freeflysoul 0 #1 June 19, 2008 I'm just having a discussion on the italian skydiving forum with a guy (not a BMI or PFI or whatsoever)who's teaching WS to students. He's asserting that he requires that his students must jump in Atmo before to take the WS course... I'm concerned about this and I think that Atmo is not similar to WS except for the orizzontal awareness it requires... What is your opinion about this? The original post of this guy is the #9 on the original thread HERE (sorry, only in Italian... maybe Babelfish can help...) 3,2,1,C-YA!!! V. BASE #1075 / BMI #I-002 / PFI #042 / EGI #104 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
mccordia 73 #2 June 19, 2008 Ive had a few students with Atmo experience, and can honestly say those have been some of the best flyers Ive had on first jumps. Both in terms of awereness and bodyposition (flight speed/time). Though this is of course not a guide, as every person is different, there is definately something to say for atmonauti as wingsuit preperation. Though atmo flies (arguably) the same trajectory as a trackingjump, but in a steeper body position (for more manouvrebilty), this gives you exactly the same angle for burbles and flying/no fly zone as a wingsuit jump. And also in terms of body position, the inputs used for stearing are quite the same as in a wingsuit. And (unlike people wasting tons of jumps on solo tracking to 'train' for wingsuit flying) these people tend to have quite a good awereness with regards to where other people are (having the same view around as you would have in a wingsuit). So yes, I wouldnt make it manditory. But from what Ive seen and experienced...a good base in Atmo/angled flight CAN be a definately asset when you want transition to flying a wingsuit. So to answer your question, yes I think I also agree with him that one or more atmonauti jumps can serve as good checkout jump/evaluation before taking someone to the sky in a wingsuit. JC FlyLikeBrick I'm an Athlete? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
aarthus 0 #3 June 19, 2008 Quote the same trajectory as a trackingjump, but in a steeper body position (for more manouvrebilty), I like this.....We should do more atmo, have a look at the pic below, nice gripped lines......Patrick de Guillebon Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
mccordia 73 #4 June 19, 2008 I think thats mostly a deal of flying grips, instead of hanging on grips... But like most things...easier sayd that done...and nothing 5000 jumps wont fix JC FlyLikeBrick I'm an Athlete? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
bodypilot1 0 #5 June 19, 2008 Quote Quote the same trajectory as a trackingjump, but in a steeper body position (for more manouvrebilty), I like this.....We should do more atmo, have a look at the pic below, nice gripped lines...... In the first pic, the guy flying on his back seems to be tracking. He must have miss understood what the skydive was........www.WestCoastWingsuits.com www.PrecisionSkydiving.com Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
mccordia 73 #6 June 19, 2008 Quote In the first pic, the guy flying on his back seems to be tracking. He must have miss understood what the skydive was........ As to somone flying a normal belly/back track in a certain dive...In the end it doesnt matter how you fly. As long as you get there. Do it in a tracking or atmo body position..whatever you want... Atmonauti and tracking can fly at the same relative angle of attack/track, its a body position and body angle...Im not talking marco-anal about specific angles of flight etc. The thing discussed here is flying your body at a steep angle to the horizon. Not the usual layed out flat (only tilted a few degrees) tracking most people do in skydiving. Getting back on topic, the steep angle of flying turns your viewing range, and body position into something matching wingsuit flight, as well as having the same burbles etc (just with the whole picture tilted 45 degrees). Lets leave the whole sad discussion on the sense or non-sense on what 'atmo' is out of this discussion, and just call it 'steep tracking' if that makes you sleep better at night..JC FlyLikeBrick I'm an Athlete? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
bodypilot1 0 #7 June 19, 2008 I wasn't looking for an expanation..... Before they called it freeflying, we were going head down, and the same goes for the different angles of tracking. www.WestCoastWingsuits.com www.PrecisionSkydiving.com Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
mccordia 73 #8 June 19, 2008 Quote I wasn't looking for an expanation..... Before they called it freeflying Im sorry...but not everybody started skydiving when dinosaurs still roamed the earth Quote we were going head down, and the same goes for the different angles of tracking. Yea..same thing for Birdman jumps...which are now renamed to 'wingsuit jumps' (even though every whuffy still sayd birdman), with the added question if you're an aerobatic flyer, flocker, proximity flyer, floater or distance flyer..As long as the critter as a name, and everyone knows what you mean when you use that name...I dont see the problem..though freefly and atmonauti both seem to have copyrights owned by the inventors..so maybe we should find some other names.. Or damnit..I chould register the dicipline name 'Birdman'..ooh wait...JC FlyLikeBrick I'm an Athlete? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
