Flat Spin Musings

[ScottGray 0]

We all know the various methods for flat spin recovery taught during the first flight course(s).

What methods have worked best for you and have you found that the recovery method might/should differ depending on the suit???

The ones I have been in I have luckily flown out of, once I created some wind speed and transitioned from my back to my belly. : )

The purpose of the question is to re-validate the methods being taught, specifically in light of evolving flight and equipment dynamics.

WSI-5 / PFI-51 / EGI-112 / S-Fly
The Brothers Gray Wing Suit Academy
Contact us for first flight and basic flocking courses at your DZ or boogie.
www.thebrothersgray.com

[VectorBoy 0]

The only time I've ever witnessed a flat spin was myself without a wingsuit on my back arms and legs quartered out and spinning flat and fast. The harder I pulled in my arms or legs to ball up the faster the spin got and the G forces would lay me back out flat more tired than before. The proper recovery technique I learned was to go into The delta position, which is the pose you would be in a wingsuit.

I have seen a ton of nose down spirals, head low inverted augers and hard side spins out the door, sometimes I do those for fun, but have never seen or been able to replicate a true flat spin in a wingsuit.

[ScottGray 0]

Thanks VB -

I have had two flat spins, one being more fun than anything. The second was induced by a barrel roll at very low horizontal speed and I was a little lazy with the wing position (NOT RECOMMENDED).

I agree that in some spins, pulling arms and legs in can result in the spin rate increasing (much like a figure skater). Other pilots I have talked to agree.

I do not claim to be an engineer and I will not go into the physics, in very simplistic terms, one wing is fly and the other is not. There is also the issue about where the center of gravity is. Aircraft with the center of gravity more toward the rear of the plane, with respect to the wing, are more prone to flat spins.

The typically aircraft recovery process is to nose down attempting to create positive wind flow over BOTH wings restoring control. ALL YOU PILOTS & EXPERTS out there, please stay on topic here, no need to debate the physics here.

First flight courses discuss creating opposite inputs to the spin, balling up, arching, and other such methods.

To the extent we can alter our center of gravity and or orientation to the ground in a controled way, this may provide a more controlled method to recovery from a spin.

IMHO - Closing the arm wings, keeping the leg wing completely open and pushing the head torward the ground ----->>> moving into a head down orientation would produce a dive and also reduce the spin rate across the yaw axis. This would create wind flow allowing the deployment of the arm wings and the ability to fly in a controlled fashion out of the spin.

Jeff does a lot of test flights to include spin recovery on new suit designs, and I expect Omar has a fair amount of knowledge in head down wingsuit flight. Perhaps they can comment here.

WSI-5 / PFI-51 / EGI-112 / S-Fly
The Brothers Gray Wing Suit Academy
Contact us for first flight and basic flocking courses at your DZ or boogie.
www.thebrothersgray.com

[LouDiamond 1]

One of the topics I spent a considerable amount of time talking about during my wingsuit seminar at PIA was flat spins and breaking down why it happens and how to properly recover from it in the least amount of time. I don't have the time to type all of that out so I suggest you check out some of the videos on SDM that show real flat spins if you haven't already done so. There are about 4 of them, 2 from outside video and 2 from inside video.

I won't go into the recovery methods here as it has been discussed previously and can be found by doing a search. I will say that in at least 2 of the 4 videos, it is easy to see that the flat spin was stopped and recovery possible due to the jumper balling up and returning to a stomach to earth orientation. The other 2 show the jumper trying to fight the flat spin and doing everything other than balling up. In both cases the jumpers lost significant altitude and one came close to a fatality had they not finially stopped the spin and rolled over and pulled. In both of those cases the jumpers did not try to return to a stomach to earth orientation and they also released their wings. From the video it is clearly evident that the speed of the spin increased noticably after the wings had been released and that assuming a supine position with all the wings closed down along thier sides turned them into one big propeller that continued to spin.

Let me caveat the above statement by saying that I am refering to real, out of control,violent flat spins, not the tumbling, corkscrewing out of the sky instability most confuse with a flat spin.

Scott, the next time we see each other I can show you the presentation and go into more depth if you want.

"It's just skydiving..additional drama is not required"
Some people dream about flying, I live my dream
SKYMONKEY PUBLISHING

[ScottGray 0]

Thanks much Scott. Appreciate the comments.

The SDM vids are a great resource. We use them during our formal classroom sessions of our first flight course.

Your assessment of the actions of the pilots during the videos match mine. The one of the V2 barrel roll and low recovery is specifically on point here.

The one of the girl exiting the skyvan demonstrates how doing nothing will intensify the problem, and only once cutting away the wings and forceing into a belly to earth orientation (with significant altitude loss) was she able to recover and go into a regular skydive.

