critique my backflying!

[The111 0]

I'm just now learning to backfly, in an S3. Attached are frame grabs from two different jumps. Here's the weird thing.

In the first one, I was able to get my legwing almost all the way open, and the fallrate was in the 70's. This is the only time I've ever hit this position/fallrate.

In the second one, my legwing was only halfway open or so, and if I tried to open it more it sent me into a dive. This is the position/fallrate I normally get when I try.

My body seems pretty straight in both pics. You COULD point out that my head is higher in the second pic because of where the cameraman is, but I don't think that is it, because earlier in the jump he was over me and the fallrate/leg position were the same. I also tried pushing my hips and chest up, but it just sent me into a dive too, and in the first picture I was not pushing hips/chest up.

My theory: in the second picture, my arms are not fully extended (outwards). I was focusing so much on pushing them DOWN that I was forgetting to push them OUT. And without enough arm extension you won't be able to get full leg extension, right? That first picture is from the only time I really felt like backflying was clicking in my S3, and when I compare it to others it does seem like all my wings (arms and legs) are further out in that one.

www.WingsuitPhotos.com

[SkymonkeyONE 3]

You look bent pretty far forward in the second pic. Try getting flatter, like laying on a bed with your arms out.

[DaMan 0]

Like SM1 said - looks like you are not flat...look at the 1st one and you can see how much more "hip high" you are compared to the 2nd.

As far as the extending, you have to extend equally with arms and legs...maybe you are starting with the legs before the arms(?)

Z-Flock 8
Discotec Rodriguez

Too bad weapons grade stupidity doesn't lead to sterility.

[The111 0]

Out of curiosity, what sort of fallrates (roughly, good body type) are possible in an S3 on your back?

www.WingsuitPhotos.com

[Buried 0]

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Out of curiosity, what sort of fallrates (roughly, good body type) are possible in an S3 on your back?

On the few s3 jumps I've got (<10 i think) I've been able to get low 60's backflying.

I've found the best thing to try doing is to use your arms to extend the wing outwards then push back. Usually a good position is when they are just past your lower back - like if you were going to reach in a pull your hackey. Then work with your legs - push on your heels pretty hard. without bending your knees. Legs first will put you headdown and then it's harder to get your arms into the correct position.

Where is my fizzy-lifting drink?

[LouDiamond 1]

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I'm just now learning to backfly, in an S3.

Pic 1 is kind of hard to really see whats going on but what is apparent in both is that your looking at the cameraman in both which will cause you to pike at the waist. The 2nd photo looks better although your arm/leg wings are not fully extended and you appear to be hips low. Instead of writing out a long explanation, since I know you already have a book, turn to page 126 and compare what you were doing to what is described. From your description and what I saw at the Z-flock, you're getting you leg wing open before you have your arm wings open and it is causing the dive you experienced. This can be even more pronounced on the PHI and Firebird who's tail wings will inflate rapidly when flown on their back. The cure is to properly present the arm wings fully before extending the tail wing all the way. Nice cam helmet

"It's just skydiving..additional drama is not required"
Some people dream about flying, I live my dream
SKYMONKEY PUBLISHING

[mccordia 73]

Collapsing my legwing a bit.
That's also what made a world of difference for me (both for barrel rolls and backflying)

In the beginning I never closed the legwing when 'roling over', and that ended up costing me a lot of altitude.
Once I started doing that it got easyer.
In the beginning you could also try backflying it out of the door (something that seemed easyer to me, instead of flipping over in full flight in the beginning)

Once you get it flying on your back (mostly on your arms) it gets easyer to push out and open up your legwing.

After 20 to 30 seconds of backflying my right arm sort of gives out (recent motorcycle accident)..it feels heavyer then flying on your belly...

Also pay attention to people 'trying' to guide you...otherwise you might end up backflying a flock into the north sea

JC
FlyLikeBrick
I'm an Athlete?

[Jiggs 0]

Edit - Damn photo is to large - have an excellent quality shot of some backflying - will try to make smaller or can some techo person do it? I'll email it across

"Don't blame malice for what stupidity can explain."

"In our sleep, pain that cannot forget falls drop by drop upon the heart and in our despair, against our will comes wisdom" - Aeschylus

[dragon2 0]

Yeah, if it's no bigger than 10 mb you can mail it to me.

ciel bleu,
Saskia

[NWPoul 1]

Dragon2, Jiggs

So, when we'll be able to see that pic?:) (BTW if I can help - I'll try to convert image too;) )

P.S. Someone who trying (or planing to try) backflying too:)...