VectorBoy 0 #9 June 20, 2008 Quote I wasn't looking for an expanation..... Before they called it freeflying, we were going head down, and the same goes for the different angles of tracking. Don't be a hater! Just because you didn't invent it like...... But back to atmo before wingsuit question, yes its a splendid idea. Lets face it some of the big way stuff is pretty steep anyway. Yes it should be mandatory. It should be mandatory before you get a D license. I love the Atmo its groovy!!! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
bodypilot1 0 #10 June 20, 2008 Quote Quote I wasn't looking for an expanation..... Before they called it freeflying, we were going head down, and the same goes for the different angles of tracking. Quote Don't be a hater! Dont get me wrong. I'm no hater. Here's an example..... Say your born with cock n balls, but you started shaving your legs, wearing a dress and wanted to be called Margret........... I'd be the guy that still called you Glen. Got it? www.WestCoastWingsuits.com www.PrecisionSkydiving.com Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
VectorBoy 0 #11 June 20, 2008 you started shaving your legs, .......... I'd be the guy that still called you Glen. Got it? Hypothetically or otherwise, no I don't get it. But I'm lazy. Too lazy to shave the parts that need shaving as it is and hypothetically Glen works for either gender, so hypothetically I would stick with it, cuz I'm lazy. I dropped the second N because of lazyness. If I find a way to drop the E without effecting the overall sound I would do it. Margret sounds like all kinds of extra work. Just like shaving this.... its hard... like carbon fiber you can't just shave carbon fiber away. Atmo hater! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
bodypilot1 0 #12 June 20, 2008 Quote Atmo hater! Do you think you could add me to the wiki as that Margret? www.WestCoastWingsuits.com www.PrecisionSkydiving.com Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
VectorBoy 0 #13 June 20, 2008 Sure, call me Marge for short. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
RJmoney 0 #14 June 20, 2008 atmo is a good idea for prep i would think. more importantly who is this marco-anal guy you are talking about?word to your mother, RJ$$ BASE 1117 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
pierre3636 0 #15 June 20, 2008 oh gawd atmo discussion again! for less experienced new WS first jump students i insist on a tracking dive with them before. i check and manage the exit body position, practise touches, pattern they fly and wave off and break off... ~ time is ~ time was ~ times past ~ Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
freeflysoul 0 #16 June 20, 2008 Oh my God... It is not my intention to open again another Atmo/track thread! The point I'm concerned about is that a guy without any WS manufacturer "certification" is changing the WS instruction standard courses, arguing about the utility of the BMI/PFI etc programs... that's 4 me a strange thing since only having a standard instruction procedure is possible to give proper instruction to students... I think Atmo would be good 4 the orizzontal awareness, but is not indispensable 4 a WS course... but also a tracking jump would be good as well... Or am I wrong? (easy it is... ) 3,2,1,C-YA!!! V. BASE #1075 / BMI #I-002 / PFI #042 / EGI #104 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
mccordia 73 #17 June 20, 2008 I dont think the lack of 'certification' is anything you should worry about (though lets not open that can of worms again as well). The guy is doing checkout jumps before putting people in a wingsuit, in a dicipline that resembles wingsuit flight more than a normal trackingjump. Its a good thing...JC FlyLikeBrick I'm an Athlete? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
VectorBoy 0 #18 June 20, 2008 Quoteoh gawd atmo discussion again! Yes, some people think its killing free fly. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
pierre3636 0 #19 June 20, 2008 i agree its a good thing ... as long as ....you dont have to own a red Italian sports car, tight fitting pants, battlestar galactica helmut ect .... HEE HEE sorry couldnt resist! ~ time is ~ time was ~ times past ~ Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
