogie. He had some trouble at first matching the fallrate with the forward speed of the flock, but he finally started to figure it out toward the end of the boogie. Then he went to FnD and he decided on his own to stay with the smaller "Flocking Skills Group". And again, I've never heard anyone bring up any safety issues regarding his flying.

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Does this make sense now or do you really not give a damn about how your actions may effect other human beings?

Of course I care about everyone I jump with. I just think you need to realize that not everybody is an idiot that needs someone like you to protect them from themselves.

[LouDiamond 1]

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I'll tell you exactly what happens. Last summer one guy had about 100 jumps and did his first flight with me. Then he did solos filling the extra slot on tandem loads and we did 2 ways whenever we could get on the same load for most of the summer. Then we went to Summerfest where he got his first taste of real "turbine flocking" with you as the organizer.

And this is where you, that individual and I had this discussion in person for a good deal of time at the bar. It was evident to me during that conversation that the individual mentioned clearly did not know what he did not know based off of his responses and facial expressions during the entire conversation. In the end, it was clear that he and I shared the same outlook on safety and an instructors responsibility to his students be it WS, tandem or even BASE, which is quite different than yours. So what does that make him and what did this prove? It makes him lucky because up until that point in time he had gotten very lucky and hadn't had to deal with any serious issues, which won't always be the case for others. It proves that when an individual is made aware of the things that they don't know about, they tend to think more about their safety vs the risk.

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I just think you need to realize that not everybody is an idiot that needs someone like you to protect them from themselves.

I am concerned about the people who don't know what they don't know and with providing those people with the best instruction and advice possible. While I do think about the idiots and hope they one day get it, my over riding concern is that an idiot will either hurt someone else or put someone else in a situation where they could potentially be hurt. It's never the idiot that gets hurt but those around him. It's already been said in this thread, it just takes a serious incident to ruin it for the entire WS community.


If being concerned with others well being and safety on skydives makes me uncool then I'm resigned to being uncool.

"It's just skydiving..additional drama is not required"
Some people dream about flying, I live my dream
SKYMONKEY PUBLISHING

[Hagen 0]

the funny thing is that, I think, all the arguing parties in the conversation AGREE about safety and related questions. the problem is that wingsuit may be unsafe for a person with over 500 jumps on his or her account - through million reasons, - while it may be relatively safe for a person with low number of jumps. and it seems to me that it depends mostly on the person's readiness to the risks of skyflying and wish to do exactly this, not some other things in skydiving.

as to safety of other people... well, that's my instructor who doesn't let me fly with others yet - and I understand why, and I completely agree with him. I think when it comes to big boogies and formations, more experienced flyers should just pay more attention to newcomers' experience. if you believe that someone if not ready to group flying - just don't let the person in the flock. isn't that simple? (or just sounds stupid?)

anyway, I really don't think that people should be encouraged to break rules laid down, as I believe, not just by manufacturers but by practice and long term experience in the field (to tell the truth, I feel quite guilty for breaking them myself; but it happened, and I cannot turn back and change it). but at the same time, the rule breakers already exist, and the new ones will appear in the future. so isn't it better to pay more attention to people's experience before flying with them instead of just cursing the misbehaviors?

hope I'll be allowed to some flock one day