Why drink and drive, if you can smoke and fly?

[The111 0]

Jarno's avatar looks like a pretty good example (bigger version Jarno? ), and I'll have to agree with what he said - it is definitely hard on the arms, in my S3 at least. I worked on it some more this weekend and was doing good but getting exhausted and unable to hold my arms out all the way. It was this way right side up though when I first got the S3, and after a couple dozen jumps I got used to it, so I'll just keep on flying and get used to it upside down too. :)

www.WingsuitPhotos.com

[mccordia 73]

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Jarno's avatar looks like a pretty good example (bigger version Jarno? )

Here ya go..(attached)

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and I'll have to agree with what he said - it is definitely hard on the arms, in my S3 at least. ***

What was hardest to me was to get the right pressure on the arms wings, so I could fully open up the leg-wing.
In the beginning I was flying it with my legwing closed halfway, which flies pretty stable, but goes down pretty fast.
It took a few jumps to learn and fly it completely 'openend up'

Putting my head back (something I'm not doing in these pics) and stretching my back, so I'm completely flat, helped a ton.
But I'm also still learning...

We should try and get Andy Ford to post here..if there's anyone that can comment on backflying, it's him.
And seeing Omars recent video's, he's also one that could probably shed some more light on the best way to learn...?

There's also an older thread somewhere (where I was asking for tips on learning to backfly

JC
FlyLikeBrick
I'm an Athlete?

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[cpoxon 0]

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Putting my head back (something I'm not doing in these pics) and stretching my back, so I'm completely flat, helped a ton.

Not just flat but arched is the best position. Think about what is the best position on your belly, cupped with a nice angle to get the speed going. Now think how that can be replicated on your back. If you are flat and looking up or towards your feet you are not even half-way there. Get the flock above and ahead of the base, looking back down (since we know looking forward or up is a less than optimal position) allowing the base to tip his head back and arch his back. When the flockers do this, Fordy can outfly most people on his back.

I don't have an ideal picture (I may go back through my tapes and find one) but here is one I dug out from an old post. It really doesn't represent what I'm talking baout so I'm going to have to dig one out of the maestro.

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We should try and get Andy Ford to post here..if there's anyone that can comment on backflying, it's him.

Yeah, come on Andy, I know you've seen this thread! :-P

Skydiving Fatalities - Cease not to learn 'til thou cease to live

[OmarPR 0]

Well, I guess you guys do pretty much what I do. I am only 5 foot 8 inches and 145 pounds and currently fly a GTI (easy suit), so I don't really have too much trouble back flying and I can get away with a less than perfect body position. I always fly video so I don't always fly in an ideal flat position. I normally don't have to worry about a "maxed out" position because I am floaty by nature (can do 80-90mph w\o ws). My main concern is to have fun with others and get others to have fun with me while keeping a good fall rate. My technique is based on self thought 'little tricks' and trial and error. In other words I have no true techinique. I'm not a technical ws flyer. I guess I am the equivalent of a 'soul surfer'. What works for me is what feels good for me.

I have seen Matt back-fly first hand and he is doing very well, and better every time.

P.S.

Hey Jarno, PM me when you get a chance. I need to ask you about what we talked about a long time ago (you probably forgot by now).

WINGSUIT ACROBATICS team O zone
ZF#5 , HISPA#70
Blue Skies...
...Big Fat Clouds

[The111 0]

Thanks for the picture and the explanations. Not to sound like an arm-chair quarterback when I'm the one asking for help, but I actually know, in my head, what the optimal position looks like, I just can't make it happen, yet. So I just wanted to see if anyone could offer a fresh perspective based on the pics I posted, knowing full well what is wrong with the position, just curious how I can more easily fix it.

But I'm getting closer with each jump. The thing that usually happens is when I try to arch at the chest, look up/forward (forward meaning in direction of flight) and open my legwing fully, I end up going headdown. However, there are many variables involved in this balancing act, which eventually will become reflex, and my guess is I'm trying to arch too much. Exactly this same thing happened when learning to fly slow on my belly (leave the criticisms of slow flight goals out of this ). I couldn't get below 50mph for a long time. People always said "dearch at the hips" and every time I tried, it sent me headdown. Turned out I was dearching too much. I finally found the balance point, and can now hit mid/upper 30's.