Common sense and lessons learned from aircraft flat spin recovery would suggest the sooner you can move to an orientation where the control surfaces of the suit can allow striaght and control flight the better. In other words, the pilot needs to generate forward wind speed (e.g. move into a dive, given there is enough altitude). Of course absolutely remembering that if unrecoverable, the pilot MUST orient themselves as much belly to earth as possible and deploy, then deal with the result.

Would very much like to see what you have put together.

WSI-5 / PFI-51 / EGI-112 / S-Fly
The Brothers Gray Wing Suit Academy
Contact us for first flight and basic flocking courses at your DZ or boogie.
www.thebrothersgray.com

[IslandGuy 0]

Only time I really got out of control (tumbled and spun) was when I got nailed on exit and my goggles were kicked down over my eyes blinding me so I couldn't see which way was up.

Had to fix the goggle problem first which wasn't as easy as I thought it was going to be - arms and hands had a tendency to go wherever they wanted as the apparent wind kept hitting them from different directions. Mach 1 and lots of wing area.

Once that was done I was able to get the flight under control rather quickly - can't really remember the specifics on how. I do remember that there was a lot more angular momentum and/or windmilling to deal with than I would have thought.

It worked out ok and I was able to get back to the flock.

-Mike

Play like your life depends on it.

[willpower 0]

Yeah, so I have only a few flights, and I just can't seem to get into a flatspin, no matter how wild my exit is (us poor Africans flocking out of Cessna's, wildly diving out after each other). I find it very hard not to just move with the initial barrelroll or spin, pick a heading (maybe the plane) and just fly out of it. What gives?

I think balling up is the worst advice possible. Maybe close and straighten legs and open the arms so one can use them to counter the momentum.

Although specifyng how to get out of a flatspin is rather like working out how to get up from the ground after falling - i.e. there are many ways to skin a cat. It's way easier to discuss what not to do, like...nothing...or ball up...or go to sleep.

just some thoughts.

things are not as they appear, nor are they otherwise

[phoenixlpr 0]

What suit are you flying?

I fly a Phantom. Its really easy to get back under control if I do a big arch and loosen my leg wing, everything goes back to normal than I can return to normal flight position.

I think that the wider leg stand can improve stability of the suit.

[ROK 0]

Quote

What suit are you flying?

I fly a Phantom. Its really easy to get back under control if I do a big arch and loosen my leg wing, everything goes back to normal than I can return to normal flight position.

I think that the wider leg stand can improve stability of the suit.

I agree.

I hooked my foot coming out the door and went into a serious spin. Ryan was watching and said that he got the hell away from me because he didn't know if I was going to deploy.

It seemed that everything I did made me spin faster. Collapsing my wings, balling up, etc. I was belly to sky and went into as big an arch as I could with my legs together. I flipped over and stopped spinning. Looked at my altimeter and saw that I had eaten up right at 7000' in that spin...

[IslandGuy 0]

Quote

Yeah, so I have only a few flights, and I just can't seem to get into a flatspin, no matter how wild my exit

Try closing your eyes and doing something different, like tumble/roll out of the plane, or doing a double roll or rolling onto your back.

Tell us how it goes.

Play like your life depends on it.

[bdrake529 0]

I've seen a fair number of videos of flat spins, but have only observed one personally.

I was flying a 2-way and we were working on barrel rolls. I'd barrel roll, then tag the base's hand (now I'm base) and then he'd barrel roll and tag my hand and so on. I warned the other guy to keep his leg wing collapsed for the roll, as I know from experience an open leg wing will tend to throw you for a 180 on your back.

Sure enough, on his first attempt, he had his leg wing open (he was flying a Classic) and I remember thinking to myself, this will be fun to watch. As predicted, he spun around on his back. But then to my surprise, he spun again. And again. And again. He kept spinning faster and looked like a helpless turtle on its back.

Of course he started falling like a rock so I collapsed my wings and went into steep dive to keep up. The spinning was so violent and he looked so helpless, I began to wonder if I was going to observe someone's death (not a very pleasant thought). Slowly, I watched as he struggled to bring his arms and knees in (the centrifugal force looked to be making this difficult) until finally he was balled up. From this position he was able to roll over onto his belly and upon opening his wings, he experienced some wobbling and rocking, but eventually became stable.

To his credit, he recovered on our original heading somehow. I pulled out of my dive, put on the brakes and settled directly next to him. He looked surprised to see me since he was oblivious to my whereabouts during his ordeal. I figured that counted as his "turn", so acting as nothing had happened, I barrel rolled, tagged his hand, and then it was break off altitude.

I have to admit, I tend to agree with those who criticize the "balling up" method. But it saved this guy so maybe it's worthwhile to know.

Brian Drake