freeflysoul 0 #20 June 20, 2008 Just to avoid misunderstandings... I don't say Atmo is not useful... I think that tracking jumps are good aswell 4 taking awareness of the orizzontal flight... And, I just say that I don't like that a guy without any "certification" (how strange is this term... ) can doubt about manufacturers instruction procedures... Pasted from the original thread (I bet it will be deleted in few minutes... ), this is a post from that guy (original link: http://www.paracadutismo.it/forum/showpost.php?p=53205&postcount=14 ): Quote Non capisco perché se dite calmiamo i toni, poi Vi esprimete con un linguaggio triviale. Riguardo a voler "volare" la tuta alare con una posizione "STRETTAMENTE" Atmo non ho detto questo, ed infatti anche Voi concordate che però si potrebbe fare, ma io dico che si può fare in determinate circostanze, (Forse hai ragione sulla premessa tra Atmo e tuta alare, ebbene si può usare la tecnica Atmo, con la tuta alare, anche con meno angolo e diversa conformazione, così come ha spiegato sopra Marco T.). Mi riferisco all'importanza propedeutica dell'Atmo per chi dopo dovrà usare la tuta alare, perché credo che insegni a saltare dall'uscita e durante il lancio in equilibrio instabile, cosa che uno normalmente non ha mai fatto, ecc. Per quanto riguarda i Costruttori, sono daccordo con Voi che è gente che ci sa fare sia a terra che in aria, però dovreste sapere che sono state messe in commercio tuta alari con le quali puoi andare in "vite piatta", basta una depressione in scia o una cattiva uscita, ecc. E sono state messe in commercio tute alari con le quali non vai in "vite piatta" nemmeno se tu volessi, e questo è un fattore di SICUREZZA passiva per se stessi e per gli altri di notevole importanza. Allora che pensare...? Ditemelo Voi! Babelfish translation (with some necessary corrections ): Quote I do not understand because if you say we calm the tones, then you express yourselves with a trivial language. With regard to wanting “to fly” the wing coveralls with a position “CLOSELY” Atmo I have not said this, and in fact also You agree that but could be made, but I say that he can be made in determined circumstances, (I perhaps have reason on the premise between Atmo and wing coveralls, well the Atmo technique can be used, with the wing coveralls, also with less angle and various conformation, thus as it has explained over Mark T.). I refer to the propedeutica importance of the Atmo for who after will have to use the wing coveralls, because creed that standards to jump from the escape and during the launch in unstable equilibrium, what that never it has normally not made, etc Regarding the Constructors, I agree with You that it is people skilled on the earth and in air, but you would have to know that they have been put in commerce wingsuits with which you can go in “flat spin”, enough a depression in wake or an exited bad one, etc And they have been put in commerce coverallses andirons with which you do not go in “flat spin” not even if you wanted, and this is a passive safety factor for if same and the others of remarkable importance. Then that to think…? You to me say it! I've just said on that post I teach to my students following manufacturers procedure since I'm not skilled enough to change it, while I think that procedure is the result of years of tests... 3,2,1,C-YA!!! V. BASE #1075 / BMI #I-002 / PFI #042 / EGI #104 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
bodypilot1 0 #21 June 20, 2008 Quote Oh my God... It is not my intention to open again another Atmo/track thread! The point I'm concerned about is that a guy without any WS manufacturer "certification" is changing the WS instruction standard courses, arguing about the utility of the BMI/PFI etc programs... that's 4 me a strange thing since only having a standard instruction procedure is possible to give proper instruction to students... I think Atmo would be good 4 the orizzontal awareness, but is not indispensable 4 a WS course... but also a tracking jump would be good as well... Or am I wrong? (easy it is... ) For the jumpers that take my ws course, and have under 500 jumps, For years have always required a "mock" ws jump, for exit, body positioning, practice touches and flight patterns. The "mock" jump also lets me know if they are not ready to fly a ws as well. Maybe I'll start calling it a Mockmonaughty........Whatcha think Marge? www.WestCoastWingsuits.com www.PrecisionSkydiving.com Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
VectorBoy 0 #22 June 20, 2008 Whatcha think Marge? Well for one, around here we don't call it the winged coveralls. We call it "jumping the cape". Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Tony-tonysuits 0 #23 June 20, 2008 QuoteI'm just having a discussion on the italian skydiving forum with a guy (not a BMI or PFI or whatsoever)who's teaching WS to students. He's asserting that he requires that his students must jump in Atmo before to take the WS course... I'm concerned about this and I think that Atmo is not similar to WS except for the orizzontal awareness it requires... What is your opinion about this? The original post of this guy is the #9 on the original thread HERE (sorry, only in Italian... maybe Babelfish can help...) I think learning every discipline is vital to becoming a good skydiver, it doesn't take long to get fairly good at any discipline to where your doing RW and having fun, all round awareness is gradual just dont do big ways till you feel good, For wingsuiting I wouldn't say Atmo was necessary, not on your belly, would help with backflying probablyLife is a series of wonderful opportunities, brilliantly disguised as impossible situations. tonysuits.com Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