So I'm sure all I need is a couple dozen more jumps (slow learner) before I find that perfect balance point. I've accidentally hit it a few times now and felt my leg wing stretched completely tight. But I can't hit it every time, just like I couldn't hit slow belly flight every time when I first learned.

www.WingsuitPhotos.com

[The111 0]

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I'm not a technical ws flyer. I guess I am the equivalent of a 'soul surfer'. What works for me is what feels good for me.

Sure you're technical. Soul surfers care about surfing well, they just don't care about competition/acclaim. You may not like analyzing every tiny body movement you make when you fly, but it's certainly highly technical flying, even if you use instinct more than thought. I think we all fly on instinct eventually, but since I'm over-analytical, whenever I learn something new, I try to think my way into it rather than just feel it out. That's how my "right-side-up" progression went, and now I'm starting over with upside down.

www.WingsuitPhotos.com

[OmarPR 0]

So, O.K. You may be right barney.

B.T.W. I feel a little over-analized

WINGSUIT ACROBATICS team O zone
ZF#5 , HISPA#70
Blue Skies...
...Big Fat Clouds

[cpoxon 0]

Ah, okay sorry about that. How's your back tracking without a suit on? I'm not sure which is harder but I think it is without a suit.

I guess the obvious reason for going head down is not enough pressure on the legs, pushing the calves and heels down to keep ballanced. I guess the secret is keep practicing. Most people in this game are slow learners...as it should be ;-)

Skydiving Fatalities - Cease not to learn 'til thou cease to live

[dragon2 0]

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Edit - Damn photo is to large - have an excellent quality shot of some backflying - will try to make smaller or can some techo person do it? I'll email it across

Here ya go:

ciel bleu,
Saskia

[The111 0]

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How's your back tracking without a suit on?

Wait, you can jump without a wingsuit?

Seriously, I have made 10 jumps without a suit in the past year. And I really have never tried backtracking for performance (only at breakoff to check airspace), but one of these days I will.

www.WingsuitPhotos.com

[The111 0]

An update on my progress/observations:

Yesterday I realized I probably don't want my legwing wide open most of the time anyway. The reason I am learning to backfly is so I can shoot video of a flock from any angle, including underneath, obviously. Yesterday I made a couple jumps with one or two guys in GTi's flying base and me getting under them and shooting video. I was able to get my legwing open, but realized it was causing me to outdrive them like crazy.

Then it hit me: when I am flying with a flock on my belly, my legwing is never fully extended (or I would outdrive the flock). I have my knees bent, which does not translate well to backflying since knees only bend one way. I have seen many descriptions of how to fly efficiently (maxed out) on your back, but no descriptions of how to fly relative, i.e. overall flight controls.

For normal (right-side-up) wingsuit flying, the basic controls are as follows (tri-wing suit designs):

Fallrate - arms, hips, chest
Forward speed - legs
Turns/sideslip - arms, legs

Most of the controls for fallrate and turns seem to translate pretty well to backflying, but the forward speed is going to be a bit different due to the one-way knee thing I just mentioned. So I experimented with closing (partially, as needed) my legwing while backflying for forward speed control. It worked really well and I was still able maintain a 60-70mph fallrate (good flocking speed) and stay with the base, right underneath.

So it seemed to work, but I am curious what thoughts people have on this method of controlling drive (forward speed) while on your back. One of the GTi jumpers commented on my legwing being closed so much, and I explained why. He suggest leaving the wing open but bending at the knees for drive control, just like on your belly, only the knees will be bending downward rather than upward. I am not sure if that would work and I didn't get a chance to try it. So which is best for drive control on your back (while maintaining a fair fallrate):

1. Legwing open/close
2. Bend at knees, like on belly
3. Pick entire legs up, sticking your ass down - I don't like this idea since when I pike at the hips, it makes it harder to maintain a good flat position with the upper body.

So far I'm voting for #1...

I also continued to notice that I don't have the endurance to backfly efficiently for more than 40 seconds or so... very tiring on the arms in a way I'm not used to.

www.WingsuitPhotos.com

[The111 0]

Well, I'm making progress.

CLICK

Attempted 2-way backfly jump in the Keys. Obviously Scott has the position nailed, moreso than me at least. I checked my Neptune graph vs the video and at this point in the jump I was doing 44mph, and Scott was going even slower, since I was sinking out on him.

I've got decent fallrates down but am still struggling to fly relative to normal (i.e. not ridiculously slow) flocks. With legwing open I outdrive them, with it closed I outsink them. If my knees could bend the other way maybe I'd have a solution...

www.WingsuitPhotos.com